How strong is Kaioshin and Piccolo ( Boo saga )

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, just because a guidebook makes one or two mistakes doesn't mean you should completely write it off. It's supplementary material, and while you don't have to take it as the Bible for Dragon Ball or anything, it's still good to take into account when we're talking about things like this.

[LiamKav]

After watching the Cell Games recently, I sorta got the impression that Gohan's transformation was more like "what happens if you turn Super Saiyan while ALREADY Super Saiyan". It explains Goku's plan of making Super Saiyan their base forms. And it also explains why, after Goku teleports away with Cell, Gohan seems to revert so SS1 and then goes back to SS2 when he powers-up again after Cell appears.

The thinking behind it seems to change somewhat, especially after SS3 is introduced.

[Piccolo Daimao]

After watching the Cell Games recently, I sorta got the impression that Gohan's transformation was more like "what happens if you turn Super Saiyan while ALREADY Super Saiyan". It explains Goku's plan of making Super Saiyan their base forms. And it also explains why, after Goku teleports away with Cell, Gohan seems to revert so SS1 and then goes back to SS2 when he powers-up again after Cell appears.

The thinking behind it seems to change somewhat, especially after SS3 is introduced.

Yeah, that's what I thought too, but it doesn't explain how or why Gohan wasn't SS2 after the tournament.

[hleV]

*Edited.

Against Dabra, Gohan may've not been able to go SSJ2 because Kibito didn't restore his energy fully.
Against Boo, though? Maybe he decided to start off as a SSJ and go SSJ2 if it doesn't work, but didn't have a chance. He shoots the Kamehameha, it doesn't work. What now? Boo appears and is too strong for (presumably SSJ2) Gohan. So, Gohan decides to run along with Kaioshin. He tells that he's confident in his speed, so there's no big reason to go SSJ2, right? Boo catches up and Gohan's down.

So yeah, he:

• didn't have enough energy to go SSJ2;
• was stupid to not go SSJ2 after eating a Sensu;
• overestimated his SSJ1 speed;
• didn't have the chance to go SSJ2.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Against Dabra, Gohan may've not been able to go SSJ2 because Kibito didn't restore his energy fully.

Against Boo, though? Maybe he decided to start off as a SSJ and go SSJ2 if it doesn't work, but didn't have a chance. He shoots the Kamehameha, it doesn't work. What now? Boo appears and is too strong for (presumably SSJ2) Gohan. So, Gohan decides to run along with Kaioshin. He tells that he's confident in his speed, so there's no big reason to go SSJ2, right? Boo catches up and Gohan's down. So yeah, he:

1. was stupid to not go SSJ2 in the beginning;
2. overestimated his SSJ1 speed;
3. didn't have the chance to go SSJ2.

I like this explanation, I no longer believe that Gohan was SSJ2 after the TB.

[Super Vegetto]

As for my view on this debate, I don't think Toriyama not giving SSJ2 Gohan lightning later on was meant to be taken as an "accident" or a "mistake". I think it was done purposely to represent the power difference between Gohan's SSj2 with Goku & Vegeta's. Since he's shown that when a SSJ2 is at a lower level of power they're drawn with a weaker aura, and conversely, at a higher level of power, they have a stronger aura with added lightning bolts. It's not so different from how the previous SSJ1 had different auras depending on their power output.

"Lol, I can go SSJ2 and stomp Dabura but I won't because lol"

[Saiga]

Um... what? So you write off Daiz 7 for no reason at all other than the information isn't convenient for your argument and that's all fine and good but it's suddenly wrong of me to write off Daiz 2 for having an actual error in the section you want me to accept? Nah.

Comparing it to the manga doesn't even make sense: Yes, that's a plothole, it doesn't invalidate the entire thing. I'm just saying that if Daiz 2 clearly made a mistake, it's possible that it made more than 1.

[012yArthur0]

As for my view on this debate, I don't think Toriyama not giving SSJ2 Gohan lightning later on was meant to be taken as an "accident" or a "mistake". I think it was done purposely to represent the power difference between Gohan's SSj2 with Goku & Vegeta's. Since he's shown that when a SSJ2 is at a lower level of power they're drawn with a weaker aura, and conversely, at a higher level of power, they have a stronger aura with added lightning bolts. It's not so different from how the previous SSJ1 had different auras depending on their power output.

"Lol, I can go SSJ2 and stomp Dabura but I won't because lol"

Anyway, I think is because Gohan actually thought of the situation. If he was SSj2, it could easily give a energy boost to buu, make it hatch before they were to stop it.

However, in SSj, it uses far less energy and it was actually against Dabra (Which, for some reason, seemed to hold himself back too), so he could just endure itself all day long until Dabra's gives up or something, and it was a equal fight until Vegeta gives Gohan a verbal pwnage.

[Super Vegetto]

As for my view on this debate, I don't think Toriyama not giving SSJ2 Gohan lightning later on was meant to be taken as an "accident" or a "mistake". I think it was done purposely to represent the power difference between Gohan's SSj2 with Goku & Vegeta's. Since he's shown that when a SSJ2 is at a lower level of power they're drawn with a weaker aura, and conversely, at a higher level of power, they have a stronger aura with added lightning bolts. It's not so different from how the previous SSJ1 had different auras depending on their power output.

"Lol, I can go SSJ2 and stomp Dabura but I won't because lol"

Anyway, I think is because Gohan actually thought of the situation. If he was SSj2, it could easily give a energy boost to buu, make it hatch before they were to stop it.

However, in SSj, it uses far less energy and it was actually against Dabra (Which, for some reason, seemed to hold himself back too), so he could just endure itself all day long until Dabra's gives up or something, and it was a equal fight until Vegeta gives Gohan a verbal pwnage.

First of all he doesnt give energy to Majin boo if he is SSJ2. He gives him energy if some Majin slave or Dabura damages him.

Second of all he lost a lot of energy and Dabura was actualy wining. Goku stated that he didnt complitly lost but he clearly stated that he is loosing. He counted on Gohans anger to take place and finish Dabura.

Gohan has Mastered Super saiyan form, yet his power is stated to get lower and in time Dabura would probably killd him. SSJ2 is the form that is using more energy while Mastered SSJ is form that has a lot more stamina.
Its clearly that he used SSJ2 because he relized that he cant give energy to majin boo because Supreme kai clearly sad that, if he hold back also doesnt make sence because he actualy neads to kill Dabura because of Piccolo and Krillin, he didnt hold back because Dabura is little stronger than FP Perfect Cell who trashed FPSSJ Kid Gohan in his heavy suppressed state, and overall he is not stupid that he plays around in time like that.

[Bussani]

What if he attacked Dabura as a Super Saiyan 2 from the get go and it turned out Dabura was stronger, smacked him around, and fed a lot more energy to Buu? I think 012yArthur0's saying that Gohan was being cautious and not going all out from the start to avoid that.

[Saiga]

...but by not being a SS2 he'd just get smacked more.

[Bussani]

Maybe, but look at how quickly Buu's energy-meter-thing was filled up once Goku and Vegeta started fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Granted, we don't know how much energy Gohan gave to it during his fight with Dabura, but no one mentions it being a lot; and when they're wondering why it's full already, Gohan himself says, "Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't. Hit more or not, there's nothing implying it was as bad as those two fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan.

[Saiga]

Maybe, but look at how quickly Buu's energy-meter-thing was filled up once Goku and Vegeta started fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Granted, we don't know how much energy Gohan gave to it during his fight with Dabura, but no one mentions it being a lot; and when they're wondering why it's full already, Gohan himself says, "Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't. Hit more or not, there's nothing implying it was as bad as those two fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan.

That's because both combatants are SS2. Dabra is just Dabra, and SS1 Gohan is going to take more damage because of the larger power difference... unless Dabra is holding back for some insane reason.

[dprez]

Maybe, but look at how quickly Buu's energy-meter-thing was filled up once Goku and Vegeta started fighting at Super Saiyan 2. Granted, we don't know how much energy Gohan gave to it during his fight with Dabura, but no one mentions it being a lot; and when they're wondering why it's full already, Gohan himself says, "Dad and Vegeta must be fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is even greater!" He never says anything about himself fighting at such a level and contributing to that, which, some would say, makes it sound like he wasn't. Hit more or not, there's nothing implying it was as bad as those two fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan.

Great point. This one quote by Son Gohan really tells me he was not at that level himself.

[Bussani]

That's because both combatants are SS2. Dabra is just Dabra, and SS1 Gohan is going to take more damage because of the larger power difference... unless Dabra is holding back for some insane reason.

Well yeah, but what I said above was that Gohan might not know how strong Dabura was at first. He might have thought it was better to start weaker and test the waters first. And you say "Dabra is just Dabra", but isn't the argument that he was giving Super Saiyan 2 Gohan trouble, thus he would also be fighting at "a level beyond Super Saiyan"...? Maybe not as beyond Super Saiyan as Goku and Vegeta, but beyond Super Saiyan nonetheless.

[Saiga]

That's because both combatants are SS2. Dabra is just Dabra, and SS1 Gohan is going to take more damage because of the larger power difference... unless Dabra is holding back for some insane reason.

Well yeah, but what I said above was that Gohan might not know how strong Dabura was at first. He might have thought it was better to start weaker and test the waters first. And you say "Dabra is just Dabra", but isn't the argument that he was giving Super Saiyan 2 Gohan trouble, thus he would also be fighting at "a level beyond Super Saiyan"...? Maybe not as beyond Super Saiyan as Goku and Vegeta, but beyond Super Saiyan nonetheless.

No... because he doesn't have Super Saiyan forms. And starting out weaker is a bad idea, because that means he'll be more likely to take damage.

[Bussani]

No... because he doesn't have Super Saiyan forms.

What does that matter if he's as strong as a Super Saiyan 2? He'll hit just as hard and beat just as much energy out of Gohan. That's the whole point of this, isn't it? That Gohan was supposedly Super Saiyan 2, and thus Dabura was even stronger than that?

And starting out weaker is a bad idea, because that means he'll be more likely to take damage.

Yes, but he'd give less energy to Buu as a result of that damage. That might be better in the long run than going in at full power from the start, which could run the risk of losing even more energy in one go.

[Saiga]

What does that matter if he's as strong as a Super Saiyan 2? He'll hit just as hard and beat just as much energy out of Gohan. That's the whole point of this, isn't it? That Gohan was supposedly Super Saiyan 2, and thus Dabura was even stronger than that?

What I mean is, Dabra doesn't have transformations. He doesn't fight at his Super Saiyan level or his beyond Super Saiyan level. He fights at his level, and SS2 is always going to stand more of a chance against him.

Yes, but he'd give less energy to Buu as a result of that damage. That might be better in the long run than going in at full power from the start, which could run the risk of losing even more energy in one go.

I think it only works if both Goku and Vegeta were only Super Saiyans, because the scale of the fight is smaller and yet they're both still evenly matched. Whilst with Gohan vs Dabra, Dabra is going to be hitting just as hard and so Gohan will be losing more energy if he doesn't use Super Saiyan 2 to reduce the damage. If Dabra only had a slight advantage iover SS1 Gohan, then SS2 would absolutely shred him and Majin Boo's shell wouldn't get any energy.

[Bussani]

I think it only works if both Goku and Vegeta were only Super Saiyans, because the scale of the fight is smaller and yet they're both still evenly matched. Whilst with Gohan vs Dabra, Dabra is going to be hitting just as hard and so Gohan will be losing more energy if he doesn't use Super Saiyan 2 to reduce the damage. If Dabra only had a slight advantage iover SS1 Gohan, then SS2 would absolutely shred him and Majin Boo's shell wouldn't get any energy.

I'm not sure it works that way. If they could get tons of energy out of someone just by inflicting massive damage, they could have brought in any old weakling and had Dabura beat them up. The power of the person taking the damage must make a difference or they wouldn't have lured only the strongest people into the ship, so it seems logical to assume that if you held your power back, you'd give less energy to Buu.

But yeah, if Dabura was only a bit better than Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 would have finished him. I think 012yArthur0's point would be that Gohan was going to use Super Saiyan 2, but didn't get the chance to in the end. Seems plausible is all I'm saying. Even if we say that's wrong, to me, Gohan's comment about Goku and Vegeta fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan still seems to imply that he wasn't himself.

[Saiga]

I'm not sure it works that way. If they could get tons of energy out of someone just by inflicting massive damage, they could have brought in any old weakling and had Dabura beat them up. The power of the person taking the damage must make a difference or they wouldn't have lured only the strongest people into the ship, so it seems logical to assume that if you held your power back, you'd give less energy to Buu.

But yeah, if Dabura was only a bit better than Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 would have finished him. I think 012yArthur0's point would be that Gohan was going to use Super Saiyan 2, but didn't get the chance to in the end. Seems plausible is all I'm saying. Even if we say that's wrong, to me, Gohan's comment about Goku and Vegeta fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan still seems to imply that he wasn't himself.

That's definitely true, but the thing is that SS2 would stomp a SS1 league opponent and there would be hardly any damage inflicted, so SS1 is still a bad idea.