I'm getting a very strong feeling that some of you arguing against Gohan are basing your arguments on the anime rather than the manga. If we're gonna be talking about what Toriyama directly wrote, then you should be looking at the manga.
jjgp1112 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:23 am
A story that revolves around Gohan would become a story with a different purpose, and one that Toriyama had no interest in telling once it became time to have an actual villain and not just dick around doing high school stuff. And he already had to alter Gohan's character just to do the high school stories.
What high school stuff? What stories? We barely see any of Gohan in high school in the manga. It only took five chapters from starting high school to getting blackmailed into entering the tournament during which he's only in school for one chapter and a handful of other panels. Those five chapters translated to about two and a half episodes worth of content which they stretched out to 5 full episodes and added a stupid love triangle subplot. If there's any dicking around in high school, it's in anime filler. The manga moves on very quickly from high school.
And besides that, it doesn't alter Gohan's character, it adds to it. He's a sheltered kid who grew up around heroes and villains his entire childhood and we have a 7 year gap where we don't know what he's been up to. We don't see much of his personality outside of fighting bad guys and having a kind spirit so there's not much to be inconsistent with.
Besides that, the story did revolve around Gohan whenever Goku wasn't around.
jjgp1112 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:23 am
I'm as big of a Gohan fan as you'll find here, but let's be real: Gohan's role as the hero in the Cell saga was tacked on and had no actual narrative build up.
This whole "Goku's absences proves the story could work without him!" point that keeps getting tossed around in this thread at every turn is just absurdly disingenuous, because his absence WAS the story and source of tension.
Do y'all listen to Dragon Ball or do y'all just skim through it?
Everyone waiting for Goku is the A story. It's a broad story skeleton copy/pasted from the King Piccolo saga ad nauseum. The real meat of every arc of DBZ is what everyone is doing until Goku arrives. From the moment Gohan was introduced, he's been the star of an overarching B story which has always been "Gohan has a vast power sleeping in him that could surpass Goku": Goku realized it and wanted to train him but Chi-Chi wouldn't let him. Raditz witnessed his power and Piccolo trained him because of his potential. From fighting Vegeta he gained the confidence to fight. Throughout Namek we saw Gohan continually stand his ground against overwhelming foes and put himself in harm's way to protect others to the point he actually almost dies. He's shown to be like his father but not his equal in power yet. Then he gets his potential unlocked by Guru making Vegeta mistake his ki for Goku's and he even manages to hurt Frieza. Toriyama keeps giving us these glimpses of Gohan's power for a reason, and it may not seem like much but that's development. What more do you expect from a seat of his pants writing style?
Gohan doesn't do much during the Android saga but that's because Toriyama changed the villain multiple times. 19 and 20 were barely introduced (around for only 10 chapters) before Trunks says "these are not the droids you're looking for". Then 16, 17 and 18 are around for less than 10 chapters before Gohan discovers Cell, Piccolo fights Cell, and Goku recovers from his virus.
Right after waking up, Goku states his intention to transcend Super Saiyan by training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber with Gohan and whisks him off. The first thing he tells Gohan when they enter is Gohan has to unlock Super Saiyan and that he wants Gohan to be even stronger than himself. And over the next 13+ chapters, while Trunks and Vegeta struggle against Cell, we see Gohan's growth, not Goku's. And after leaving the Time Chamber, Goku acknowledges Cell is probably stronger than him but he isn't worried. 10 chapters later Goku tags out for Gohan. I'd say that's a
ton of narrative build up and if anything, Gohan surpassing Goku is the one thing Toriyama decided long in advance.
It wasn't tacked on, it was developed bit by bit in every arc until it pays off in the Cell saga. And then the Buu saga kicks off by announcing Gohan is the new main character and when the plot begins to thicken, it puts Gohan in the position of being the one everyone is waiting for. If you really contend Goku's absence was the story and source of tension previously, then Gohan's absence is it here. He's the one who's taken out of the action, set up for a new amazing power boost while everyone else struggles, and returns at the last hour when all hope is seemingly lost just like Goku did with the Super Spirit Water, just like with King Kai's training, just like when he awakened Super Saiyan. Gohan was set up to save the day like Goku did in past arcs until Toriyama changed his mind about it at the last second with no warning. Were
you paying attention or did you just skim through that stuff?
Vegetto is really cool and all, and having Mr. Satan ultimately save the day was a fun, poetic twist, but they still don't change the fact that having Gohan lose to Buu and then unceremoniously die after being rescued undercuts Gohan's entire arc in the Buu saga. And it is absurdly disingenuous to act like Gohan wasn't being set up to be the hero. At the least he should have been part of the final battle with Goku and Vegeta so that build up wouldn't have felt like a waste of time.
Majin Buu wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:07 pm
The Cell arc had Gohan becoming the strongest and defeating the big bad. Anything more would ultimately just amount to him doing that again.
As opposed to Goku becoming the strongest for the umpteenth time and defeating the big bad? What do you think Goku's arc is in every arc? At least Gohan has the potential to do the exact same thing while also having some depth as a character. And if you don't want depth then at least follow through on Goku's own word that he was done being alive and saving Earth. It seriously would have been interesting and refreshing for the final arc to show us that the people Goku left behind are able to take care of themselves.
ABED wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:44 am
Actually I'd say DBZ is already pretty close to being a superhero story. Goku's retconned origin is essentially Superman's origin. His powers include flight, super speed, super strength, teleportation, and shooting energy beams. He fights evil and has an archenemy who wants to take over the whole galaxy.
This is a mischaracterization of the story. He wasn't sent to Earth to save it, he was sent to conquer and destroy. Goku doesn't have superpowers. He is able to use ki which everyone in the story possesses. And Goku didn't have an archenemy until Super. Until then, his villains were usually one and done.
I feel like I shouldn't have to spell this out for you. The fact that he's one of the only survivors of a destroyed alien planet, sent to Earth as a baby (the reason isn't relevant) and became a hero with godlike powers there is essentially the same story as Superman. Ki, chakra, spirit energy, nen, superpowers, it's all the same - they're all superhuman powers, aka superpowers. How can you not see the similarities? And Frieza is his archenemy and still is as of Super. I don't know who you think his archenemy in Super is but no other villain in the entire franchise has been responsible for more conflicts and despite losing multiple times continues to return as an enemy with an undying hate for Goku unlike other previous villains. He may have helped out in Super but he remains evil and therefore isn't a reformed villain.
Also, Goku's role is most definitely Earth's savior. Baba predicted he would save the world and then he did, multiple times. And when he died, he told Gohan he was leaving the protection of the world in his hands. If it wasn't Goku's role to pass on then he wouldn't have said it and he even acknowledges it would be in better hands.
Again, plenty of great protagonists do what they do out of necessity and Gohan would be no exception, but it also applies to Goku. Goku may like fighting but it doesn't drive plots and it doesn't drive the story because most major fights and plot events didn't happen because he liked fighting. They happened because he had to fight. He just happens to also enjoy it. If the story never told you he likes to fight, it wouldn't have made much difference because that's never been what it was about, not in the same way Naruto wants to be Hokage or Saitama wants a worthy opponent. How often do people explain Dragon Ball as a story about a guy who likes to fight? Pretty sure most people don't. I only said it earlier as part of a point to contrast with Gohan. At its core Dragon Ball has always been the adventures of a boy with super strength in a world with martial arts and magic Dragon Balls which became an action story about a guy who saves the world from space baddies. The fights come to him regardless of if he likes it or not because after the gag manga phase ends, he almost always fights to protect the people he cares about rather than because he likes to, in other words out of necessity. Liking to fight is just an excuse Toriyama uses to let villains live and become allies and for jokes and light moments. It's incidental to everything else.
You also really overstate how important I think world ending stakes are because I never said they were the be all-end all. I even said the stakes are made excessively simple moment to moment so it's easy to jump into the story. Wanting to destroy the world is an incredibly simple macro problem, but also, moment to moment the stakes are incredibly simple as well. Most of the time they're fighting to defend their own lives or defend someone else or stop bad guys from doing something bad. Very simple, concrete stuff, rarely just because they like fighting, except for Vegeta who exclusively fights because he enjoys it. That's a character whose every action is clearly driven by the desire to fight and he says so every chance he gets. He delights in it. Take notes because most of Goku's fights aren't written like that.
