How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[Captain Awesome]

The Daizenshu lists 3 million, which is the number I'm arguing against.

What would you consider Goku's base to be, we know it has to be over one million, I don't think three million is such a stretch considering Freeza's transformations.

[Kid Trunks]

It's 90,000 to 3 million for Goku.

And Vegeta, we don't know how strong he was. He wasn't equal to Freeza, regardless of his level of confidence. He managed to block one attack. Afterwords, he was sucking wind and Freeza was no worse for wear. Vegeta was certainly in the hundreds of thousands, but not necessarily 500k+.

I believe he was about 2 million.

And even if Vegeta only went from 36,000 to 300,000, the point is still the same. Big power jumps happen.

The Daizenshu lists 3 million, which is the number I'm arguing against. I can't really debate your personal belief of 2 million. You're welcome to that figure, but I can't really comment on it.

I know, thats only opinion. But my point was just that Goku went into the millions, not the exact figure.

Vegeta, assuming 36,000 to 300,000, gains an 8.3x increase. 13.8 if I play devil's advocate and assume 500,000 for Vegeta.
Then 300,000 to, say, 2 million after his next healing, would be about 6.6x. 4x if we allow the earlier level being 500,000.
Once again I'll say- Goku= 33.3x increase. NOT the same kind of thing. It would be more comparable to look at Goku's jump from his Earth power to Namek in comparison to Vegeta. And THAT was incremental. He would have been stronger before leaving, thanks to senzu. And he repeatedly healed every time he hit his limits. He went up 11.3x from his base when he fought Vegeta, and that was due to multiple recovery boosts as well as gravity training.

I think it is the same thing. Sure, the power increases aren't set to any kind of pattern or mathematical formula, but its obvious that if Vegeta could go from 36,000 to the hundreds of thousands, Goku could do something similar. Increases of 11.3x, 33.3x, its all pretty much the same thing. Massive increases. Powerlevels were risen to match the opponent.

It's bull and I am just as comfortable calling it such as some people are comfortable saying suggestions of Toriyama flubbing rules on Kaio-ken is bull. One way or another, some bullshit went down and rules went out the window. Way too much effort goes into trying to prove which inconsistency is the most believable.

What can I say, I agree.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

When you think about it, there's no way Goku's power isn't above a million. He stated that he wouldn't be able to win against Freeza's third form while he's healing, and all of a sudden when Goku's healed, his power increase that's weaker then Freeza's first form makes him shudder? That makes no sense, and no way is anyone going to refer to his power being different if it's weaker then Piccolo, who is also weaker then Vegeta.

This just can't be argued against:

Goku>Vegeta>Piccolo>Over a million

Not one bit of dialogue or anything hints to anything other then that.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

When you think about it, there's no way Goku's power isn't above a million. He stated that he wouldn't be able to win against Freeza's third form while he's healing, and all of a sudden when Goku's healed, his power increase that's weaker then Freeza's first form makes him shudder? That makes no sense, and no way is anyone going to refer to his power being different if it's weaker then Piccolo, who is also weaker then Vegeta.

This just can't be argued against:

Goku>Vegeta>Piccolo>Over a million

Not one bit of dialogue or anything hints to anything other then that.

Exactly. The only thing ever used to argue against him having a combat power in the millions at that point is the whole "HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN USING AN AURA-LESS KAIO-KEN x 10 THE WHOLE TIME!" deal, which isn't hinted at at all in the manga, the anime, or even the Daizenshuu.

[Captain Awesome]

This just can't be argued against:

Goku>Vegeta>Piccolo>Over a million

Not one bit of dialogue or anything hints to anything other then that.

Exactly. The only thing ever used to argue against him having a combat power in the millions at that point is the whole "HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN USING AN AURA-LESS KAIO-KEN x 10 THE WHOLE TIME!" deal, which isn't hinted at at all in the manga, the anime, or even the Daizenshuu.

Its funny how they ignore Piccolo and Vegeta.

Maybe they're using the phantom Kaio Ken too?

[Onikage725]

Not ignoring anything. Look, it comes down to differences in interpretation of the events. Keep in mind if you're reading the manga or watching the anime, we aren't given any power levels. So it really is just a matter of interpretation. Like I said before, it was ridiculous either way. There's really no reason for the snide comments. I'm fairly certain we can have a debate and keep it civil. No really, I've seen it happen before.

If you want to go into this further, I'll say this on Kaio-ken. Since most of us started on the anime, a major part of this idea comes from there.

This just can't be argued against:

Goku>Vegeta>Piccolo>Over a million

Not one bit of dialogue or anything hints to anything other then that.

Noone has suggested otherwise, factoring Kaio-ken or not. Noone's ever actually said, for example, Ginyu>Goku. We all know Goku was above him. Yet, not factoring Kaio-ken, Ginyu had Goku beat by 30,000.

Exactly. The only thing ever used to argue against him having a combat power in the millions at that point is the whole "HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN USING AN AURA-LESS KAIO-KEN x 10 THE WHOLE TIME!" deal, which isn't hinted at at all in the manga, the anime, or even the Daizenshuu.

Like I said above, many of us started with the anime. The anime, at least, does show just that. They show a sequence of battle, then shortly later on go back and show small bursts of the red aura (implied to be what Kaio saw as opposed to what everyone else could see).

I think it isn't a huge stretch to think Goku could handle Kaio-ken in a different way. He already had. Look at his battle on Earth. It was this last-ditch, body harming thing. He'd shout out Kaio-ken, a flash of red would engulf him, his power would instantly burst up.

Now look at his confrontation with Cpt. Ginyu. Ginyu guessed that he could push 85,000, but when Goku started powering up he started right at 90,000. So clearly Ginyu was off (and obviously couldn't trust his scouter anyway). If Goku started off at 90k, then he wasn't really holding back. Yet Ginyu knew he wasn't giving his all. Furthermore, when Goku used Kaio-ken, he used it like a normal power up (not the normal quick burst). By conventional Kaio-ken rules, Goku should have said the word, shot right up to 180k in the next panel/shot, and blown Ginyu's scouter off.

Now, this whole time, Goku is supremely confident. He has this ability of his (and comfort level with it) factored in. Even Vegeta, after healing, was leagues beyond Goku's normal max. Yet we all know Goku would have put him down if they'd had to fight. Why? Cuz Goku could easily bring his power up to 900k.

So, it was asked before why Goku would be afraid of Freeza before awakening, and confident after? Simple math. I don't necessarily think the old Greg mistranslation is the most accurate estimate, but I'll use it here for simplicity. Let's take Goku at 300,000. His power has more than tripled since before his healing stint. Now take his knowledge of Kaio-ken, and comfort in using it. Before healing, he would need to exceed his maximum comfort zone of x10 to even handle Freeza's second form. Now, bursts of x10 would let him fight at 3 mil with relative ease. And since Freeza doesn't again power up until his 50% charge (be that 6 mil or 60, the ratio for the battle is the same- and I still hold that if he was charging up 57 million points of power, we would have seen more outward effects and character reactions than the near-nothing that actually occurred), why wouldn't Goku think he could carry that fight? Goku happily launched himself at Vegeta when he was 1/3rd his strength, remember?

Speaking of bursts. I think that way too much emphasis is placed on what people sensed from Goku. Since when does Goku take the field at full power? Whatever it is that Goku exudes, it isn’t overwhelming force that makes everyone confident when he first shows up. That simply isn’t Goku’s style. If Goku was bursting to 3 million under his own personal reserves or if he was using minute bursts of Kaio-ken, it really wouldn’t make a difference. When at rest, before the fight, when everyone was taking stock, there is no indication that he wasn’t putting out 5k. Just like when he showed up to embarrass the Ginyu, and he’s showing only 5k, yet everyone knows there’s more going on. Noone can sense what Goku can truly pull, but they know he’s got something up his sleeve. Goku gets immediate respect points on the battlefield based on confidence, charisma, and his past track record.

So, it seems to me that the only real point of contention between the two camps is if Goku mastered Kaio-ken to a degree where the normal onlooker wouldn’t even tell. If you guys brush that off as silly filler, I respect that. I’m not gonna spend any more time trying to change your minds, if you’ll show me the same courtesy. Interpretation of a fictional work, especially when the author pretty much didn't explain the situation, is our prerogative.

[Rocketman]

Its funny how they ignore Piccolo and Vegeta.

Maybe they're using the phantom Kaio Ken too?

Piccolo was a fusion, and Fusions play by different rules.

Vegeta's increase was around 10x. Less than a third of Goku's supposed increase.

[Onikage725]

I'm gonna second that. Goku neither fused nor recovered from a huge gaping hole in his chest. Note that stated rules on the Saiyan recovery gene applies to recovering from life-threatening injury, not getting punched by a really tough opponent (though the two can overlap).
If the best we've got here is "Toriyama said fuck it" or "Goku get's a protagonist bonus of x3," then I still call the right to pick that apart

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Wait! So Vegeta could get about a 10x increase from being piledrived by Recoome, but Goku can't get an increase from being in a bashed up Ginyu, and gettin his regular body back, that was just thrashed by Vegeta?

If anything, Goku had to deal with way more then Vegeta. It's never stated that the severity of Saiyans condition brings a better increase.

[Tyro]

Where is this "10-fold" figure for Vegeta's auto-evolving mechanism originating from? As well as how it became the general conscious that Vegeta was ~36,000 against Reacoom?

According to the manga, Vegeta was no higher than 30,000 against Reacoom, not counting his ki techniques multiplying his power, if they did at all. To quote: "Hey, look, that Vegeta's battle power has increased close to 30,000!" Close to 30,000, even. And in the following panel after this was stated, Vegeta begins his assault on Reacoom, meaning that he had reached his full power. The panel for proof.

And still, 10x? Does that also mean you're assuming Freeza wasn't using his full power (530,000) when attacking Vegeta? Or maybe you think a difference of ~1.76666667x is still small enough to stop said attack, being winded afterwards or not? That's still larger than the Vegeta-Kiwi difference (~1.33333333x). I place Vegeta around 490,000. 530,000 / 490,000 = 1.08163265x. Smaller than the difference between Vegeta and Zarbon (~1.09090909x), so he should be able to keep Freeza at bay, and it explains the huffing and puffing. That's still a ~16.3333333x multiplier, though.

[Onikage725]

Wait! So Vegeta could get about a 10x increase from being piledrived by Recoome, but Goku can't get an increase from being in a bashed up Ginyu, and gettin his regular body back, that was just thrashed by Vegeta?

If anything, Goku had to deal with way more then Vegeta. It's never stated that the severity of Saiyans condition brings a better increase.

Who said "Goku didn't get an increase?" That's just dismissive. You know noone's actually claimed that.

Maybe we just come from different perspectives. You guys seem to think that Vegeta = big increase A and Goku = big increase B, and that the two are similar. To me, someone who works in the medical field and is in a program that requires a lot of college level math and science courses, x10 and x33 are not even close to the same factor. If you were measuring out a patients meds, for example, and figured more than tripling the dosage was no big deal... let's just say you wouldn't have your license for very long. So, to my general way of thinking, the two increases are not even remotely close, and the proposed Goku increase is completely fricken off the wall.

Just out of curiosity, do you watch the dub? I'm not saying that to dub-bash, but it would explain this particular difference in our opinion.

I just watched Vegeta's explanation of Saiyan recovery to Kewie, Zarbon, and Kuririn. During the last two, I had the notion to put the english audio over the japanese subtitles. In the dub, Vegeta talks about getting beaten up, being in combat, and healing from injury. He even tells Kuririn to "punch" him. In the japanese script, each time he says "near death" or "brink of death." He specifically tells Kuririn to render him "half-dead."

If we're going off of two slightly different scripts, that could explain why your focus is on the power of the Saiyan's opponent, and mine is on the severity of the Saiyan's injury.

Where is this "10-fold" figure for Vegeta's auto-evolving mechanism originating from? As well as how it became the general conscious that Vegeta was ~36,000 against Reacoom?

According to the manga, Vegeta was no higher than 30,000 against Reacoom, not counting his ki techniques multiplying his power, if they did at all. To quote: "Hey, look, that Vegeta's battle power has increased close to 30,000!" Close to 30,000, even. And in the following panel after this was stated, Vegeta begins his assault on Reacoom, meaning that he had reached his full power. The panel for proof.

I forgot to check before talking about an 8.3x increase. Yeah, it was 30,000 or so. 10-fold is basically under the assumption that Vegeta falls somewhere in the realm of 300k after healing. I did play devil's advocate and allow for Vegeta to have gone to 500k. It didn't change my opinion.

And still, 10x? Does that also mean you're assuming Freeza wasn't using his full power (530,000) when attacking Vegeta? Or maybe you think a difference of ~1.76666667x is still small enough to stop said attack, being winded afterwards or not? That's still larger than the Vegeta-Kiwi difference (~1.33333333x). I place Vegeta around 490,000. 530,000 / 490,000 = 1.08163265x. Smaller than the difference between Vegeta and Zarbon (~1.09090909x), so he should be able to keep Freeza at bay, and it explains the huffing and puffing. That's still a ~16.3333333x multiplier, though.

I would really need to see more of a fight between them. All he did was grab Freeza's arms and push back. He did worse to Reacoome, who was anywhere from .25-.50 higher than Vegeta (allowing for the avergae estimates of 40-60k). You have to allow for skill and willpower when judging a confrontation. Most of the Freeza gang are brutes with natural inborn power. They also have bully syndrome, and panic when the odds are against them. Is it that much of a surprise, then, that they lost their cool and got their butts kicked when someone stronger showed up? The protagonists, on the other hand, are better trained than any of them (I'm even including Vegeta here), and had more motivation. All throughout the series, they show better results in a losing situation than any of Freeza's goons did, except for Cpt. Ginyu and Freeza himself. And let's look at Freeza. At a 2.5x difference in Goku's favor, Freeza was able to blow him some distance away. At a difference of 1.25x (still in Goku's favor), Freeza was actually able to carry the fight (even looking like he was winning at times).

I just think that the more you have to play with, the more you can do against a stronger opponent. Back in Dragonball, 10-20 points was the difference between victory and defeat.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

If we're going off of two slightly different scripts, that could explain why your focus is on the power of the Saiyan's opponent, and mine is on the severity of the Saiyan's injury.

But the point of a Saiyan's body getting stronger, we can assume, is so that they can try to defeat the enemy again. So perhaps Vegeta, who was beat up by a person with a power in the 40,000-50,000 range, could have automatically increased to the 300,000-500,000 range in order for him to have a chance to kill Reacoom. So then Goku's body, which was pummeled by Vegeta (who is himself now in the 300,000-500,000 range), could have powered up to the 3,000,000 range in order for Goku to be able to beat Vegeta this time (even if Goku had no intention of flying off and killing Vegeta after he healed).

[Kid Trunks]

To me, someone who works in the medical field and is in a program that requires a lot of college level math and science courses, x10 and x33 are not even close to the same factor. If you were measuring out a patients meds, for example, and figured more than tripling the dosage was no big deal... let's just say you wouldn't have your license for very long.

Thats an unfair comparison to say the least. I could do the same. If I eat 10 grains of rice, or 33 grains of rice, it all the same. I'm still gonna be starving!

The difference might be huge in terms of real life medicine, but in the manga Vegeta's huge increase is so big that it shouldn't be hard to fathom that Goku's could be even bigger, by the fact that the power-ups seem to be increasing exponentially(and randomly.

[Onikage725]

But the point of a Saiyan's body getting stronger, we can assume, is so that they can try to defeat the enemy again. So perhaps Vegeta, who was beat up by a person with a power in the 40,000-50,000 range, could have automatically increased to the 300,000-500,000 range in order for him to have a chance to kill Reacoom. So then Goku's body, which was pummeled by Vegeta (who is himself now in the 300,000-500,000 range), could have powered up to the 3,000,000 range in order for Goku to be able to beat Vegeta this time (even if Goku had no intention of flying off and killing Vegeta after he healed).

He wouldn't exactly need to be ten times as strong as Vegeta to beat him. ANd a general 10x increase like in Vegeta's case would but Goku's base just shy of 1 mil.

Thats an unfair comparison to say the least. I could do the same. If I eat 10 grains of rice, or 33 grains of rice, it all the same. I'm still gonna be starving!

The difference might be huge in terms of real life medicine, but in the manga Vegeta's huge increase is so big that it shouldn't be hard to fathom that Goku's could be even bigger, by the fact that the power-ups seem to be increasing exponentially(and randomly.

When we reach the point that I have to argue that the number 33 is higher than the number 10, we've officially hit a new level of ridiculous. That's elementary school mathematics.

Maybe both our examples are flawed because they are based on addition.

The powers we are talking about are multiplication. That's why I used the word factor. And no, they are not even remotely close.

[Kid Trunks]

When we reach the point that I have to argue that the number 33 is higher than the number 10, we've officially hit a new level of ridiculous. That's 1st grade math.

Thats pretty condescending. Thats not what we're arguing. And you know that. Obviously 33 and 10 aren't the same. But they are both big random increaseS. Vegeta randomly increases by about x10 (having only increased by smaller numbers previously), and Goku randomly increases by about x33. They are both simliar in that respect. Obviously I wasn't saying that 10 and 33 are the same. I'm saying the "logic" behind them is the same.

[Xyex]

I'm on the fence either way at this point so bear with me while I work out some things here, largely for myself but hopefully of interest to others. XD

First, let's forget the numbers their powers increased by and look at what the amount of power gained itself was. Taking Vegeta's biggest possible increase (30,000 to 500,000) that gives us an increase of 470,000. Now Goku goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000 which is an increase of 2,910,000. More than 6 times greater while Goku's base is only 3 times that of what Vegeta's was.

If Goku's power had increased by the same percentage as Vegeta's he'd be at 575,000. If it had increased at 3x the percentage because he was 3x the base he'd have been at 1,060,000 or what I figure to be Freeza's (initial) power in his Second Form.

Now, let's go back to the idea of factors again. If it had increased by the same factor as Vegeta's he'd have been at 1,500,000 or half of what the Daizenshuu gives him. And, again, if it had been 3x greater an increase because he was 3x greater then he'd have been at 4,500,000.

So really, what it boils down to is which a person feels is more likely but both of them do, effectively, make some level of sense (when compared soley to just those power-ups, if you factor in any others the entire thing becomes complete mess).

If you look at the power gains not as amounts of energy gained but by the body increasing its energy levels by some factor Goku's large increase makes some (small) sense. At 3x the power it is somewhat logical to assume that his power would increase by a greater amount than Vegeta's had, which it did while also being smaller (by ratio) than Vegeta's (perhaps because he wasn't as close to being dead as Vegeta?) did.

Of course, as I said if you consider other power gains the entire thing becomes a mess. If you assume that Vegeta's power was 500,000 when he struggled with Freeza and then increased to even 2,600,000 after Krillin blasted him that's only a 5.2x or 2,100,000 increase. Smaller than Goku's on both counts and after recieving far greater damage and coming much closer to death than either he or Goku had in their earlier battles.

And in both of their cases the boosts prior to these two increases were signifcantly smaller. Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 (1.3~x/6,000) and then 24,000 to 30,000 (1.25X/6,000 (again)) after recieving far greater injuries than he had against Recoome. With Recoome he could still stand but after Goku he couldn't do more than crawl and Zarbon knocked him unconcious.

Goku, meanwhile, recieved multiple increases while training under heavy gravity and went from 8,000 to 90,000 (11.25x/82,000) meaning his increases on the way to Namek had to be quite small. Maybe as high as 2x on average, depending on how many he had. So there is no real consistant factor here.

Except, perhaps, the length of battle. I don't mean the length of the individual fights but how often they were fighting/getting pounded/etc. Vegeta's large increase post Recoome could easily be seen as his body catching up and coping with the fact he's been awake for several days now and has done nothing almost but fight and get beaten up and has been constantly on alert and on edge. The following increase against Freeza was then smaller because he's had time to adjust again and is, almost, back to normal.

Meanwhile Goku spent six days beating the crap out of himself in intense gravity, who knows what kind of screwy nonsense the Kaioken's been doing to him, and then he lands on Namek and gets his body stolen, misused by its new 'owner', beaten up, and then returned to him. And let's also not over look Kaboom's concept that Goku was 'on the verge of SSJ' as well and that the increase he got post body-swap was partly the beginning emergence of Super Saiya-jin.

...Though really, even without that last factor I think I've thoughly convinced myself now that neither Vegeta's increase post Recoome nor Goku's post Ginyu are completely out of reason. Especially since I figure both were actually smaller than the standardly considered amounts. 33,000 to 400,000 (12.12~x) and then 400,000 to 1,760,000 (4.4x) for Vegeta and 90,000 to 2,000,000 (22.2~x) for Goku. Goku's is still big, but it's less than double Vegeta's biggest while he's more than twice the power prior to it and has more... unusual circumstances involved in its triggering.

[Onikage725]

Thats pretty condescending. Thats not what we're arguing. And you know that. Obviously 33 and 10 aren't the same. But they are both big random increaseS. Vegeta randomly increases by about x10 (having only increased by smaller numbers previously), and Goku randomly increases by about x33. They are both simliar in that respect. Obviously I wasn't saying that 10 and 33 are the same. I'm saying the "logic" behind them is the same.

Yeah sorry about that. You did say above they were "the same thing." Then Chibi Mystic Gohan and Captain Awesome started dishing out the sarcasm. When I tried to explain that maybe I'm just judging factors from a different standpoint (i.e. no one's more "right," it just depends on our perspective) and you came back with descriptions of eating rice, I kind of assumed you were doing the same thing they were earlier. Didn't mean to come off as an ass.

[Captain Awesome]

I just haven't read a convincing case for Goku's base being under a million yet, I know it's fun to come up with in-universe explanations, but I personally think a huge plot device "Zenkai" is easier to swallow than a invisible 10x Kaio Ken for the entire battle with Freeza.

[Onikage725]

Blame Toriyama's slightly different handling of it when Goku "powered up" with Ginyu, combined with the anime showing sequences of a non-visible Kaio-ken aura. The implication was there that Goku could do more with Kaio-ken than just the last ditch burst we saw on Earth. Hell, just the fact that he can use 10x comfortably, when the god who created the move thought x3 or up was taking one's life into their own hands, shows a certain level of mastery.
To each his own theory, though

[Herms]

Hell, just the fact that he can use 10x comfortably, when the god who created the move thought x3 or up was taking one's life into their own hands, shows a certain level of mastery.

Kaio actually tells Goku before the battle with Vegeta to only use the Kaio-ken up to x2 because he thinks that's all Goku can handle "at your current level". He doesn't say anything to indicate that he thinks x3 and over are inherently dangerous, just that Goku's not ready for them yet.