Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[TheNingen]

That;s a really good point. Can't believe that went over my head. May have to give the movie a second watch.

Z-Broly did have a love of black comedy. The absurdity of a 8 (9?) foot tall goliath using Goku's torso as a trampoline still makes me giggle during rewatches. Shame we didn't see more of that in Broly's follow up appearances. At least Cooler got to keep his mannerisms in his second movie. Broly lost the smirk and the cruelty.

Cheers man, no worries. I would recommend a rewatch of Super: Broly but I'd cautiously say that the hype does wear down quite a bit around the third or so watch. I enjoy the first half much more narratively speaking but the fight scenes in the second half are still stunning.

Yeah, the sequels forever tainted Z Broly's image. I think a key difference is that Broly made an absolute joke of the Z-Fighters in Movie 8, but by Movie 10 the jokes were suddenly on him (i.e. getting pissed on by Trunks). The trampoline scene is funny but it's also terrifying. It's a strong contender on a "Top 5 Bad Guy Tortures Goku Scenes, Making You Wonder If He's a Hardcore Masochist" list, lmao.

Part of Broly's insanity was also attributed to his huge power as a child causing him to go insane. This was used in both Z and Super Broly's characters.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Second Coming Broly trapped in the ice for like...months? I think there was someone who made a point about the trauma from his loss to Goku, lack of oxygen to the brain, and sheer power causing his brain to devolve to where he couldn't speak much or whatever. I don't know. It's been a while.

[ABED]

A tragic backstory doesn't make a character any less generic than a minimalist personality.

If you don't focus on that backstory at all, like in the case of Broly, then it won't. Had his traumatic past played a more important role in the movie, he would've absolutely been a more compelling villain. One of the mistakes they fixed with Super Broly.

As far as I recall, there's nothing in the movie even hinting at Broly's traumatic experience possibly shaping him into the monster he became, which is a major missed opportunity. Especially since they made a trilogy out of this character.

Traumatic sob stories are really overused and frankly boring. They don’t make a character more interesting. I don’t think it was a “fixed mistake” at all

I absolutely agree. A good flashback or backstory are a cherry on top; not a cure-all.

[SupremeKai25]

I know a sad anime backstory doesn't necessarily improve a character. For example, I think they should have just cut Jiren's backstory entirely if they were going to cram it into a 2 minutes flashback in-between fights. Doesn't mean it's not a missed opportunity. Z Broly had the potential to be a much more compelling villain if they developed him better in the other movies. And completely cut Bio-Broly, because I don't understand what the point of that monster was. If you're going to make a third Broly movie, bring back the actual Broly.

Ultimately Broly looked cool, but Paragus was the better villain imho.

[LoganForkHands73]

Part of Broly's insanity was also attributed to his huge power as a child causing him to go insane. This was used in both Z and Super Broly's characters.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Second Coming Broly trapped in the ice for like...months? I think there was someone who made a point about the trauma from his loss to Goku, lack of oxygen to the brain, and sheer power causing his brain to devolve to where he couldn't speak much or whatever. I don't know. It's been a while.

Aye that is another consistency between the two versions.

It makes sense for Broly to have mentally degenerated between the two movies, I mean getting punched in the chest so hard you explode go into a coma, somehow end up on Earth (!??) and get frozen would be pretty traumatic. Unfortunately, the plot point of him being brain damaged didn't aid his character at all, it just turned him into a boring caricature of his old self.

[ABED]

Jiren's story worked fine not necessarily as a sob story but for me it was effective in giving us a scenario where he might otherwise by sympathetic if he learned the right lesson from his tragedy.

[WittyUsername]

The problem with Jiren’s backstory isn’t so much that it’s a sob story, but more that it’s the most generic possible tragic backstory you could give someone, especially with how it’s used as the explanation for why Jiren is a brooding loner who’s a jerk to everyone.

[JulieYBM]

Eeeh, I have my own ideas for how I would like to handle Jiren but I don't think 'generic backstory' is that strong a criticism. Mind you, the romance schlock I write is probably 'generic' too but I think the real key is storytelling, not just story or world-building.

Faults: Nakamura took too long to show expand on Jiren's backstory. These things should have been peppered into the tournament if it he was going to have a backstory at all. Jiren also needed more inner monologues. Hanawa Eiji's performance really would have sold those.

Strengths: Hanawa Eiji really sells Jiren's contempt for everyone else. Episode #131 Director Ishitani Megumi also masterfully depicts Jiren's spiritual healing, so there's this concrete feeling that although Jiren lost the tournament he left the tournament more powerful than ever before. Frankly, I wish the arc had been a Jiren POV story but unfortunately marketing executives give us non-stop Gokuu.

[ABED]

Strengths: Hanawa Eiji really sells Jiren's contempt for everyone else. Episode #131 Director Ishitani Megumi also masterfully depicts Jiren's spiritual healing, so there's this concrete feeling that although Jiren lost the tournament he left the tournament more powerful than ever before. Frankly, I wish the arc had been a Jiren POV story but unfortunately marketing executives give us non-stop Gokuu.

I agree on the first point, but not on the last. It's not marketing execs giving us "non-stop Goku". It's basic storytelling of focusing on the main character. He's the protagonist. Has DB ever told the story from the villain's POV?

especially with how it’s used as the explanation for why Jiren is a brooding loner who’s a jerk to everyone.

But it doesn't really explain why he's a jerk as much as it shows why someone might be obsessed with strength. It doesn't explain why he's a jerk. And he's more nuanced than I think he's given credit for. He's a jerk, but not a villain. He seems to forsake friendships in his pursuit of strength but he has allies who are admirable in their own way.

[SupremeKai25]

I think it would've been much more interesting if Jiren won the Tournament of Power, but Goku's words changed him so much that he decided to wish back the other universes, completing his transition into a selfless person who values comradery and friendship. I actually thought this was going to happen back in the day. It would've been a nice plot twist meant to further Jiren's character development and not just surprise the audience.

[ABED]

I think it would've been much more interesting if Jiren won the Tournament of Power, but Goku's words changed him so much that he decided to wish back the other universes, completing his transition into a selfless person who values comradery and friendship. I actually thought this was going to happen back in the day. It would've been a nice plot twist meant to further Jiren's character development and not just surprise the audience.

While interesting, U7 won because they used team work even among mortal enemies. Jiren winning proves the opposite point.

[LoganForkHands73]

The idea of Jiren winning and changing his wish is quite cool, ngl. Although the problems brought up with that kind of conclusion ultimately come down to Dragon Ball's minor identity crisis that it's been having since at least the latter half of Z. On the one hand DB is constantly telling us that individual hard work pays off, on the other we get storylines like the Tournament of Power that tell us the importance of teamwork. Of course they aren't mutually exclusive, but how many times now have Goku and Vegeta learned the same lesson about working together only to go back to the same "muh own strength" mentality every arc? I rewatched Resurrection F the other day and it's both sad and hilarious that Goku and Vegeta flat out ignore the moral of the story. The Moro arc has seen a little development in this regard now that Vegeta has sought help from the Yardrats but you could say even that was motivated out of him getting sick of relying on Goku.

[Matches Malone]

I think Jiren winning the tournament could've been interesting if his motives and outlook on life were established early, and if he gradually changed throughout the tournament. Tien is a great example of what I'm talking about. He was introduced as a cold character who wanted to follow the likes of Tao, but throughout the 22nd Tenkaichi and especially his battle with Goku, we see him gradually change and question his goals, resulting in a naturally changed character at the end. The problem with Jiren is that we know nothing about him the entire time we spend with him, which leads to his backstory and change of heart seeming forced due to them being introduced at the very end of the arc. Why wait so long to establish your main antagonist's goals and story ? The arc was 55 episodes long, yet they decided to do that in the last 2-3 episodes ?

[ABED]

But we knew what his goal was - survival. The difference with Tenshinhan was his motivation did change slightly from win at all cost to win with honor.

I rewatched Resurrection F the other day and it's both sad and hilarious that Goku and Vegeta flat out ignore the moral of the story.

Was that the moral? If so, it does a terrible job of dramatizing it since either of them could take Freeza.

[LoganForkHands73]

But we knew what his goal was - survival. The difference with Tenshinhan was his motivation did change slightly from win at all cost to win with honor.

I rewatched Resurrection F the other day and it's both sad and hilarious that Goku and Vegeta flat out ignore the moral of the story.

Was that the moral? If so, it does a terrible job of dramatizing it since either of them could take Freeza.

Whis prods them about their specific character flaws (i.e. Goku's overly lax nature, Vegeta's tendency to overthink) and pushes them to team up more often, but just before the credits roll they literally both smirk and say that they never will, proudly admitting that they've walked away from the whole experience having learned nothing. If they had teamed up and didn't dither around constantly, the conflict would've been over even faster. It's more of a combination of all of these flaws contributing to their monumental fuck ups during that film.

[ABED]

I was kidding. I've seen the movie. I was commenting on the moral not being well dramatized if that was indeed the moral the writer(s) was aiming for. The thing is they didn't monumentally screw up. Goku was bound to defeat Freeza before he inexplicably gets taken down by a pea shooter.

[LoganForkHands73]

I was kidding. I've seen the movie. I was commenting on the moral not being well dramatized if that was indeed the moral the writer(s) was aiming for. The thing is they didn't monumentally screw up. Goku was bound to defeat Freeza before he inexplicably gets taken down by a pea shooter.

Ah. Well, you can look at it more generally as a lesson to get the Saiyans to stop fucking around in fights generally, but we all know that'll never happen. If they'd have taken the threat seriously from the start and cooperated even a little bit instead of squabbling like kids, the situation of Goku getting shot and Frieza destroying the planet might not have happened. I consider those pretty big failures on their part.

But with that, I really don't want to die on a hill talking about Resurrection F of all things, lmao.

[ABED]

Except that isn't the point of the show. Their aim isn't to save the world. It's to have the best fights and test themselves.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

[FoolsGil]

Can an entire species be labeled a Mary Sue?

Lets face facts: Freeza should not have been so damn strong or introduced when he was. Toriyama had to create zenkais because he set Freeza's power to be so astronomical to everyone else. Then to keep upping the suspense he kept adding to Freeza, so then he made Super Saiyan to keep up. Then because shonen anime is always about stronger opponents to face, Saiyans had to keep unlocking stronger and stronger transformations to keep up, and because Toriyama had already neglected everyone not Goku by that time, he kept adding on to the Saiyans so Future Trunks can be a Super Saiyan, and thus Vegeta had to be a super saiyan, and so on.

Consider that Piccolo endlessly trains, and Gohan slacked off during the seven years between Cell and Buu, and after seven years Piccolo still isn't anywhere near Perfect Cell's level, while after 7 years Gohan would give a less one sided fight, compared to back then.

And while this is more about Goku and Vegeta, when Super isn't giving them new transformations, they're getting all the training with Whis, getting all the ROSAT training now that the pesky rules have been lifted it goes on. Even for a shonen property where its common for the top main character to get more love than everyone else, Saiyans get waaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

[LoganForkHands73]

I agree, but my point is that the Super era generally, even going back to Battle of Gods (which probably handled it with the most nuance), has hammered in these themes of teamwork vs. personal struggle. I'm not saying I agree with them being there, but they rammed into each one. Each arc seems to fall on either end of this spectrum.

Battle of Gods: Wisely doesn't give any definitive answers, instead provides a balance and lets the viewer come to their own conclusions.
Resurrection F: "Teamwork" but doesn't follow through because of the total lack of consequences
Universe 6: Straightforward "personal struggle"
Goku Black: "Teamwork"
Universe Survival: About 70% "teamwork", 30% "personal struggle"

What makes Dragon Ball interesting is that the protagonists do operate on alien priority systems most of the time, I'm not denying that, but their weird priorities often have very negative consequences.