Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[dbgtFO]

2. This link disagrees with that comic lol, SSJ Gogeta can keep up with Vegetto and defeat him SS4 Goku would stomp him lol. http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg

What's the source of that image?

[Sora Saiyan]

1. Isn't 4th form freeza Buu level in ROF, GT freeza and Cell ar proply Kid Buu level since they watched that battle in HFIL and they claimed they are much stronger Then the last time they fought Goku.


2. This link disagrees with that comic lol, SSJ Gogeta can keep up with Vegetto and defeat him SS4 Goku would stomp him lol. http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg

1. True form Freeza could be greater than any form of Vegetto as he doesn't get one shotted by base Godku who isn't much weaker than his god form in BoG, and he continues training from that point.

2. What guidebook is that from? Herms commented on it recently and he believes it's fake for a couple of reasons.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

We do need a longer fight because we didn't see enough. Goku punches Bebi, if Goku is only using 50% of his SSJ3 power of course nothing is going to happen. Bebi punches Goku back and Goku admits that Bebi is "more than an even match" for him at SSJ3. It doesn't matter if Bebi is repeatedly calling Goku pathetic. Vegeta also did that in the Saiyan arc despite Goku having the advantage.

Why wouldn't Goku hold back? If he is more powerful than Bebi by a good margin then Vegeta is dead with one punch. The good guys usually start off holding back and then use more of their power later in the fight. There is no reason to assume that Goku didn't hold back. Because Goku is the type of guy to be concerned for his opponent anyway. Goku held back against the dragon that absorbed Pan for another example. Bebi showing his full power means nothing really because several characters have demonstrated their full power and the weaker person still thought they had the advantage. Semi-perfect Cell against Super Vegeta for instance or Perfect Cell against SSJ2 Gohan are two such examples. Characters have issues sizing up their own power against the opponents generally. All Goku probably had was a vague idea that SSJ2 wouldn't be enough. But SSJ3, if the multipliers stayed the same, is 4x stronger than SSJ2 anyway so Goku could have easily thought that Bebi was vaguely between SSJ2-SSJ3 tier in power. If he is in the bottom end of this then Vegeta is as good as dead from a full powered punch so Goku would most assuredly hold back with the first punch just to gauge where Bebi sat in terms of power. But as we see from the dialogue Goku quickly realised that Bebi was stronger than him. Goku was shocked by this. If he was shocked by this he must have assumed that Bebi was less than Goku's own power. Otherwise he wouldn't have been shocked. It's pretty logical really. I don't see why you can't see it.

Do you have any evidence, or even a hint, that Goku was holding back?

I'm well aware of the fact that Toei is notorious for giving characters random unjustifiable hax. However, if we simply fall back on that, there's really no point for these in-universe discussions pertaining to any Toei characters right?

On a serious note, I don't think Goku was literally expecting Uub to be on par with a villain that he had fought with in a near death battle 10 years prior. The Saiyan's expectations were probably more in line with facing off against an opponent who is capable of either rivaling his base form, or possibly even keeping up with him while he's a Super Saiyan.

I doubt Goku was seriously expecting an inexperienced child to possess ALL of the power that the once unbeatable threat of the universe had.

While I could certainly understand Uub having that degree of power stored somewhere within as his potential, starting off at that level right from the get-go sounds quite preposterous. That would mean with an ample amount of anger, Uub (EoZ) could one-shot fighters like Majin Vegeta and Super Perfect Cell, as such feats are well within the realm of possibility for any fighter who wields the power of Kid Buu.

Also, because EoZ is still canon, it likely follows the concept of Base Goku (Buu arc) being below Freeza. Therefore, without the blessing of any hax, a base Saiyan going from being weaker than Freeza to the same realm of power as Kid Buu sounds exceptionally far-fetched in my personal opinion.

Goku says to Mr. Satan that they (Goku, Vegeta, Goten, Trunks) or Boo may not be the ones that will win the tournament, and he wanted to fight Oob when they were both at 100%. After their fight, he said that Oob was exactly as strong as he expected him to be. What he didn't expect, however, was that Oob hadn't done any training. For example, he thought that Oob was supressing his power, while it turned out that he couldn't bring out this power on his own. So, unless base Goku & Vegeta had surpassed Mr. Boo, which I highly doubt, I can't come to any other conclusion other than Oob at full power being on Pure Boo's level.

Perhaps I'm being a little picky, but in this case the two "problems" you are talking about are the same. With a fully developed body Goku would be stronger, because he was used to SS3. Trying to use SS3 with a small body would burn energy quick enough to be ineffective in a fight, thus making Goku weaker. The more he fights, the faster he gets weaker, reaching a point that he must revert to normal conditions or even worse than that.

It seems to me that the SS3 form just shuts down all of a sudden. Gotenks didn't notice a power drop before he reverted back to base, and alive Goku noticed it a few seconds before he reverted against Boo, and the same thing happened in GT. So, I don't think that SS3 Goku against Vegeta-Baby was much below his full power when they fought, especially since Baby said in their second fight that Goku's power hadn't change at all.

[Lord Gogeta]

Lord Gogeta
With Xenoverse basically throwing a lot of DB Online stuff in the game, I'd be very surprised if it isn't just that. I'd say there's no way, as I'm pretty sure the Kanzenshuu main site would report something as big as that, and from what I remember there was nothing saying Xenoverse was supervised by Toriyama on the main site (I was a lurker for about 4 years, and checked the main site daily.

SSJ2FutureGohan
The way that I believe Ultimate Gohan works is just different, if he were to ever gain any more power his Ultimate form would be the way to bring that, and every bit of power out. He still seems to have the need to power up as we see him make a noticeable power up against Super Boo even though he already had the Ultimate features, and he also powers up to his Ultimate form in BoG. I stick by what Rou Kaioshin was saying, that SSJ is the wrong way of doing things, so he basically eliminated the need for it.

Sorry but the producers stated it was supervised and approved by Toriyama, is also a prequel to DBO .

[Hitiro]

Do you have any evidence, or even a hint, that Goku was holding back?

Do you have evidence that he didn't? Can you show me a point where Goku went full-out from the start of a battle without knowing how strong his opponent was? All the fights leading up to this he has been constantly holding back. Even the bad guys have stated he wasn't giving it his all during those fights. I don't see why this fight would be the exception. Especially when the person he is fighting is a friend.

[Sora Saiyan]

Sorry but the producers stated it was supervised and approved by Toriyama, is also a prequel to DBO .

I finally found what you're talking about! It doesn't say that though, it says "Toriyama sensei is well aware of this game" "The characters Surpreme Kai of Time and Toki Toki were even created under Toriyama senseis supervision and approval" they then say "he allowed us freedom with the game" or something like that. So no, he didnt supervise the game, he supervised two of the characters.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Fmpyu8zhBVU
This is the video, it mentions nothing about Toriyama supervising and approving the story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do you have any evidence, or even a hint, that Goku was holding back?

Do you have evidence that he didn't? Can you show me a point where Goku went full-out from the start of a battle without knowing how strong his opponent was? All the fights leading up to this he has been constantly holding back. Even the bad guys have stated he wasn't giving it his all during those fights. I don't see why this fight would be the exception. Especially when the person he is fighting is a friend.

In their second fight, where Goku was definitely not holding back since Baby was even stronger than before, Baby says that Goku is exactly as strong as he was before. Their previous fight was so small that Goku didn't get the chance to power-up, meaning that Goku was going all-out before.

And he did know how strong Vegeta-Baby was, which is why he went Super Saiyan 3 imidiately.

[Tectorman]

The second time Goku faces Baby as a SSJ3, Baby remarks that Goku isn't any stronger, but I don't think we can take that statement at face value.

At face value, it means that Goku faced Baby as a SSJ3,
characterized Baby as a more than even match,
witnessed Baby get even stronger,
and then came back with no more than the ability to use only the same power he was using the last time albeit for a slightly longer time,
beheld Baby even further stronger still,
and thought his paltry SSJ3 would be able to do anything.

Which makes no sense. The power Goku exhibits as a tailed SSJ3 the second time he fights Baby has to be greater than the power he exhibited as a non-tailed SSJ3 the first time he fought Baby. But this greater power has to come about in a manner that wouldn't be characterized as "greater power".

To me, that means he wasn't fighting at full power SSJ3 the first time he fought Baby. Which isn't even unusual, really; we know from his fight with Kid Buu that just being in SSJ3 doesn't mean being at full power.

Specifically, what I think happened was this:

Goku fights Baby Vegeta

Goku: 1
BV: 2 (capable of 225)

Goku revs up to SSJ3, and the two fight again

SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 200 ***
BV: 225

***

Spoiler:

I think one of two things is going on here.

1) One theory already put out there is that Goku didn't go to SSJ3's full power from the getgo. Partly out of his tendency to test the waters (standard operating procedure for every fight I can think of with the exception of his fight with Android 19 (and we have an explanation for why he rushed that fight)) and partly because he was fighting Baby in Vegeta's body and didn't want to cause permanent harm. Seeing that Baby Vegeta is more than an even match, he can use more power, except the form taps out early.

I.e., SSJ3 Goku: 200 (capable of 400, if his energy doesn't tap out first)

2) My theory is that his kid form impeded his power, such that his kid form full power was less than his adult form full power.

Maybe there needs to be another term for a character's maximum power manifested as opposed to the maximum power the character is capable of.

What do I mean by that?

When Goku fought Raditz, he exhibited a power of 334 with the weighted clothes and a power of 408 without.

Under no circumstances do I buy that he did 74 worth of training in the few seconds it took him to take those clothes off. I'm also not under the impression that he was actively suppressing his power. Yes, his power was suppressed, but by an external factor. Goku was at 408 the whole time; it's just that he only registered as 334 and only had 334 available to use.

So wouldn't Goku's GT kid form operate similarly? It's the same power, but because it exists in a vessel that is reduced by an external factor (a less developed child's body instead of weighted clothes), his useful full power becomes less than his actual full power and he only gets it back when he gets the tail.

I.e., SSJ3 Goku: 200 (incapable of more, due to underdeveloped body)

Later, when the Elder Kai explains the purpose behind regrowing the tail, he describes it as drawing out Goku's latent power. Power he has but can't use at the moment. Based on that, I tend to lean towards the second theory.

But in either case...

Goku loses the form, Baby Vegeta becomes Super Baby Vegeta and defeats Goku

SBV: exhibits 250 (is capable of 500)

Even while not showing it, Baby has gone from exceeding Goku's current SSJ3 to exceeding the most that Goku's SSJ3 would be capable of***.

***

Spoiler:

At this point, it doesn't matter which theory you go with. Goku's kid form might only have energy issues but is otherwise as strong as his adult form, or his kid SSJ3 might be weaker than his adult SSJ3. In either case, SBV is stronger than what Goku exhibited during their fight and he's stronger than what he/Vegeta knows that Goku is ultimately capable of.

He then becomes Super Baby Vegeta 2.

SBV2: 300 (capable of 1,000)

Uub comes along and is easily defeated

Uub: 1-20
SBV: 300 (capable of 1,000)

Uub comes back as Majuub and operates under the impression that his new power can succeed where he previously failed, until SBV2 powers up a little more and defeats Majuub

Majuub: 300
SBV2: 350 (capable of 1,000)

Goku regrows his tail and, while not changing his power, can now access all of his power as a SSJ3. Being still stronger than the power SBV2 has thus far exhibited (though not SBV2's full power), he now thinks he has a chance, despite his base abilities not changing***. He would still sense SBV2 holding back, but up until the point where SBV2 actually shows power greater than 400, Goku can operate as though he still has a chance.

***

Spoiler:

In theory 1, the tail allows him to go all the way up to 400 without his energy tapping out early. Because his power has not changed, just his capacity for using it, this can be characterized as not being any stronger even though it is.

In theory 2, the tail draws out his latent power, counteracts the externally imposed impediment that having a child's body has on his power, and makes 400 even possible. Because his power goes from "there but not useable" to "there and useable", it can be characterized as not being stronger even though it is. Just like how his power against Raditz didn't change even though it did.

And in either case...

SSJ3 Goku (with tail): 400
SBV2: 500 (capable of 1,000)

Goku is still defeated.

...

And that's the best explanation I have for why nothing would seemingly change, but Goku would think his SSJ3 capable of victory when it previously wasn't. Either he simply declined to fight at SSJ3's full power at the beginning of his first fight with Baby and he intended to do so later but his energy tapped out, or he was incapable of it entirely.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku just thought that he had gotten stronger because of the tail, but he was wrong. There is no indication that Goku was holding back, or was unable to use his true power in their first fight. On the contrary, we are told that SS3 Goku's power was exactly the same in both fights, so I don't understand why this is even a debate.

[dbgtFO]

Goku just thought that he had gotten stronger because of the tail, but he was wrong. There is no indication that Goku was holding back, or was unable to use his true power in their first fight. On the contrary, we are told that SS3 Goku's power was exactly the same in both fights, so I don't understand why this is even a debate.

Anything to discredit Gt apparently.
It can't even be unanimously agreed upon, that Rildo is just straight up stronger than Majin Buu like Goku said, because then base Goku would just be too strong for some people's liking.
Still there is the fact, that first when Super Vegeta-Baby appears does Goku say, that's the strongest ki he's ever felt, so what are we supposed to think?
That it's just Goku pointing out that Baby is stronger than anyone before him? But if that's the case too, when Rildo appeared, why didn't we get a similar statement?
It could also be, that the events of DBZ movie 13 happened and that just Means the chain of power would look like this:

Majin Buu < Rildo < Hildegarn < Super Vegeta-Baby.

Furthermore I don't have a problem with Goku's line being taken to mean, that Super Vegeta-Baby was stronger than Super Vegetto back in the Buu Arc, although the way it's worded makes it really unlikely.
Still I don't see how the Janemba example proves, that Goku wouldn't be including himself just because he beat Fat Janmeba.
Janemba is like a child and it makes sense he wouldn't be using his power to its full capability at all times. Even Goku started out in base against him and wasn't instantly stomped, because Janemba was just having fun.
It's first, when he's owned and transformed into Super Janemba, that he turns into a proper fighter and a fearsome foe. You could see it like him getting a body more fit for fighting/mode changing, but basically keeping the same power, but now in a body better suited to it.
Also Janemba clearly the OG Super Saiyan 4, big yellow clumsy monster, that transforms into a humanoid red awesome being.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Making things up to argue against what's explicitly shown to the viewers...

Toei shows Goku doing no damage to Vegeta-Baby, and shows the latter damaging the former, because they want us to believe they're equal?

Toei has Vegeta-Baby say Goku's power didn't change at all, because they want us to believe he did get stronger?

Why?

[Hitiro]

Do you have any evidence, or even a hint, that Goku was holding back?

Do you have evidence that he didn't? Can you show me a point where Goku went full-out from the start of a battle without knowing how strong his opponent was? All the fights leading up to this he has been constantly holding back. Even the bad guys have stated he wasn't giving it his all during those fights. I don't see why this fight would be the exception. Especially when the person he is fighting is a friend.

In their second fight, where Goku was definitely not holding back since Baby was even stronger than before, Baby says that Goku is exactly as strong as he was before. Their previous fight was so small that Goku didn't get the chance to power-up, meaning that Goku was going all-out before.

And he did know how strong Vegeta-Baby was, which is why he went Super Saiyan 3 imidiately.

In their second fight he had no reason to hold back because he knew where Bebi stood even before he got stronger. And Goku can be at full power without throwing a full power punch. He doesn't need to suppress his Ki to throw a weaker punch than normal. He just needs to throw a punch with minimal effort. Even if it didn't work that way, after the first punch he could have easily got his power up to full power after throwing the punch. The characters have done that without needing to power-up. Look at BoG. Goku was only using 80% of his power at the start. There was no powering up sequence yet he was using 100% by the end. Vegeta has toyed with opponents before and then started using his full power without any sort of powering up sequence. Look at Semi-Perfect Cell.

And no, he didn't know how strong Bebi Vegeta was because he was shocked that Bebi Vegeta was more than an even match for him at SSJ3. If he is shocked by that then he clearly didn't know where Bebi stood. He may have had a rough idea, like Bebi Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2, but he definitely didn't know where Bebi Vegeta stood otherwise he wouldn't have been so shocked. You can't be shocked by something you already know.

[Hugo Boss]

Interesting theory, @Tectorman. It seems Goku's tail somehow may substitute a full developed body.

In response to the others. It's a lot more interesting discussion when people come to this place to present their theories than present the absolute truth. This is a bit harsh commment to make, but I don't know how to phrase it more friendly. It's unconfortable to see a guy writing an awesome post, put a lot of effort on it, and others point that it diverges from what is explicitily shown. Maybe that might be true, but come on. We really don't need to have a consensus, just a proper conversation. Yes, some things about Dragon Ball GT are a bit difficult to accept, but I'm okay with them. It's still fun and worth of Dragon Ball's name.

[Tectorman]

Making things up to argue against what's explicitly shown to the viewers...

Toei shows Goku doing no damage to Vegeta-Baby, and shows the latter damaging the former, because they want us to believe they're equal?

Toei has Vegeta-Baby say Goku's power didn't change at all, because they want us to believe he did get stronger?

Why?

Like I said, taking that statement at face value makes no sense.

"Toei has Baby say Goku's power didn't change at all, meaning it didn't change at all."

So Goku faced Baby with 400 power the first time,

observed that 400 power not accomplish a thing,

powered down after a minute,

observed Baby get even stronger,

gets his tail regrown and operates under the impression that he can use SSJ3 longer,

comes back to see that Baby is now even stronger than the last time he saw Baby,

and upon seeing a power greater than greater than greater than the 400 power he threw at Baby the last time,

and decides he has a chance because where previously he could only use his sucky 400 power for a minute, now he can use his even further sucky 400 power for more than a minute. Because surely that will change the outcome.

Come on. Goku's not the brightest bulb in the box, but this is fighting, the one area in which he's a genius. He would not do something so totally nonsensical as that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In their second fight he had no reason to hold back because he knew where Bebi stood even before he got stronger. And Goku can be at full power without throwing a full power punch. He doesn't need to suppress his Ki to throw a weaker punch than normal. He just needs to throw a punch with minimal effort. Even if it didn't work that way, after the first punch he could have easily got his power up to full power after throwing the punch. The characters have done that without needing to power-up. Look at BoG. Goku was only using 80% of his power at the start. There was no powering up sequence yet he was using 100% by the end. Vegeta has toyed with opponents before and then started using his full power without any sort of powering up sequence. Look at Semi-Perfect Cell.

Still, we know that Goku's power at both fights were exactly the same, so he wasn't holding back.

Interesting theory, @Tectorman. It seems Goku's tail somehow may substitute a full developed body.

In response to the others. It's a lot more interesting discussion when people come to this place to present their theories than present the absolute truth. This is a bit harsh commment to make, but I don't know how to phrase it more friendly. It's unconfortable to see a guy writing an awesome post, put a lot of effort on it, and others point that it diverges from what is explicitily shown. Maybe that might be true, but come on. We really don't need to have a consensus, just a proper conversation. Yes, some things about Dragon Ball GT are a bit difficult to accept, but I'm okay with them. It's still fun and worth of Dragon Ball's name.

So, let's ignore what the series says, and make up our own theories? I would accept this when it comes to plot-holes, but there is no plot-hole here. It's like saying that Ultimate Gohan in Boo arc can't transform into a Super Saiyan and get stronger as we are shown, but this doesn't make sense, he is in base form, so he should still get x50 stronger. It doesn't sound like an interesting discussion to me.

Like I said, taking that statement at face value makes no sense.

"Toei has Baby say Goku's power didn't change at all, meaning it didn't change at all."

So Goku faced Baby with 400 power the first time,

observed that 400 power not accomplish a thing,

powered down after a minute,

observed Baby get even stronger,

gets his tail regrown and operates under the impression that he can use SSJ3 longer,

comes back to see that Baby is now even stronger than the last time he saw Baby,

and upon seeing a power greater than greater than greater than the 400 power he threw at Baby the last time,

and decides he has a chance because where previously he could only use his sucky 400 power for a minute, now he can use his even further sucky 400 power for more than a minute. Because surely that will change the outcome.

Come on. Goku's not the brightest bulb in the box, but this is fighting, the one area in which he's a genius. He would not do something so totally nonsensical as that.

Goku didn't go there because he believed the tail would make his SS3 last longer, he went there because according to Rou Kaioshin, the tail would release his dormant powers & make him stronger. It turned out that Goku's power hadn't increased at all however, and he wasn't aware of this until Baby told him.

[Hitiro]

Still, we know that Goku's power at both fights were exactly the same, so he wasn't holding back.

Like I pointed out, holding back a punch and suppressing yourself are two things that don't need to be linked. Characters can throw punches at their maximum power but still restrain their punch so it isn't at full power. How do you think characters like Vegeta weren't fighting seriously when they didn't have the ability to suppress? They just reduced the effort of their punches. So while Goku is probably at maximum power when he threw the punch that doesn't mean the effort he put into his punch was 100% And like I also pointed out there are several scenes where characters are fighting at less power but then fight at a higher power without undergoing a power-up sequence. So we don't know if Goku didn't do this after he threw the first punch either. There are several possibilities. But the simple fact of the matter is all of the fights leading up to this one Goku never exerted his full effort at the start of the battle.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Still, we know that Goku's power at both fights were exactly the same, so he wasn't holding back.

Like I pointed out, holding back a punch and suppressing yourself are two things that don't need to be linked. Characters can throw punches at their maximum power but still restrain their punch so it isn't at full power. How do you think characters like Vegeta weren't fighting seriously when they didn't have the ability to suppress? They just reduced the effort of their punches. So while Goku is probably at maximum power when he threw the punch that doesn't mean the effort he put into his punch was 100% And like I also pointed out there are several scenes where characters are fighting at less power but then fight at a higher power without undergoing a power-up sequence. So we don't know if Goku didn't do this after he threw the first punch either. There are several possibilities. But the simple fact of the matter is all of the fights leading up to this one Goku never exerted his full effort at the start of the battle.

Let's just agree that we disagree then.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Two people who can sense Ki confirm Goku's power didn't change. This is not an argument. It's made clear Goku overestimated himself because of his tail. This is literally no different than Gohan trying to convince himself he became powerful enough to beat Fat Boo from training with the Zeta Sword, only to be told by Rou Kaioshin he's wrong.

[Tectorman]

Times when characters have had their latent/hidden/dormant power drawn out in this series:

Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water
Krillin post-Guru
Gohan post-Guru
Majin Vegeta
Gohan's Mystic power-up

At which times did the character know immediately that he'd gotten stronger and start using it?

All of them, including Mystic Gohan. Yes, the Elder Kai had to tell him how to use the power, but before that, Gohan used it on his own. He got mad and started yelling at the Elder Kai until he stopped mid-sentence.

Because he felt how much stronger he was. As in, he could feel his own power. Just like the others who could immediately tell that they'd had their latent power unlocked.

Characters are able to sense their own power. Yes, it's still better to get a second opinion*** (a la Goku asking Korin how he rated against Cell), but they can still get some sense of how strong they are and whether they've gotten stronger or not due to whatever influence.

***

Spoiler:

Not that second opinions are always better. Sometimes the person sensing their power doesn't read it right.

For example, Trunks was proud of how his father was faring against Perfect Cell. Right up until Vegeta got frustrated that Cell wasn't even bothering to fight for real. Shouldn't Trunks have sensed that Vegeta was at full power while Cell wasn't?

Another example. Gohan had no idea that his father had been fighting at full power. He thought both Goku and Cell were still holding back. Shouldn't he have been able to tell?

I just don't buy that Goku would be so green as to go charging off with no inkling of having a better chance than he previously did.

Going back under the assumption that his energy won't tap out early this time. I can buy that.

Going back under the assumption that his tail is countering his underdeveloped body and making all of his power accessible. I can buy that.

Making a Gohan mistake. Nope.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Well, we can agree to disagree if we interpret it differently.

As for Goku asking Karin to compare him to Cell, Goku wanted Karin's expectations for Cell's full power. Also, Cell was just standing around, so Goku wouldn't be able to get a good read on his Ki (standing Ki vs. fighting Ki), and it's likely Cell was suppressed, since none of the Z-fighters or super powered beings that can suppress ever really stand/walk around at full power.