Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[mAcChaos]

They didn't see aliens as "people," is why.

[SaiyaMel]

Bardock appeared to honor his fallen comrades by putting on a piece of cloth that he had soaked with their blood, before going onto fighting them himself?

That's a very good point (not to mention a very badass moment). I would submit though that a unit of soldiers who’ve fought numerous battles alongside one another developing a sense of friendship and attachment doesn’t inherently equate to their whole race subscribing to some sort of honor code as part of their culture, especially given the less than shining examples set forth on numerous occasions by several other Saiya-jin characters, most notably their own Prince no less (and King as well in anime filler).

But yeah, that is one (very good) example of the Saiya-jin not being QUITE complete and total barbaric asshats… but still though, camaraderie or not, that doesn’t also negate the fact that Bardock and his team was seen murdering and slaughtering more than their fair share of innocent life with a smile on their faces, a song in their hearts, and nary so much as a single, solitary inkling of genuine regret. And it also doesn’t even come close to outweighing the numerous other examples of their race’s distinct LACK of honor that I and a few others have duly noted throughout this thread.

Good calls. Though like I said in this topic, I suppose it wouldn't out of the question to assume that in the past they went by some warrior/honor code and were more cultured/disciplined... with that said, when Vegeta was very young - there might have been a turn in Saiyan history during which their culture began to change - particularly the younger generation of Saiyans deviating from traditional ways and becoming more corrupted (perhaps being under Freeza's influence had something to do with it). Raditz might have been only a bit older than Kakkarot,, close to or around the same age as Vegeta...

While the young generations could have been aware of their traditional cultural roots - they simply didn't give a shit. This happens in some real life societies - the Islamic religion is supposed to promote peace and harmony, yet so many so-called "Muslims" are doing the opposite of what their religion teaches in that respect, these days - giving their religion such a bad name (no intention to stirr things up - I'm just using that as an example). One could go by that idea for their Saiyan fanfic.

Also like I said - throughout almost all of his childhood,, Vegeta was raised by Freeza, and therefore there would have missed out on a lot of stuff on what it means to be a Saiyan...

[Captain Awesome]

I suppose it wouldn't out of the question to assume that in the past they went by some warrior/honor code and were more cultured/disciplined... with that said, when Vegeta was very young - there might have been a turn in Saiyan history during which their culture began to change - particularly the younger generation of Saiyans deviating from traditional ways and becoming more corrupted (perhaps being under Freeza's influence had something to do with it)

Also like I said - throughout almost all of his childhood,, Vegeta was raised by Freeza, and therefore there would have missed out on a lot of stuff on what it means to be a Saiyan...

I'm going to have to agree with Kunzait here, there's overwhelming evidence that the Saiya-jin have a distinct lack of any kind of honor system whatsoever, and while speculating about a cultural shift due to the influences of Freeza's empire is a fun thought, there is absolutely no evidence of this, so we have to continue to assume that Saiya-jins by and large are a race intergalactic barbarians who's idea of fun is wiping out the inhabitants of entire planets.

You really can't prescribe all these qualities to the Saiya-jin when there simply isn't even the slightest hint that they posess any of them.

[SaiyaMel]

I suppose it wouldn't out of the question to assume that in the past they went by some warrior/honor code and were more cultured/disciplined... with that said, when Vegeta was very young - there might have been a turn in Saiyan history during which their culture began to change - particularly the younger generation of Saiyans deviating from traditional ways and becoming more corrupted (perhaps being under Freeza's influence had something to do with it)

Also like I said - throughout almost all of his childhood,, Vegeta was raised by Freeza, and therefore there would have missed out on a lot of stuff on what it means to be a Saiyan...

I'm going to have to agree with Kunzait here, there's overwhelming evidence that the Saiya-jin have a distinct lack of any kind of honor system whatsoever, and while speculating about a cultural shift due to the influences of Freeza's empire is a fun thought, there is absolutely no evidence of this, so we have to continue to assume that Saiya-jins by and large are a race intergalactic barbarians who's idea of fun is wiping out the inhabitants of entire planets.

You really can't prescribe all these qualities to the Saiya-jin when there simply isn't even the slightest hint that they posess any of them.

Well, pretty much all of that evidence of a distinct lack of an honor system that I see, comes from Vegeta and Raditz (whether or not that's the case with Nappa I question, that as we don't see enough of him). Only two examples of the race... and given the times they grew up in - they're probably not the greatest examples to use.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I suppose it wouldn't out of the question to assume that in the past they went by some warrior/honor code and were more cultured/disciplined... with that said, when Vegeta was very young - there might have been a turn in Saiyan history during which their culture began to change - particularly the younger generation of Saiyans deviating from traditional ways and becoming more corrupted (perhaps being under Freeza's influence had something to do with it)

Also like I said - throughout almost all of his childhood,, Vegeta was raised by Freeza, and therefore there would have missed out on a lot of stuff on what it means to be a Saiyan...

I'm going to have to agree with Kunzait here, there's overwhelming evidence that the Saiya-jin have a distinct lack of any kind of honor system whatsoever, and while speculating about a cultural shift due to the influences of Freeza's empire is a fun thought, there is absolutely no evidence of this, so we have to continue to assume that Saiya-jins by and large are a race intergalactic barbarians who's idea of fun is wiping out the inhabitants of entire planets.

You really can't prescribe all these qualities to the Saiya-jin when there simply isn't even the slightest hint that they posess any of them.

Well, pretty much all of that evidence of a distinct lack of an honor system that I see, comes from Vegeta and Raditz (Nappa I question that as we don't see enough of him). Only two examples of the race... and given the times they grew up in - they're probably not the greatest examples to use.

I think we see plenty of Nappa, and in fact I think he appears in more episodes than Raditz. Also, he fights more, as in, he fights against all of the humans as well as Piccolo, Goku, and Gohan. Which Raditz just doesn't do.

You can also include Tullece, if we're talking about filler as well.

Also, we are led to believe that the Saiyans very willingly took up the job as genocidal lackeys for Frieza. As such, we can at LEAST infer that the Saiyan race had, before any "corruption" by Frieza, were completely fine with the idea of wiping out BILLIONS(at least) of innocent sentients that are several magnitudes weaker than themselves.

[Captain Awesome]

Well, pretty much all of that evidence of a distinct lack of an honor system that I see, comes from Vegeta and Raditz (whether or not that's the case with Nappa I question, that as we don't see enough of him). Only two examples of the race... and given the times they grew up in - they're probably not the greatest examples to use.

But if you're going to ignore the way the full blooded Saiya-jin that actually lived on planet Vegeta acted, why do you like the Saiya-jin at all?, it seems like you're ignoring what we actually know about them and just making up qualities you like.

[SaiyaMel]

I think we see plenty of Nappa, and in fact I think he appears in more episodes than Raditz. Also, he fights more, as in, he fights against all of the humans as well as Piccolo, Goku, and Gohan. Which Raditz just doesn't do.

True, but what I meant by my word is that didn't get to really observe that side of Nappa like we have with Raditz (his act of lying to Kakkarot about leaving Earth, I thought was pretty pathetic), and Vegeta (many examples already mentioned).

You can also include Tullece, if we're talking about filler as well.

Forgot about him (and Paragas),, but there's no telling of what environments that shaped them.

Also, we are led to believe that the Saiyans very willingly took up the job as genocidal lackeys for Freeza. As such, we can at LEAST infer that the Saiyan race had, before any "corruption" by Freeza, were completely fine with the idea of wiping out BILLIONS(at least) of innocent sentients that are several magnitudes weaker than themselves.

I never denied or questioned the fact that Saiyans have no qualms about committing mass genocides, and enjoy it (and probably always have) - I'm talking about the possibility of a Saiyan code of honor here.

[SaiyaMel]

Well, pretty much all of that evidence of a distinct lack of an honor system that I see, comes from Vegeta and Raditz (whether or not that's the case with Nappa I question, that as we don't see enough of him). Only two examples of the race... and given the times they grew up in - they're probably not the greatest examples to use.

But if you're going to ignore the way the full blooded Saiya-jin that actually lived on planet Vegeta acted, why do you like the Saiya-jin at all?, it seems like you're ignoring what we actually know about them and just making up qualities you like.

Please see my above post to Super Ghost Kamikaze - I didn't notice yours until I finished submitting it...

Because for one, I'm biased... and secondly I think there is still some room to speculate on the subject.

[Captain Awesome]

Well, pretty much all of that evidence of a distinct lack of an honor system that I see, comes from Vegeta and Raditz (whether or not that's the case with Nappa I question, that as we don't see enough of him). Only two examples of the race... and given the times they grew up in - they're probably not the greatest examples to use.

But if you're going to ignore the way the full blooded Saiya-jin that actually lived on planet Vegeta acted, why do you like the Saiya-jin at all?, it seems like you're ignoring what we actually know about them and just making up qualities you like.

Because for one, I'm biased... and secondly I think there is still some room to speculate on the subject.

I agree there's plenty of room for speculation, but not at the expense of the little knowledge that we do have, if you're going to throw out all of that information, you might as well just invent your own alien race.

Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz weren't assholes because Freeza's influence perverted a race of noble honor bound warriors, they were assholes because they were Saiya-jin.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Herms]

It’s made blatantly apparent… and I know I’m also including filler in my assessment, before Rocketman verbally beans me upside the head, but the filler does help flesh out the Saiya-jin a lot more… that the Saiya-jin were ALWAYS brutish, essentially nothing more than nomadic primitives and cavemen before they met Freeza’s company, which helped to advance them technologically.

Well, the history of the Saiyans and Tsufuru that we see in the anime was all concieved of by Toriyama. He even drew sketches of the caveman-like early Saiyans and their primitive housing. So I don't see a problem in using that in your assessment.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The problem I see here is that the question is not being addressed properly. During the course of the conversation, someone I guess eventually inquired whether the Saiyans had a honor code or warrior code. Some answered most certainly not, and along with it value judgments were passed on the Saiyans behavior. That is the problem; you cannot use your own personal code of ethics when answering a simple question as that. Honor is defined as:

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.
2. a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.
3. high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.
5. high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.
6. the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc.: to have the honor of serving on a prize jury; I have the honor of introducing this evening's speaker.

Within a certain society, its members define the standards for honor. To a Saiyan barbarism is viewed as being honorable. Hypothetically speaking if the Saiyans was a real nation on this planet, the United States or those from a Judeo-Christian background would say that cruel or brutal acts are not honorable which many here have made clear that the Saiyans did not have any honor. That is not answering the question that is passing judgment. While I would agree with most here that, the Saiyans behavior lacked honor because I most likely share a similar background as many of the members of this forum. However, in answering the question I would say yes they did have one that they established. Now let us look at the term code. A code is:

4. a systematically arranged collection or compendium of laws, rules, or regulations.
5. any authoritative, general, systematic, and written statement of the legal rules and principles applicable in a given legal order to one or more broad areas of life.

Looking back at the above established principles one could say that the Saiyans also possessed a code even though personally we may not agree with the various aspects of it. Was it written down anywhere, not that we know but their actions throughout the narrative whether anime or manga paralleled each other.

[Rocketman]

Honor is defined as:

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

Uh, I thought you were arguing against us.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Profesor, your "anything can be honor" is like this constant nagging that DEMANDS that Saiyans have a code of honor.

Seriously, this simply CANNOT be argued logically, no matter how much you argue "perspective".

The Saiyans are portrayed as being willing to do anything, and that means absolutely ANYTHING AT ALL, to win.

No matter how you twist that, "Anything Goes" is not a "Code" of ANY sort, let alone an "honorable" one.

They are shown to not care about their fellow race. The King gave away his own son, and just got pissed that he could be bullied. Vegeta didn't care about his family or friends, just being bullied. Vegeta killed Nappa because the guy wasn't useful anymore. Vegeta didn't want to bring Raditz back because he wasn't useful anymore. Nappa agreed with that last sentiment.

This isn't a "Code", this is just "If someone is not useful, screw 'em". That's just COLD LOGIC, which by no means can be construed as a code of any sort.

COLD LOGIC is not a code. It's just trying to get ahead.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Honor is defined as:

honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.

Uh, I thought you were arguing against us.

That is determined how a particular group defines those things. Many argue that we live in a subjective society presently but the world have always went their own way especially regarding ethics.

Profesor, your "anything can be honor" is like this constant nagging that DEMANDS that Saiyans have a code of honor.

Seriously, this simply CANNOT be argued logically, no matter how much you argue "perspective".

The Saiyans are portrayed as being willing to do anything, and that means absolutely ANYTHING AT ALL, to win.

No matter how you twist that, "Anything Goes" is not a "Code" of ANY sort, let alone an "honorable" one.

They are shown to not care about their fellow race. The King gave away his own son, and just got pissed that he could be bullied. Vegeta didn't care about his family or friends, just being bullied. Vegeta killed Nappa because the guy wasn't useful anymore. Vegeta didn't want to bring Raditz back because he wasn't useful anymore. Nappa agreed with that last sentiment.

This isn't a "Code", this is just "If someone is not useful, screw 'em". That's just COLD LOGIC, which by no means can be construed as a code of any sort.

COLD LOGIC is not a code. It's just trying to get ahead.

Have you ever heard of euthanasia? While we both know that Vegeta killed Nappa because he found him useless but in some sense the same can be applied towards what goes on when one person euthanizes another.

There are present-day countries that view mercy killing as legal. There is Switzerland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and even the U.S. state of Oregon calls it their Death with Dignity Act among others throughout the world. Many ancient cultures practiced it along with other actions that many on this forum would disagree with and call inhuman. Now would you call all these people barbarians going off cold logic?

[mAcChaos]

The difference in euthanasia is that Nappa didn't seem very happy to be getting it, unlike the cases of the former.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The difference in euthanasia is that Nappa didn't seem very happy to be getting it, unlike the cases of the former.

Yeah but when someone is in a comma or a vegetative state an individual will not know how the comatose person would feel about the decision unless they left legal documentation stating that if they were put into that situation they would prefer death. Moreover, when you really look at the matter the person would not be useful to no one, just like Nappa.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

The difference in euthanasia is that Nappa didn't seem very happy to be getting it, unlike the cases of the former.

Yeah but when someone is in a comma or a vegetative state an individual will not know how the comatose person would feel about the decision unless they left legal documentation stating that if they were put into that situation they would prefer death. Moreover, when you really look at the matter the person would not be useful to no one, just like Nappa.

But then that's a completely separate principle from "Death with Dignity".

Nappa faced death with a "WHAT THE FUCK?!". Hardly anything APPROACHING what you're talking about.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The difference in euthanasia is that Nappa didn't seem very happy to be getting it, unlike the cases of the former.

Yeah but when someone is in a comma or a vegetative state an individual will not know how the comatose person would feel about the decision unless they left legal documentation stating that if they were put into that situation they would prefer death. Moreover, when you really look at the matter the person would not be useful to no one, just like Nappa.

But then that's a completely separate principle from "Death with Dignity".

Nappa faced death with a "WHAT THE FUCK?!". Hardly anything APPROACHING what you're talking about.

The principle is there, when one becomes useless to society etc., or in this case a particular cause, they are put to death. Regardless the point is that many particularly here is the US see euthanasia as the same as murder and they would use the same language that you and others apply to the Saiyans. To you their actions are wrong but to them it is normal. That is their code whether written or not, it coincides with the definition of code.