Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It is interesting however that while Toriyama himself has maintained that "lousy father" point about Goku, the anime staff at Toei especially during Z did much to massively downplay it likely because they decided they wanted to deviate from this aspect and interpret the character in their own ways. Hence all the scenes and such which paint a much different picture in terms of Goku's relationship with his sons but especially Gohan during his childhood years.

Which is something he later stated he had always been dissatisfied with (forgot which interview) The biggest example of this how Goku reacts to Goten in the manga and how Toei had him react in the anime. Night and day.
A lot of people blamed TFS for Goku's rougher characterization in Super, particularly when it came to parenting, but I just think this was Toei trying to match Toriyama's version and maybe overcompensating a bit from time to time.

Yeah, it is indeed quite a drastic difference between manga/Toriyama Goku and Toei DBZ Goku especially that bit there when he first meets Goten at the 25th Budokai after reuniting with the rest of the crew. His characterization in Super does lean more toward the first in terms of character but even then he still isn't quite entirely accurate to the original manga's and thus Toriyama's own interpretation so it seems they still took liberties here and there. During Z, I figure it was due to the anime's writers not exactly being that fond of the manga's version of Goku thus why they added material showing him and Gohan having a much more close and explicit father-son relationship through all the flashbacks and other scenes. If anything the difference really shows their own mindset in doing so. My own view is that while those changes made it less accurate it at least made sense for the product they were animating for television week after week.

[Planetnamek]

The problem with that is white people do not experience anywhere NEAR the amount of discrimination that minorities do and he fails to grasp that, he's like one of those people that keeps saying "All Lives Matter" in response to the concern groups like Black Lives Matter raise. When you've spent as much time as I have on pro-black websites like The Root, you start to recognize subtle forms of racism like that.

Most of Zeno's ignorance in that area was displayed on the Vic thread, once you read his posts there you'll see what i'm getting at.

I'm a minority and I agree all forms of discrimination are wrong. I'm just saying that he's not the only person who shares his opinion so trying to shut him down won't solve anything. He's being pretty civil and not attacking anyone. Whenever politicals are brought up online, they usually turn into a heated off topic argument that doesn't go anywhere. If you're asking to get the mods involved, they would probably recommend staying on topic and what this thread was originally about.

I wouldn't call anything he's said on the Vic thread the least bit "civil", also i've seen plenty of racists act all "Civil" while still being low-key racist and sexist so civility in itself does not necessarily mean you are a good person.

[Zeon_Grunt]

I see nothing "respectful" about repeating arguments verbatim that i've seen by Gamergaters on social media all the time, this whole "oh white people are discriminated against just as much as minorities are!" and "men are sexualized just as much as women!" nonsense is a dangerous lie that I won't allow to stand, and i'm sure Kunzait would agree with me on that. I don't give a rat's ass about changing their opinion, I just want them gone.

When he say that? I might've missed it but it sounds like he's saying that all forms of discrimination are wrong based on his most recent post and spent most of the previous pages explaining what fair use was without attacking anyone.

Because that's basically all I've done, but as pointed out earlier, the moment I posted that I felt the narrative that Vic was homophobic for not endorsing non-canon fan-works that blatantly went against the canon lore of the series was a bit ridiculous, Planetnamek lost their shit. I admitted in that very thread that if how Vic reacted to it actually portrayed a sense of homophobia (I don't know personally because I've never seen any footage of the event or seen eyewitness accounts, only ever "I read online that Vic refused to sign yoai! HOMOPHOBE!"), just that the argument he presented (I don't like it because it goes against the canon nature of the characters), regardless of how true it applies to his situation, is not an invalid one. They took that as defending Vic and suddenly I'm a white supremacist bigot and nothing I have to say about anything, regardless of the message being sent out (like you know, everyone is by birthright perfectly equal and should be treated 100% equally; that all laws and regulations should be applied to everyone equally rather than trying to apply them to unevenly one gender or sexuality or race)

I should probably make it very clear I DON'T LIKE AS A PERSON, NOR CONDONE THE ACTIONS OF, VIC. Defense of the idea behind an argument is not defense of the person who holds the idea. Likewise, the defense of one's right to hold any opinion they want, regardless of how problematic or harmful it may be, is not a defense of said ideals, it's a recognition that everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression. So long as they aren't breaking the law, you can't take that away just because you don't like what they're saying. You're not a school, the world isn't an internet forum with a "be nice" rule

The problem with that is white people do not experience anywhere NEAR the amount of discrimination that minorities do and he fails to grasp that

And here we go with the pissing match. Dude, one act of discrimination does not condone another in retaliation (for instance, just because the Suni population in the Iraq has been historically slaughtered by the Shiits who held power, doesn't mean when the power dynamic shifted it was ok for the Sunis to start slaughtering the Shiits in retaliation for the generations of mistreatment; or the groups are the other way around, I haven't really looked into the history of the Iraqi civil war in a few years). That's factually not how you deal with -isms of any positive or productive kind whatsoever and literally anyone who has done any actual research into the effectiveness of combating problematic or radical idealists will tell you this.

he's like one of those people that keeps saying "All Lives Matter" in response to the concern groups like Black Lives Matter raise. When you've spent as much time as I have on pro-black websites like The Root, you start to recognize subtle forms of racism like that.

Here we go with the "he's like [insert extremist right wing bullshit]" crap again. (For the record, I support Black Lives Matter, because there is a police brutality problem, especially against black menbut I also acknowledge that movements and ideals like ACAB are complete bullshit; it's no better than assuming all strippers are super sluts with low self esteem and no self respect) One whiff of "your ideas on gender/racial politics aren't valid" (even if that's not what's being said by anyone but, ironically, you), and suddenly the other side is a literal Nazi. All you've done since this spat on the Vic topic started was make accusation after accusation of me being a white supremacist who must love alt-right media and hate the GSRM community and want them eradicated.

If you actually went back to the thread and stopped trying to disregard everything I said with the basis of "bigot therefore invalid," I ended up agreeing with and expressing a lot of opinions that another GSRM member brought up.

It's people like you who constantly misuse the term "Nazi" to describe anything remotely right wing or traditionalist, or egalitarian in value... really anything that doesn't conform to the extreme left, that make normal people actively not want to identify with either side of the spectrum. Having a problematic world view or even just being an actual sexist or bigot is not being a Nazi, believing that one combination of race/sexual orientation is superior to all else to the point of wanting to commit genocide or eugenics is.

[ABED]

The thing is, while the warrior of justice feels like Toei, I don't think Goku enjoying being a dad and granddad goes against established characterization. While maybe going for the heartstrings isn't the most Toriyama thing, it's not contradictory to Goku's nature.

[Michsi]

The thing is, while the warrior of justice feels like Toei, I don't think Goku enjoying being a dad and granddad goes against established characterization. While maybe going for the heartstrings isn't the most Toriyama thing, it's not contradictory to Goku's nature.

Well, no, he can be an affectionate person so seeing him enjoying being around his family is very well in character. Toriyama, however, has pretty clearly depicted Goku as someone that isn't very attached to family life. The ease with which he leaves them, the lackluster attention he gives Goten -, there are many instances that support Toriyama's statements in interviews.

[ABED]

The thing is, while the warrior of justice feels like Toei, I don't think Goku enjoying being a dad and granddad goes against established characterization. While maybe going for the heartstrings isn't the most Toriyama thing, it's not contradictory to Goku's nature.

Well, no, he can be an affectionate person so seeing him enjoying being around his family is very well in character. Toriyama, however, has pretty clearly depicted Goku as someone that isn't very attached to family life. The ease with which he leaves them, the lackluster attention he gives Goten -, there are many instances that support Toriyama's statements in interviews.

I don't see that. He leaves them when he knows they can take care of themselves. He's with Gohan for the first 4 years of his life and only leaves when he's killed. And I don't see how he doesn't give attention to Goten.

[Michsi]

The thing is, while the warrior of justice feels like Toei, I don't think Goku enjoying being a dad and granddad goes against established characterization. While maybe going for the heartstrings isn't the most Toriyama thing, it's not contradictory to Goku's nature.

Well, no, he can be an affectionate person so seeing him enjoying being around his family is very well in character. Toriyama, however, has pretty clearly depicted Goku as someone that isn't very attached to family life. The ease with which he leaves them, the lackluster attention he gives Goten -, there are many instances that support Toriyama's statements in interviews.

I don't see that. He leaves them when he knows they can take care of themselves. He's with Gohan for the first 4 years of his life and only leaves when he's killed. And I don't see how he doesn't give attention to Goten.

He needed Chichi to tell him to give Goten a hug before he supposedly left forever, he literally would've walked away without so much as a nod in the kid's direction otherwise. If you see the role as a father as just a semi-present provider and it's no big deal if he leaves because the rest of the family can take care of themselves then we just have very different notions of what it means to be a family man.

[Zeon_Grunt]

If you see the role as a father as just a semi-present provider

As much as I love Goku, what can we honestly say he's "providing" for his family when he is around other than financial drain and a complete disregard for his children's social and academic futures?

It's pretty canon that all Goku really did when at home is eat an unsustainable amount of food and fuck about for years. We have to remember that it wasn't until Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return that Goku actually got a job, and that takes place decades after they got married and started a family.

[ABED]

Well, no, he can be an affectionate person so seeing him enjoying being around his family is very well in character. Toriyama, however, has pretty clearly depicted Goku as someone that isn't very attached to family life. The ease with which he leaves them, the lackluster attention he gives Goten -, there are many instances that support Toriyama's statements in interviews.

I don't see that. He leaves them when he knows they can take care of themselves. He's with Gohan for the first 4 years of his life and only leaves when he's killed. And I don't see how he doesn't give attention to Goten.

He needed Chichi to tell him to give Goten a hug before he supposedly left forever, he literally would've walked away without so much as a nod in the kid's direction otherwise. If you see the role as a father as just a semi-present provider and it's no big deal if he leaves because the rest of the family can take care of themselves then we just have very different notions of what it means to be a family man.

It's not about being a provider, a big role of a father is to make sure the kid has the necessary tools to take care of themselves. Goten and Gohan are able to do that at a young age. We're dealing with a fantasy world where people can fly, move at super speed, and shoot energy blasts. Even at a young age, Goten and Gohan have the skills to live on their own and take care of themselves. I don't think academics are as necessary if you don't really want or need them to live and thrive.

I don't recall the moment with Goten you're talking about.

The idea that Goku needs a job to support his family is ridiculous. He seems to live with an ample supply of water and he can hunt when he's hungry.

[Peach]

I don't necessarily care what the author's evaluation of their characters or story are. What I care about is the story and I'll judge the characters for myself. I don't think Goku's a great dad, but he's not awful either

Goku reminded me a lot of my father when i was younger. Not around, but my best friend when he was.

Getting to see my dad after my parent's divorce was like Gohan seeing Goku that first time after the 7 years gap in the Buu arc.

I don't think Goku is a bad dad at all. I see him as a very loving one and a very nuiansed one like my father.

[Michsi]

I don't see that. He leaves them when he knows they can take care of themselves. He's with Gohan for the first 4 years of his life and only leaves when he's killed. And I don't see how he doesn't give attention to Goten.

He needed Chichi to tell him to give Goten a hug before he supposedly left forever, he literally would've walked away without so much as a nod in the kid's direction otherwise. If you see the role as a father as just a semi-present provider and it's no big deal if he leaves because the rest of the family can take care of themselves then we just have very different notions of what it means to be a family man.

It's not about being a provider, a big role of a father is to make sure the kid has the necessary tools to take care of themselves. Goten and Gohan are able to do that at a young age. We're dealing with a fantasy world where people can fly, move at super speed, and shoot energy blasts. Even at a young age, Goten and Gohan have the skills to live on their own and take care of themselves. I don't think academics are as necessary if you don't really want or need them to live and thrive.

I don't recall the moment with Goten you're talking about.

The idea that Goku needs a job to support his family is ridiculous. He seems to live with an ample supply of water and he can hunt when he's hungry.

The provider bit was just a generalized and desensitized definition of a father role, I didn't mean it literally. You can substitute "provider" with " semi-present figure". And again, what you are describing is in my mind a very narrow presentation of what a family man should be, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

The Goten scene happens at the Lookout, right before he leaves for the Afterlife.

[ABED]

I'm not claiming he shouldn't be present, but a good chunk of his role as a father is done when his kids are really young. He's not leaving them unable to take care of themselves when he's gone. Sure there's more like providing love and emotional support, but he's not emotionally withholding or abusive. At worst, he's like a rockstar that enjoys a life on the road a little too much, but when he's home with his kids is loving and kind.

I can't speak to the Buu arc scene. I don't remember it offhand.

It also seems like you think I'm arguing he's a great role model of fatherhood and at no point did I ever say that, so I don't know why you are framing you rebuttals as "we have different notions of what it means to be a father." We don't actually, I simply don't think he qualifies as a terrible one, and context matters. DB's world is very different from ours. Almost 50% of a parent's job is simply keeping the damn kids alive, but seeing as how damn near from birth the kids are practically impervious to anything that could cause them injury, that role is pretty much taken care of. In such a world, Goku and Chichi's role would mainly be one of emotionally preparing their kids to live in the world. They have power, but they would need their parents to teach them when to use it and when not to. That also doesn't seem like it's a big issue in the Son family.

[Michsi]

I'm not claiming he shouldn't be present, but a good chunk of his role as a father is done when his kids are really young. He's not leaving them unable to take care of themselves when he's gone. Sure there's more like providing love and emotional support, but he's not emotionally withholding or abusive. At worst, he's like a rockstar that enjoys a life on the road a little too much, but when he's home with his kids is loving and kind.

I can't speak to the Buu arc scene. I don't remember it offhand.

It also seems like you think I'm arguing he's a great role model of fatherhood and at no point did I ever say that, so I don't know why you are framing you rebuttals as "we have different notions of what it means to be a father." We don't actually, I simply don't think he qualifies as a terrible one, and context matters. DB's world is very different from ours.

I don't think you wanted to frame him as a great role model, but rather that he is decent enough, to which I'm not sure I'd agree. But no, I would never say terrible, or God forbid, abusive. He is just lacking in that department and that's fine. The whole idea was that I think Toriyama's statements outside of the story are in line with what we've seen in the manga.

[ABED]

Fair enough. I think decent enough is a good descriptor. I think Goku is a decent enough father.

[10gigtriforce]

Well, no, he can be an affectionate person so seeing him enjoying being around his family is very well in character. Toriyama, however, has pretty clearly depicted Goku as someone that isn't very attached to family life. The ease with which he leaves them, the lackluster attention he gives Goten -, there are many instances that support Toriyama's statements in interviews.

I don't see that. He leaves them when he knows they can take care of themselves. He's with Gohan for the first 4 years of his life and only leaves when he's killed. And I don't see how he doesn't give attention to Goten.

He needed Chichi to tell him to give Goten a hug before he supposedly left forever, he literally would've walked away without so much as a nod in the kid's direction otherwise. If you see the role as a father as just a semi-present provider and it's no big deal if he leaves because the rest of the family can take care of themselves then we just have very different notions of what it means to be a family man.

I thought it was chich telling goten it was ok to ask for one.


goku is more the type that doesnt care about love etc himself, but when his wife/kids care about getting love from him hes has no problem with it because its important to them even if it isnt to him.

[XanatosVanBadass]

Maybe it would help if we knew exactly What Toriyama said in that interview. Was this the same interview where he said Goku saw his family more as friends?

[WittyUsername]

As far as Goku’s skills as a parent are concerned, at the very least, he didn’t seem to be a hindrance to Gohan’s scholarly prospects, and he certainly never abused his kids like Vegeta did to Future Trunks.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Not sure how this turned into a thread about Goku's dad abilities but

With Super, the Buu Arc, and Toriyama's owned admittance that Goku doesn't spend much time thinking about his family it's not really fanon anymore. Sure the Goku of the Saiyan Arc is a concerned and caring parent but, at this point, I don't see what's to be gained by pretending he still is. It isn't a question of nuance. Goku, because of his genetics, doesn't feel much attachment to his family, at least no more attachment than what he feels towards any interesting group of strangers.

Personally I would love if Goku were more of a dad and more of a "family man" but that's just fanwank. (Like Yamcha and the gang all being friends despite the amount of contempt they show him throughout the later half of the story and Super.) It's latching onto an earlier version of these characters and ignoring all new information/stories that have come out.

[ABED]

I find that logic specious that he doesn't care about his family any more than a group of strangers. Clearly Goku has a strong attachment to some more than others. He has a group of friends that he hangs around with and it guts Goku when harm comes to them.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I find that logic specious that he doesn't care about his family any more than a group of strangers. Clearly Goku has a strong attachment to some more than others. He has a group of friends that he hangs around with and it guts Goku when harm comes to them.

Goku always flips out whenever he witnesses sensless destruction and death. The only character we can definitively say he cares about is Krillin. Krillin is the one who triggers the SSJ transformation and whom Goku goes out of his way to accomodate. Everyone else is pretty much on their own as far as Goku is concerned however angry their untimely deaths might make him.