Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[Rocketman]

There's more room between pre- and post-healing Vegeta than there is between Sea Turtle and Nappa.

[freezamite]

Awe, so now you're not feeling picked on anymore? WONDERFUL! And yeah...I know what you mean. We all make mistakes, but the good news is that every day we wake up is a brand new opportunity to make a fresh start at things. That's how I look at it anyway, with my long term sins (procastination and laziness and all that).

Anyways, I'd put that stuff at the top then, so that it doesn't get lost under your responses to DBZGTKIDOSH then.

I felt picked on because I didn't see the "banned" status of the users I quoted, it was all my fault since the beginning
So yes, if I have the opportunity of doing so, I will try to make a fresh start from now on. Regards!

There's more room between pre- and post-healing Vegeta than there is between Sea Turtle and Nappa.

In absolute terms, yes. But in proportional terms, not even close (although I personally think that Nappa was at around 8000, so for me it wouldn't be the case going by absolute numbers either).

[RandomGuy96]

Anyone complaining about Kanzenshuu should probably see more of the internet. A forum abundant with useful, accurate information? Where the forum-ites are nearly uniformly friendly, blatant character bashing and general complaining is fairly rare, and the mods actually give you tons of chances? I'd kill for something like this for some of my favorite other fictional universes.

[Fionordequester]

Indeed. And I think Freezamite's come to see that now. Which is good, because trust me, I've SEEN what happens on other forums, including one guy on Something Awful who I TRIED to help...but just wouldn't listen. I'm so thankful that wasn't the case here.

Anyways, best we put THAT garbage behind us...and get back to talking about POWER LEVELS !!

[RandomGuy96]

An interesting point I haven't seen brought up: as Saiga pointed out earlier on another thread, Nappa's 4,000 and Raditz's 1,500 don't actually come from a guidebook. They come from Weekly Jump; specifically an extra page published in the same edition that contained the Goku-Vegeta beam struggle. I presume that's what this is?



The page containing the levels, like Nappa's 4,000 and Raditz's 1,500, was made at a time where Toriyama was still both actively creating power levels and writing the manga. We know that he even made memos for the anime staff at this time, advising them just exactly how powerful certain characters were (i.e. the Raditz is slightly stronger than a Saibaman memo). With that said, how likely is it that he just let a bunch of people make up random stuff for his own comic? That he didn't create these levels or even look closely and approve them?

[Kaboom]

Don't forget that there's a LOT of other power levels, including a few from that V-Jump list, that never made the cut or were deemed worth reprinting in the guidebooks. Whoever was going through those old numbers and picking them out for the Daizenshuu evidently didn't have a problem with Raditz and Nappa's numbers.

As for Toriyama's input, who knows? Maybe he did make up numbers for some characters on short notice, or had them in notes for his own reference, or something like that.

[RandomGuy96]

Don't forget that there's a LOT of other power levels, including a few from that V-Jump list, that never made the cut or were deemed worth reprinting in the guidebooks. Whoever was going through those old numbers and picking them out for the Daizenshuu evidently didn't have a problem with Raditz and Nappa's numbers.

As for Toriyama's input, who knows? Maybe he did make up numbers for some characters on short notice, or had them in notes for his own reference, or something like that.

I just find it unlikely that he'd care enough to advise the anime staff on the specifics of Raditz's power level, but not bat an eye at a page being put into his comic that spelled out the power levels of Raditz and a bunch of actually living characters. He simply had to have at least looked at this and said "that's fine".

[ZombieVito]

Man that 1030 for Popo and 220 for Kami just screws me up.

It contradicts the manga badly.

What's up with that 180 for Roshi and that 190 for Karin?

[Kamiccolo9]

Man that 1030 for Popo and 220 for Kami just screws me up.

It contradicts the manga badly.

What's up with that 180 for Roshi?

Not if you use those numbers for the Saiyan Arc. Didn't Popo train with the Earthlings? He could have powered up just like they did. And Kami could have weakened somewhat with age. It's been years since he finger-flicked Goku, after all.

[RandomGuy96]

Man that 1030 for Popo and 220 for Kami just screws me up.

It contradicts the manga badly.

Those can just be their Saiyan Saga levels, after Kami became older (and is now apparently on his death bed) and Popo trained with the humans.

The one that confuses me the most is King Piccolo's level. It seems unusually low given Goku's level at the top. I felt like the point of giving Goku a high level was to make room for the bloating that goes around in King Piccolo's arc ([tanks Kamehameha] "I'm still not even putting out half my full power"), but I guess not.

[ZombieVito]

Do we actually have confirmation that Popo trained with them? If so, why didn't he go and fight?

And Kami says that the humans only surpassed him after they finished training on the lookout. That 220 doesn't work with Tenshinhan's 250.

[RandomGuy96]

Do we actually have confirmation that Popo trained with them? If so, why didn't he go and fight?

And Kami says that the humans only surpassed him after they finished training on the lookout. That 220 doesn't work with Tenshinhan's 250.

Same reason he didn't stop King Piccolo or anyone before him?

220 could be his level during the Nappa/Vegeta fight, not the Raditz one.

[ZombieVito]

But that's the thing, why bother to train if he wasn't going to do jack s*** anyway.

I don't know about Kami, nowhere was it said he got weaker (as far as I know).

[Kid Buu]

But that's the thing, why bother to train if he wasn't going to do jack s*** anyway.

I don't know about Kami, nowhere was it said he got weaker (as far as I know).

Same reason he didn't give Goku his magic carpet to get to Nappa straight away - Popo's an asshole.

[Kamiccolo9]

But that's the thing, why bother to train if he wasn't going to do jack s*** anyway.

I don't know about Kami, nowhere was it said he got weaker (as far as I know).

I don't know if it was so much that Popo trained himself, as much as he was training the others, and in the process, grew stronger as they did.

IIRC, Kami knew that he was going to die soon, and mentioned that it might be due to old age. That seems as likely a reason as any for me.

[RandomGuy96]

But that's the thing, why bother to train if he wasn't going to do jack s*** anyway.

Pecking order.

[ZombieVito]

Haha I love TFS.

[Herms]

Perversely, the fact that Popo's BP is so bizarre and seemingly nonsensical is precisely why I suspect Toriyama came up with it. Certainly, if there's anyone who'd just pick a number at random, it'd be him. The idea that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them because they contradict the manga seems pretty naive. That said, there's no proof that he had any hand in them. They tend to tout whenever Toriyama touches anything with a ten foot poll, so the fact that this page doesn't mention him is notable.

Also, while the 1,500/4,000 numbers for Raditz/Nappa get trotted out all the time in various bits of merchandise, the BPs for Popo/God/Chi-Chi/etc have never been repeated anywhere else as far as I know, so maybe they were ultimately considered mistakes.

On that note, it's tempting to think that God'd BP of 220 was actually intended for old Piccolo but somehow got assigned to him by mistake. 220 is exactly halfway between Goku's 180 and young Piccolo's 260 after all, which is as good a place to put old Piccolo as any. Whereas God of course fingerflicks Goku out of the way after Goku beat Piccolo. But we could rationalize it by saying God is so skilled that he can punch above his weight, BP-wise, or that his power has really nosedived between his first appearance and the Saiyan arc.

[RandomGuy96]

Perversely, the fact that Popo's BP is so bizarre and seemingly nonsensical is precisely why I suspect Toriyama came up with it. Certainly, if there's anyone who'd just pick a number at random, it'd be him. The idea that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with them because they contradict the manga seems pretty naive. That said, there's no proof that he had any hand in them. They tend to tout whenever Toriyama touches anything with a ten foot poll, so the fact that this page doesn't mention him is notable.

Also, while the 1,500/4,000 numbers for Raditz/Nappa get trotted out all the time in various bits of merchandise, the BPs for Popo/God/Chi-Chi/etc have never been repeated anywhere else as far as I know, so maybe they were ultimately considered mistakes.

On that note, it's tempting to think that God'd BP of 220 was actually intended for old Piccolo but somehow got assigned to him by mistake. 220 is exactly halfway between Goku's 180 and young Piccolo's 260 after all, which is as good a place to put old Piccolo as any. Whereas God of course fingerflicks Goku out of the way after Goku beat Piccolo. But we could rationalize it by saying God is so skilled that he can punch above his weight, BP-wise, or that his power has really nosedived between his first appearance and the Saiyan arc.

Well, Toriyama also retconned the 20,000 power level number for Vegeta, so it's not like these being Toriyama made or at least approved would preclude them from being considered mistakes. But the 1,500 and 4,000 numbers were repeated in the Daizenshuu, which Toriyama apparently had such involvement in that he was classified as "busy" for a year (I'm pretty sure he mentioned that in an interview, saying something like, well now I can talk since I'm not busy with the Daizenshuu and other things), so I find it unlikely he didn't personally approve of that too. Picking a random number also seems quite Toriyama-esque; the numbers he picked at the beginning of DBZ for Goku, Piccolo, etc. were clearly not thought about with logical scaling in mind, as those numbers are next to impossible to fit with all of the "many times stronger" statements from Dragon Ball.

And that's a good point. It being exactly halfway between Goku and young Piccolo does seem rather fishy.

[ZombieVito]

Whats exactly is wrong with Milk's (Yeah I know it's Chi Chi but that's her name in Mexico) 130 PL?

In any case I'll just stick with Daiz PL (Except for Nappa's).