An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

[Casual Matt]

Did this thread seriously just turn into FuniFalconer vs Japoriginal?

Well, when in Rome...

I actually like Faulconer's music. Just not as much of the Japanese score.

And I'm sure we can all agree that Faulconer's stuff was definitely better than any of the crap Menza and Johnson did for GT and the UUEs respectively.

Oh I just wanted to add...I wanted to say something about Piccolo's character in the Dub. For me, the main problem is that sometimes he gets too speechy like Dub Goku and loses that former demon feel to him earlier on. Later on in the series Piccolo does change to a character who will give a speech from time to time. But take the Saiya-jin Arc after Chaozu's sacrifice...

Dub Piccolo: Do you see Gohan? It doesn't matter how strong you are...As long as you have heart.

Compared to...

Original Piccolo: He blew himself up to take out an enemy...He's earned my respect.

Original line seemed much cooler and Piccolo like as opposed to the over the top Dub line.

An even better example is right before that when Nappa is pounding Chaozu around. The dub gives Piccolo the incredicly cheesy line of "Don't look away, Gohan. Honour his bravery." One of the few things they've done that literally makes me cringe. Completely out of character.

Especially when stacked up to the original "This is what fighting is."

[Castor Troy]

Vegeta and Piccolo were really softened up in the dub.

Piccolo basically treats Gohan like shit and Vegeta barely gives a damn about Trunks in the Japanese version.

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta and Piccolo were really softened up in the dub.

Piccolo basically treats Gohan like shit and Vegeta barely gives a damn about Trunks in the Japanese version.

Vegeta's even more obnoxious towards Trunks in the English version.

And if you're talking about when Trunks died, in the manga, vegeta was also legitimately pissed at his death, rather then Cell just messing with him and ruining his pride even further like in the Japanese anime.

[Tsukento]

Big deal if some aspects of the characters personalities are changed. Goku's still a naive dimwit. Vegeta's still pissy as hell. Kuririn's still a sweet character who can occassionally not be as brave as some of the others.

Not so fast!

Goku's not exactly "naive" in the dub. They simply made him outright dumb. There's a difference between growing up in the mountains and being Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel.

Okay, maybe that's pushing it much. But FUNi really did make Goku out to be a dumb adult when it came to dubbing the series. Why? Because before dubbing the rest of Dragon Ball, they had no idea WHY Goku was so naive and wrote it off as him not having enough brain cells in his head.

Poor Kuririn's also been the subject of getting the short end of the stick in many ways. Prior to the Boo saga, the dub always made Kuririn out to seem like he couldn't grow his hair. Not only that, but his wish to get married would be ignored in the dub. Remember the famous "It's times like these I wish I had been a shoe salesman?" line uttered in the Freeza saga dub?

Meanwhile, Vegeta and Piccolo are only seen as the "pissy one" and the "lone wolf who comes out to help a little boy." Not only that, but for whatever reason, they LOVE to deliver one liner puns and jokes for no reason at all.

Do we know why Vegeta's the way he is? According to the dub, Vegeta's daddy was taken away and Freeza made him do the bad things he did or else he'd kill his daddy. A *complete* difference in character development from the original. They made Vegeta seem like he didn't take joy or pride in what he did and that the Saiyan race is made of nothing but softies.

Prior to the Freeza saga, the dub made Piccolo into a typical, run of the mill villain who, for the time being, had to join up with the heroes to fight off bigger villains. No joy in being able to take out two birds with one stone when he killed Goku and Raditz, and not seeing the irony in Piccolo Daimao actually saving a kid.

Do you see how vastly different the characters can be seen now?

[jjgp1112]

Big deal if some aspects of the characters personalities are changed. Goku's still a naive dimwit. Vegeta's still pissy as hell. Kuririn's still a sweet character who can occassionally not be as brave as some of the others.

Not so fast!

Goku's not exactly "naive" in the dub. They simply made him outright dumb. There's a difference between growing up in the mountains and being Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel.

Okay, maybe that's pushing it much. But FUNi really did make Goku out to be a dumb adult when it came to dubbing the series. Why? Because before dubbing the rest of Dragon Ball, they had no idea WHY Goku was so naive and wrote it off as him not having enough brain cells in his head.

Poor Kuririn's also been the subject of getting the short end of the stick in many ways. Prior to the Boo saga, the dub always made Kuririn out to seem like he couldn't grow his hair. Not only that, but his wish to get married would be ignored in the dub. Remember the famous "It's times like these I wish I had been a shoe salesman?" line uttered in the Freeza saga dub?

Meanwhile, Vegeta and Piccolo are only seen as the "pissy one" and the "lone wolf who comes out to help a little boy." Not only that, but for whatever reason, they LOVE to deliver one liner puns and jokes for no reason at all.

Do we know why Vegeta's the way he is? According to the dub, Vegeta's daddy was taken away and Freeza made him do the bad things he did or else he'd kill his daddy. A *complete* difference in character development from the original. They made Vegeta seem like he didn't take joy or pride in what he did and that the Saiyan race is made of nothing but softies.

Prior to the Freeza saga, the dub made Piccolo into a typical, run of the mill villain who, for the time being, had to join up with the heroes to fight off bigger villains. No joy in being able to take out two birds with one stone when he killed Goku and Raditz, and not seeing the irony in Piccolo Daimao actually saving a kid.

Do you see how vastly different the characters can be seen now?

Are you talking about the Saban dub or the UUE? Because in the UUE, Piccolo says, "How noble of you...AND HOW CONVENIENT FOR ME!"

[Vekurotto]

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't. The two don't really switch over very well. Imagine calling Thor the "guardian of thunder". Or if Knuckles were called the "god of the Master Emerald?" It doesn't really work, does it?

I would say a good chunk of that is that Kami doesn't match up to the Western notion of a god.

That's how I always felt. He comes off more as just some old guardian here in the States and Canada, not a God.

But he supposed too though. Are you guys forgetting that Kami isn't just some Dragon Ball specific name that Akira Toriyama created and that it means "God" in Japanese and in English? You realize that "The Lookout" is called the Heavenly Realm in the original too don't you?

And look Kuzait explained it somewhere about how Kami really is supposed to be God and when I find it I'll quote it and put it up there but Kami and Dende are God.

One line I also remember was that Mr. Satan asked who Dende was in the Buu arc and they said "God". And he pretty much laughed his ass off. Then after awhile he decided to try and repent to him after the battle with Super Boo got worse.

I don't think you'd do that if there they were just some Guardian of the Earth.

[jjgp1112]

I would say a good chunk of that is that Kami doesn't match up to the Western notion of a god.

That's how I always felt. He comes off more as just some old guardian here in the States and Canada, not a God.

But he supposed too though. Are you guys forgetting that Kami isn't just some Dragon Ball specific name that Akira Toriyama created and that it means "God" in Japanese and in English? You realize that "The Lookout" is called the Heavenly Realm in the original too don't you?

And look Kuzait explained it somewhere about how Kami really is supposed to be God and when I find it I'll quote it and put it up there but Kami and Dende are God.

One line I also remember was that Mr. Satan asked who Dende was in the Buu arc and they said "God". And he pretty much laughed his ass off. Then after awhile he decided to try and repent to him after the battle with Super Boo got worse.

I don't think you'd do that if there they were just some Guardian of the Earth.

Yes, I know what Kami means in Japanese. But he doesn't come off as a God in the Western world.

[Vekurotto]

Yes, I know what Kami means in Japanese. But he doesn't come off as a God in the Western world.

Yes it does though. Like I said I think the proof that the Kami stay in the Heavenly Realm and that people repent to him and don't believe in him at times throughout the series is pretty much all the evidence that you need to see that.

But hey since you watch only the dub you wouldn't know that since Kami doesn't mean God at all there.

[jjgp1112]

Yes, I know what Kami means in Japanese. But he doesn't come off as a God in the Western world.

Yes it does though. Like I said I think the proof that the Kami stay in the Heavenly Realm and that people repent to him and don't believe in him at times throughout the series is pretty much all the evidence that you need to see that.

But hey since you watch only the dub you wouldn't know that since Kami doesn't mean God at all there.

Ah...so you're questioning my intelligence because I'm a Dub fan

[Vekurotto]

Ah...so you're questioning my intelligence because I'm a Dub fan

No. You watch the dub exclusively right? I'm saying that in the dub, there just isn't any acknowledgment of the fact that Kami=God like how it does through insinuations, through the way the locations are, and how Kami is viewed in the original as opposed to the dub.

[jjgp1112]

Ah...so you're questioning my intelligence because I'm a Dub fan

No. You watch the dub exclusively right? I'm saying that in the dub, there just isn't any acknowledgment of the fact that Kami=God like how it does through insinuations, through the way the locations are, and how Kami is viewed in the original as opposed to the dub.

And yet I do know it via Shonen Jump.

[Vekurotto]

Ah...so you're questioning my intelligence because I'm a Dub fan

No. You watch the dub exclusively right? I'm saying that in the dub, there just isn't any acknowledgment of the fact that Kami=God like how it does through insinuations, through the way the locations are, and how Kami is viewed in the original as opposed to the dub.

And yet I do know it via Shonen Jump.

Um what? jjgp1112 you just said that you thought that Kami in Dragon Ball wasn't God. And I'm not talking about the translation of Kami-God I'm talking about "The God of Heaven" a page back. It's the same thing but in a mocking Christianity type of way. As in God isn't as big of a deal as religion makes him out to be, kind of way.

[Rocketman]

Like Herms said, though...

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't.

I say the term implies three major things:

1. Immortal.
2. Far more powerful than any mortal.
3. Rules or once ruled over all or part of the world.

'Kami' fits only one of those, which puts him squarely in 'Guardian of Earth' to me. Or 'Emperor' if he took a more active role in his dominion over the Earth.

[Jerseymilk]

Ah...so you're questioning my intelligence because I'm a Dub fan

No. You watch the dub exclusively right? I'm saying that in the dub, there just isn't any acknowledgment of the fact that Kami=God like how it does through insinuations, through the way the locations are, and how Kami is viewed in the original as opposed to the dub.

And yet I do know it via Shonen Jump.

Uh, you just helped prove Vekurotto's point there. You know it because of the manga, *not* by learning it from the dub of the anime.

[jjgp1112]

No. You watch the dub exclusively right? I'm saying that in the dub, there just isn't any acknowledgment of the fact that Kami=God like how it does through insinuations, through the way the locations are, and how Kami is viewed in the original as opposed to the dub.

And yet I do know it via Shonen Jump.

Um what? jjgp1112 you just said that you thought that Kami in Dragon Ball wasn't God. And I'm not talking about the translation of Kami-God I'm talking about "The God of Heaven" a page back. It's the same thing but in a mocking Christianity type of way. As in God isn't as big of a deal as religion makes him out to be, kind of way.

I said he doesn't come off as one to the Western world.

Like Herms said, though...

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't.

I say the term implies three major things:

1. Immortal.
2. Far more powerful than any mortal.
3. Rules or once ruled over all or part of the world.

'Kami' fits only one of those, which puts him squarely in 'Guardian of Earth' to me. Or 'Emperor' if he took a more active role in his dominion over the Earth.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

And Jerseymilk, I think it was pretty obvious that he was a higher power, and could be implied without him being called God. Hell, in the Japanese subtitles, he's always called Kami too.

[Tsukento]

Except we're all forgetting that in the case of Piccolo Daimao's good half, it's merely a TITLE that is bestowed upon the person. In terms of Earth's God, it doesn't imply immortality or being stronger than any mortal. That's just how WE view what God is.

[Vekurotto]

Except we're all forgetting that in the case of Piccolo Daimao's good half, it's merely a TITLE that is bestowed upon the person. In terms of Earth's God, it doesn't imply immortality or being stronger than any mortal. That's just how WE view what God is.

Yes that's exactly what I was going to say.

God in the Dragon Ball world mocks everything that we base what Gods are supposed to be. In human culture, and in the human culture for Dragon Ball, God is some guy that we're supposed to trust our life with and believe is some superhuman amazing guy and then it turns out that the God that we believe in is just some man that has the same type of life that we live.

To the humans though God is still what we stereotype him as.

[Tsukento]

In fact, the closest you can say Kami is to being how we view a god is how he's made it possible for miracles to happen, albeit with the Dragon Balls.

[Herms]

Except we're all forgetting that in the case of Piccolo Daimao's good half, it's merely a TITLE that is bestowed upon the person. In terms of Earth's God, it doesn't imply immortality or being stronger than any mortal. That's just how WE view what God is.

Well, it's a title bestowed only on those deemed worthy. Kami had to purge all the evil from himself before he could get the title. And it does come with certain powers, like the ability to see everything that goes on in the world. And you do have to be pretty strong to get the title. Kami was by far the most powerful character when he first appeared.

I know the way DragonBall treats godhood differently than what most people are used to, but that's part of the point. It's unique and unexpected to have God turn out to be a wrinkly green slug man. Having Kami just be some wrinkly green slug man ruins that.

DragonBall's depiction of gods is actually pretty similiar to how gods are depicted in Chinese mythology (including Journey to the West). There being a god of this or that is treated like a title. Gods can be promoted or demoted to better positions, and mortals are capable of rising to the rank of god.

In Greek mythology as well, what position a god has was assigned like a job. Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades drew lots to see who would get which domain, and Apollo gave one of his titles away to Hermes.

[Adamant]

Like Herms said, though...

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't.

I say the term implies three major things:

1. Immortal.
2. Far more powerful than any mortal.
3. Rules or once ruled over all or part of the world.

'Kami' fits only one of those, which puts him squarely in 'Guardian of Earth' to me. Or 'Emperor' if he took a more active role in his dominion over the Earth.

So Marvel Thor shouldn't be called a "god" in the English-language versions of their comics either?

Hell, in the Japanese subtitles, he's always called Kami too.

Actually, I've been wondering about that - why do seemingly all English-language sources, no matter how close to the original they are, use the term "Kami" rather than "God"? Most, if not all, the European translations of the series simply call him God, but the only time I've seen it in English is the subtitles to Detekoi Tobikiri Zenkai Power in the Pioneer movie DVDs releases.