I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Basako]

Two. What a selfish, asshole, sociopath is Gohan, knowing how unpredictable is Zeno and the menace of erasing universes, he puts his pride over this and refuses to take a senzu bean. He would have won easily with it, he almost loosed. This are the standards of some people here, not mine. Well done, Gohan!

Agree'd, Gohan's a fcking sociopath, we are talking about entertaining the midgets that are out to destroy our universe, and he dares fight a battle without using a senzu that can utmost guarantee his sure victory? Gohan's a fcking idiot, 2nd worst character like ever.

So we have Goku and Gohan. Vegeta, obviously. Piccolo, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaoz agreed on letting Gero do the androids too. Trunks, if not a sociopath, he is stupid for not destroying Gero's lab himself, I'm sure his mother told him about the dragon balls. Beerus decided not to intervine with the future timeline Zamasu, which was becoming a menace for all others too, not to mention he destroys planets for stupid reasons. The angels and Kaioshins seem fine about that. Bulma calls Whis and Beerus every now and then, knowing Beerus is a god of destruction and what he can do to a planet if he gets angry. Any sociopath else?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Two. What a selfish, asshole, sociopath is Gohan, knowing how unpredictable is Zeno and the menace of erasing universes, he puts his pride over this and refuses to take a senzu bean. He would have won easily with it, he almost loosed. This are the standards of some people here, not mine. Well done, Gohan!

Agree'd, Gohan's a fcking sociopath, we are talking about entertaining the midgets that are out to destroy our universe, and he dares fight a battle without using a senzu that can utmost guarantee his sure victory? Gohan's a fcking idiot, 2nd worst character like ever.

So we have Goku and Gohan. Vegeta, obviously. Piccolo, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaoz agreed on letting Gero do the androids too. Trunks, if not a sociopath, he is stupid for not destroying Gero's lab himself, I'm sure his mother told him about the dragon balls. Beerus decided not to intervine with the future timeline Zamasu, which was becoming a menace for all others too, not to mention he destroys planets for stupid reasons. The angels and Kaioshins seem fine about that. Bulma calls Whis and Beerus every now and then, knowing Beerus is a god of destruction and what he can do to a planet if he gets angry. Any sociopath else?

Goten & Trunks toy with Buu instead of finishing him off immediately which eventually leads to the whole Earth being destroyed.

Also, Gohan later allows Gotenks to fight Buu despite the fact that he could easily finish Buu himself, thereby risking the whole planet and proving that he's a complete sociopath.

[Basako]

Agree'd, Gohan's a fcking sociopath, we are talking about entertaining the midgets that are out to destroy our universe, and he dares fight a battle without using a senzu that can utmost guarantee his sure victory? Gohan's a fcking idiot, 2nd worst character like ever.

So we have Goku and Gohan. Vegeta, obviously. Piccolo, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaoz agreed on letting Gero do the androids too. Trunks, if not a sociopath, he is stupid for not destroying Gero's lab himself, I'm sure his mother told him about the dragon balls. Beerus decided not to intervine with the future timeline Zamasu, which was becoming a menace for all others too, not to mention he destroys planets for stupid reasons. The angels and Kaioshins seem fine about that. Bulma calls Whis and Beerus every now and then, knowing Beerus is a god of destruction and what he can do to a planet if he gets angry. Any sociopath else?

Goten & Trunks toy with Buu instead of finishing him off immediately which eventually leads to the whole Earth being destroyed.

Also, Gohan later allows Gotenks to fight Buu despite the fact that he could easily finish Buu himself, thereby risking the whole planet and proving that he's a complete sociopath.

There, thanks, Gotenks to the list of selfish, asshole, sociopaths.

[buutenks]

This thread got a funny turn around.

[SansrivaaL]

This thread got a funny turn around.

It isnt really, all of em are sociopaths, assholes, idiots. Its just that Goku's at the pinnacle of it, while everyone else follows hell we can even add psychotic in the list so that everyones happy. Since Goku is clearly psychotic because he didnt take Beerus and Whis' warning to heart. Now he dooms other universes, fck Goku, worst main character in all of shonen franchise, I dont even understand why some people defend this psycho sociopath.

[Basako]

This thread got a funny turn around.

It isnt really, all of em are sociopaths, assholes, idiots. Its just that Goku's at the pinnacle of it, while everyone else follows hell we can even add psychotic in the list so that everyones happy. Since Goku is clearly psychotic because he didnt take Beerus and Whis' warning to heart. Now he dooms other universes, fck Goku, worst main character in all of shonen franchise, I dont even understand why some people defend this psycho sociopath.

Eight universes were already doomed, what Goku really did was to give a chance to at least one of them, probably more.

Just saying the standards you use to call Goku a psycho sociopath, that's new, make plenty of other characters the exact same. No follow bullshit, Gohan made a decision on his own, the others can speak and act for themselves too, not to mention what Vegeta would say about following Goku.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Two. What a selfish, asshole, sociopath is Gohan, knowing how unpredictable is Zeno and the menace of erasing universes, he puts his pride over this and refuses to take a senzu bean. He would have won easily with it, he almost loosed. This are the standards of some people here, not mine. Well done, Gohan!

1. It was an exhibition match. Victory didn't matter. Entertaining Zeno did. If he got bored from an assured victory he would probably disqualify it.
2. Gohan was being built up toward wanting to prove himself toward being useful to his friends again. He did this to push himself and improved greatly.
3. He could take the Senzu bean, and then get poisoned again. He chose not to, in order to push himself and Goku saw this as training for him.

It was all justified. Goku doing something like this, would have not been for character development but solely for the fact that Goku is too cocky to accept support, or to the point now where he'll just laugh off the consequences of it according to his ROF characterization.

[Basako]

Two. What a selfish, asshole, sociopath is Gohan, knowing how unpredictable is Zeno and the menace of erasing universes, he puts his pride over this and refuses to take a senzu bean. He would have won easily with it, he almost loosed. This are the standards of some people here, not mine. Well done, Gohan!

1. It was an exhibition match. Victory didn't matter. Entertaining Zeno did. If he got bored from an assured victory he would probably disqualify it.
2. Gohan was being built up toward wanting to prove himself toward being useful to his friends again. He did this to push himself and improved greatly.
3. He could take the Senzu bean, and then get poisoned again. He chose not to, in order to push himself and Goku saw this as training for him.

It was all justified. Goku doing something like this, would have not been for character development but solely for the fact that Goku is too cocky to accept support, or to the point now where he'll just laugh off the consequences of it according to his ROF characterization.

Even if it was an exhibition match, look how the Universe 9 Kaioshin is told that this match won't count. Because Zeno is unpredictable, if that was a reason against Goku, why not for the others? Zeno could have easily erased the loosing universe just to show the rest. Gohan took unnecessary risks, there is too much at stake. Gohan should think less in building and proving and more in his family and whole universe. He can train and build after the match. The wise move would have been to take the senzu bean and avoid the poison from then. Looking how good he did without his eyes and poison weakening him from the inside, he should have done that easily once cured.

[Kanassa]

Are you actually insane? Stuff like that hardly ever happens and when it does, it's frowned upon because NO ONE COULD ROOT FOR SUCH AN IRREDEEMABLE PERSON

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

[Lord Beerus]

That awkward moment when Goku unintentionally gives a lifeline to not only his own universe, but to seven others. The people who were giving Goku so much grief for him instigating the tournament have gotta eat their words now, because Goku just gave eight universes a potential "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, when they were facing extinction.

We so got worked.

[ekrolo2]

That awkward moment when Goku unintentionally gives a lifeline to not only his own universe, but to seven others. The people who were giving Goku so much grief for him instigating the tournament have gotta eat their words now, because Goku just gave eight universes a potential "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, when they were facing extinction.

We so got worked.

And thus potentially dies the best part of the arc if the next episodes don't salvage it.

[Lord Beerus]

That awkward moment when Goku unintentionally gives a lifeline to not only his own universe, but to seven others. The people who were giving Goku so much grief for him instigating the tournament have gotta eat their words now, because Goku just gave eight universes a potential "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, when they were facing extinction.

We so got worked.

And thus potentially dies the best part of the arc if the next episodes don't salvage it.

You know what the freighting thing about all this is:

We all know that it was Universe 7 not a matter of "if" but "when" was going to bite the dust, irregardless of what Goku did. Then is dawned on me... the tournament between all the universes was originally Zeno's idea in the first place. So he had already come up with a convenient plan to wipe out all the "useless" universe. And ironically that wouldn't have happened if Beerus and Champa got into dick measuring contest about their respective universes and had the Universe 6/7 tournament in the first place. So in reality, if anyone is going to blamed for the more convenient method of which Zeno will destroy the 8 universes, it Beerus and Champa. This just makes the fact that all the Hakaishin in the losing universes in the tournament will be killed all the more cleverly sadistic.

Everything about the multiverse tournament was specifically planned to fuck everyone over who was involved. I fucking love that.

[ekrolo2]

That awkward moment when Goku unintentionally gives a lifeline to not only his own universe, but to seven others. The people who were giving Goku so much grief for him instigating the tournament have gotta eat their words now, because Goku just gave eight universes a potential "Get Out Of Jail Free" card, when they were facing extinction.

We so got worked.

And thus potentially dies the best part of the arc if the next episodes don't salvage it.

You know what the freighting thing about all this is:

We all know that it was Universe 7 not a matter of "if" but "when" was going to bite the dust, irregardless of what Goku did. Then is dawned on me... the tournament between all the universes was originally Zeno's idea in the first place. So he had already come up with a convenient plan to wipe out all the "useless" universe. And ironically that wouldn't have happened if Beerus and Champa got into dick measuring contest about their respective universes and had the Universe 6/7 tournament in the first place. So in reality, if anyone is going to blamed for the more convenient method of which Zeno will destroy the 8 universes, it Beerus and Champa. This just makes the fact that all the Hakaishin in the losing universes in the tournament will be killed all the more cleverly sadistic.

Everything about the multiverse tournament was specifically planned to fuck everyone over who was involved. I fucking love that.

I do like that aspect since it feeds into the overall message of the God stuff: they're all vicious cunts. But removing Goku's partial blame for that robs us of seeing him suffer some genuine consequences for his selfishness. That's why I hope Goku not forfeiting fucks everyone over next episode and everyone is forced back into the tournament.

[Doctor.]

She believe she had to marry Goku after kicking her crotch and did you see what she wore as a kid? Definitely not the act of a prude, not to mention she had no problems with displaying affection in public (see the end of Chapter 171).

I doubt she even wore that outfit intentionally. The fact that she believed she had to marry Goku after that just tells me she's a prude and that she's not up to date with social norms. Thus, not wanting to kiss or not knowing what kissing is isn't that out there.

Yes he is culpable. Goku initiated the tournament by going to Zeno about it, and openly defying Beerus and Whis when they told him not to. The universes even put all the blame on him for the tournament.

And with this reveal, Zeno was already going to wipe out all the universes anyway, Goku provided a way for one of them to survive.

Of course they're going to blame him, who else are they going to? Zeno? The Grand Priest? You think they want to get erased?

Yes, but you've just disagreed. Instead you made me your main target when TekTheNinja was the one who called Goku in Super a sociopath and TheMikado also seems to share that sentiment but nope, I'm the bad guy for simply saying that the label doesn't come completely out of nowhere.

TekTheNinja never replied to my response to him, and TheMikado never replied to my post to begin with (not to mention I don't have an issue starting a debate with him, I do that in multiple threads). You replied to me and you were the only one who continued with the debate, so of course you became my "main target", I didn't choose you specifically. Stop playing the victim card.

You're not a bad guy, but calling me an apologist as a way to discredit my arguments is going to leave me a bit more on the offensive.

Goku still had plenty of powers in reserves with SSJ3. In fact, he never showed his true strength till the fight with Kid Boo but he underestimated how much ki SSJ3 would drain. If Goku had the time to defeat Fat Boo and teach the kids the Fusion Dance then he probably would have done.

He could have taught them from the afterlife, as we know he can speak to them via Kaio.

Or he can put up a good fight then lose so nobody dies...

Still a gamble. There was no guarantee, tournament or no tournament, that the weak universes would survive. This is all the fault of Zeno/Grand Priest, not Goku's.

[DBZAOTA482]

He is responsible for the tournament happening but not for the rules. Sharing partial blame is fair. Not the whole thing because, again, there are many other instances caused by him in the original and very rarely do I see people place the blame on him alone.

Don't you try that. Goku gets full blame for initiating everything despite being warned and especially because he doesn't seem to care.

Vegeta is also clearly smarter than Goku and has a different developed character. So yeah. Goku is an idiot. Again, glad to see where on the same page.

No we are not. This goes far beyond common stupidity... it actually puts his entire marriage and family life into question.

What does "Maintain his innocence" even mean? He just stated a fact. A pretty funny fact given where he is now. Not many people can say they were dead for their childs birth but at least they're here now.

Like.. Goku shrugs his arms with a questioning look on his face and says "Look, I was dead when Goten was born! Wha'cha expect me to do?". It'd honestly be much funnier and make Goku look far less of a bad guy.

You said you could see why people would call Goku a sociopath and I disagreed that, that was even a reasonable thought. Thus the birth of a discussion that went on for days. And that's it. A discussion. No need to back off because I'm not attacking you. I'm just confused by your logic.

You're right. It is being an asshole. Goku can be an asshole. And you don't think he is a sociopath. So for the 3rd time, glad we're on the same page.

"Asshole" was my nice way of putting things, and I disagree with the "Goku is an asshole whatever" garbage purists keep throwing around.

Haters are very much worth speaking to. They have a perspective you might not and it's kind of fun to learn them. So it basically encourages the traits that Goku is known for but exaggerated them in a way fans don't appreciate? Like I've been saying. This is a really good page. I'm liking it a lot.

Sorry, I don't see how people who think stuff like "hurr durr goku is bad father he maek his son fight when it was the only way" or "goku stay ded for 7 yers for they're sake he dont care about family" while "vegeta love bulma and trunks cuz he sacrifice himself" or "piccolo is better father cuz he was with gohan for a year and tortured him for most of it" is worth talking to. Honestly, their perspectives ain't shit because it's mostly bias bullshit and it's made even worse with Super as these things are more or less true now. Same with the whole "chichi is bitch wife from hell" stuff.

[DBZAOTA482]

And with this reveal, Zeno was already going to wipe out all the universes anyway, Goku provided a way for one of them to survive.

Of course they're going to blame him, who else are they going to? Zeno? The Grand Priest? You think they want to get erased?

That honestly makes things worse because the story basically shat itself and prevented Goku from learning a lesson thus keeping him a static character.

He could have taught them from the afterlife, as we know he can speak to them via Kaio.

It would be far more difficult to tell them rather than to show them.

[Boo Machine]

Don't you try that. Goku gets full blame for initiating everything despite being warned and especially because he doesn't seem to care.

Then it's agreed that Goku is 100% responsible for the Cell arc and the Buu arc. He pissed of gero and didn't stop him, and he helped in setting Buu loose when he could have stopped it. He was warned about both. It's only fair.
I mean it isn't. Because that logic is silly. I can try that because it makes sense to consider it.

No we are not. This goes far beyond common stupidity... it actually puts his entire marriage and family life into question.

We totally are. We're like page brothers right now. It doesn't put anything into question. It does nothing of the sort. Not unless you overthink something that's WAY to deep for Dragonball. I feel like that would be going into cartoon theory territory. You know the ones. Like "In Ed, Edd, and Eddy all the kids are actually dead and in purgatory!".

"Gokus and chi chi having trouble! Does Goku fight because it keeps his mind off of his broken marriage?" Tragic.

Like.. Goku shrugs his arms with a questioning look on his face and says "Look, I was dead when Goten was born! Wha'cha expect me to do?". It'd honestly be much funnier and make Goku look far less of a bad guy.

You're suggestion makes him look just as bad. It's hardly different. This is one of those small jokes that barely worth the thought and honestly I'm surprised it was on anyone's radar.

"Asshole" was my nice way of putting things, and I disagree with the "Goku is an asshole whatever" garbage purists keep throwing around.

But he is. That's just true. Goku can be a good guy but he can also be kind of a dick. His actions and speech in certain situations show this. I don't view that as a bad thing, I'm not sure why you're so opposed to it.

Sorry, I don't see how people who think stuff like "hurr durr goku is bad father he maek his son fight when it was the only way" or "goku stay ded for 7 yers for they're sake he dont care about family" while "vegeta love bulma and trunks cuz he sacrifice himself" or "piccolo is better father cuz he was with gohan for a year and tortured him for most of it" is worth talking to. Honestly, their perspectives ain't shit because it's mostly bias bullshit and it's made even worse with Super as these things are more or less true now. Same with the whole "chichi is bitch wife from hell" stuff.

Because more often than not those view are either playfulness or a misunderstanding. In which case talking would be the only way to possibly change their minds or come to some kind of understanding. Everyones perspectives is Biased. Out entire conversation is more or less an example of that. And as I've said Goku being kind of a dick at times was a thing before super. Just because Super may exaggerate some characteristics of Goku and give the "haters" more ammo, isn't something that's supers fault. If you're annoyed at people using memes, than blame the people who take it and run with it. That's on them, not the show. Most people realize how Goku really is, so ignoring the ones that annoy you is probably the best option. Especially if you're going to get upset about them.

[DBZAOTA482]

Then it's agreed that Goku is 100% responsible for the Cell arc and the Buu arc. He pissed of gero and didn't stop him, and he helped in setting Buu loose when he could have stopped it. He was warned about both. It's only fair.
I mean it isn't. Because that logic is silly. I can try that because it makes sense to consider it.

Far from it because the Gero thing was a consensual agreement and the Boo arc wouldn't have happened at all if Kaioshin actually did his fucking research or if Vegeta wasn't such a man-bitch and took his L.

We totally are. We're like page brothers right now. It doesn't put anything into question. It does nothing of the sort. Not unless you overthink something that's WAY to deep for Dragonball. I feel like that would be going into cartoon theory territory. You know the ones. Like "In Ed, Edd, and Eddy all the kids are actually dead and in purgatory!".

"Gokus and chi chi having trouble! Does Goku fight because it keeps his mind off of his broken marriage?" Tragic.

I know, but there are people are like this. Please don't tell me you actually believe this joke... because any way you slice it, it's painfully forced and unfunny.

In fact, I wouldn't even mind shit like this so much if it were actually done to improve the story and characters rather than for cheap jokes and to pander to certain parts of the fandom... like so much of Super.

You're suggestion makes him look just as bad. It's hardly different. This is one of those small jokes that barely worth the thought and honestly I'm surprised it was on anyone's radar.

I don't see how. At least in my suggestion he would sound like he cares.

But he is. That's just true. Goku can be a good guy but he can also be kind of a dick. His actions and speech in certain situations show this. I don't view that as a bad thing, I'm not sure why you're so opposed to it.

Because the story doesn't treat him as an asshole. At most he's shown as a simple-minded country dweller but never unkind to others. An asshole definitely can't be considered "pure of heart".

Because more often than not those view are either playfulness or a misunderstanding. In which case talking would be the only way to possibly change their minds or come to some kind of understanding. Everyones perspectives is Biased. Out entire conversation is more or less an example of that. And as I've said Goku being kind of a dick at times was a thing before super. Just because Super may exaggerate some characteristics of Goku and give the "haters" more ammo, isn't something that's supers fault. If you're annoyed at people using memes, than blame the people who take it and run with it. That's on them, not the show. Most people realize how Goku really is, so ignoring the ones that annoy you is probably the best option. Especially if you're going to get upset about them.

I've tried to ignore but ever since Super came out, it's gotten a lot worse so that option kinda doesn't apply unless I drop Dragon Ball altogether and as a fellow hardcore fan, you gotta feel me there.

I try not to hate Super (specifically the anime) but considering it can be so much more than it lets itself be and how it's more harm than good for Goku's image, it's a real uphill battle.

[Boo Machine]

Far from it because the Gero thing was a consensual agreement and the Boo arc wouldn't have happened at all if Kaioshin actually did his fucking research or if Vegeta wasn't such a man-bitch and took his L.

Exactly. Neither was 100% Gokus fault. That's where I'm getting at. Same with the tourny. Goku gets to share a lot of the blame for starting it, but he isn't alone, Zeno deserves just as much for making it a death match.

I know, but there are people are like this. Please don't tell me you actually believe this joke... because any way you slice it, it's painfully forced and unfunny.

In fact, I wouldn't even mind shit like this so much if it were actually done to improve the story and characters rather than for cheap jokes and to pander to certain parts of the fandom... like so much of Super.

Which Joke? Because either way no. It maybe forced and unfunny, but it's still only a joke.

I don't see how. At least in my suggestion he would sound like he cares.

It makes him look worse because in your situation he sounds like just like he did when he told Gohan he got an earful. Which a lot of people has a problem with.

Because the story doesn't treat him as an asshole. At most he's shown as a simple-minded country dweller but never unkind to others. An asshole definitely can't be considered "pure of heart".

I know it doesn't treat him like an asshole. Because he gets away with all his decisions and very rarely is he called out. Same with Super. It may not be considered pure of heart by our standards, which is to mean all good and does the right thing I'm assuming, but it's pretty clear that Dragonball doesn't play by our standards of what is pure. Because Goku isn't an asshole on purpose. He just is because he doesn't get social norm. Which isn't a bad thing. At least I don't think it is.

I've tried to ignore but ever since Super came out, it's gotten a lot worse so that option kinda doesn't apply unless I drop Dragon Ball altogether and as a fellow hardcore fan, you gotta feel me there.

Sure I do. But ignore is pretty much the only option available if you don't want to engage in those people you may deem annoying or not worth talking to. It's what I do and it works wonders for the most part.

I try not to hate Super (specifically the anime) but considering it can be so much more than it lets itself be and how it's more harm than good for Goku's image, it's a real uphill battle.

Don't feel like you can't hate Super if you don't like it. Feel free to dislike it. I'm pretty sure most here agree that Super could be better.

[TekTheNinja]

Are you actually insane? Stuff like that hardly ever happens and when it does, it's frowned upon because NO ONE COULD ROOT FOR SUCH AN IRREDEEMABLE PERSON

Yes, people can. If a character is entertaining and interesting enough, they can get people to root for them despite their deplorable morals.

No. You can't. You can like the character. Joker and Yoshikage Kira come to mind, but the story doesn't expect you to root for them to win. You don't root for the Joker, you root for Batman. You don't root for Kira, you root for Josuke. Even Death Note which had a deplorable as fuck protagonist didn't actually expect you to root for him. Even though Light was the focus, the ones you were really led to root for were Light and Mello.