Fat Boo and Super Boo Differences!

[Kamiccolo9]

If Gotenks can really go SS2, why did he never use it ? He relies only on his SS3.
Moreover, I don't think that Gotenks could do such a performance as a SS1 against Evil Boo who is on the same level as SS3 Gotenks. I know it's a gag fight but still.

Well, it's not like Buu was really taking him seriously. And he only turned SSJ3 to escape the Room of Space and Time. Why would he power back down to fight Buu when he had already powered up?

[Draken]

If Gotenks can really go SS2, why did he never use it ? He relies only on his SS3.
Moreover, I don't think that Gotenks could do such a performance as a SS1 against Evil Boo who is on the same level as SS3 Gotenks. I know it's a gag fight but still.

"Shit, my SSJ3 form -which is 4x more powerful than my SSJ2- can barely put me on par/above Super Buu. I think it's time to power down to fight this guy!"

Yea, I think we see why he doesn't rely on SSJ2.

[Hitiro]

You know, in the manga, there is no indication about SSJ multipliers. And we don't really know if they're the same for each character. Besides, in your theory, Gotenks SS3 is stronger than Goku SS3 by the same gap there is between SS1 and SS2. You believe it's x2, based on the super guides. But in the manga, all I see is that the gap between Gohan SS1 and Gohan SS2 (Cell arc) is huge. Thus, there would be the same gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo, while the only thing stated is "everything about him is greater than before". Why not place the emphasis on his strength ?

I'm not sure I'm following what you're trying to suggest. Gohan's gap between SSJ and SSJ2 is 2x but you're forgetting to take into account the rage boost Gohan got which increased his power further. When Gohan was fighting Cell in the Cell Games basically became 2x stronger plus whatever boost his rage gave him. He could have been 4x or 5x stronger for all we know due to the rage boost. That still doesn't change the fact that SSJ2 is 2x stronger than SSJ.

The second problem is that South Kaioshin would be stronger than Boo, while the Kaioshins are supposed to be below SS1 Gohan's level. Such an exception should be mentioned IMO, but this is not the case.
At last but not least, remember that Gotenks never achieved SS2. Maybe the fusion somehow replaced it with SS3 so that the SS3 multipliers would fall on the SS2 level. It's weird but Gotenks went directly from the regular Super Saiyan to SS3, as if SS2 didn't exist in Fusion.

Huh? When is it ever stated that the Kaioshins are supposed to be below SSJ1 Gohan's level? Perhaps the Eastern Kaioshin, maybe. But according to that Kaioshin all of the Kaioshin could defeat Freeza in a single blow which impresses Goku. Gohan also says he'd have a hard time dealing with Kibito without going SSJ and Kibito is marginally weaker than the Kaioshin. The Eastern Kaioshin also points out he was the weakest out of them all so he isn't a good indicator of how strong the rest are either.

Pure Boo absorbed the strongest Kaioshin because he felt threatened or was backed into a corner where he desperately brought about the absorption.

Yeah, he's the strongest kaioshin. But Kibitoshin didn't say "the strongest of the universe" or "stronger than Boo". Thus, this is only your own interpretation. And I would say this is an unlikely interpretation.
I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong though, but my opinion also is defendable.

Did I say the South Kaioshin was stronger than Boo in my interpretation? All I said was Boo felt threatened and was backed into a corner where he desperately brought about the absorption. You seem to be thinking that, that warrants the South Kaioshin as being stronger than Pure Boo. For all we know he could be on par with Pure Boo like Goku or he could be a little weaker and his techniques allowed him to pressure Pure Boo like Gotenks techniques did with Evil Boo. In that case neither saying he's "the strongest in the universe" or "stronger than Boo" would apply. The South Kaioshin would just need to be "strong" enough to make Pure Boo desperate. Which would put him close to SSJ3 Goku's level. Even so, if we consider South Kaioshin may be stronger than Boo that doesn't mean to imply the Kaioshin needs to say that he's stronger than Boo or that he's the strongest in the universe.

The Kaioshin never once implies Boo is "the strongest in the universe" but he clearly thinks nobody can match his strength when he is first introduced. In fact he regularly points out that if he is released then nobody would be able to stop him. Yet he never once states that Boo is "the strongest in the universe" before he finds out how powerful the Saiyan's are. I also seem to recall that the Kaioshin points out that the Saiyan's wouldn't be able to stop Boo because Boo defeated 4 Kaioshin, each powerful enough to kill Freeza in one blow. He makes it sound as if 4 Kaioshin couldn't beat Boo then nobody else could. At least that's what I get from how he talks.

[Kaboom]

Huh? When is it ever stated that the Kaioshins are supposed to be below SSJ1 Gohan's level?

It's not stated. That comes from the assumption that South Kaioshin tried and failed to pull out the Z Sword, which Gohan succeeded in doing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Huh? When is it ever stated that the Kaioshins are supposed to be below SSJ1 Gohan's level?

It's not stated. That comes from the assumption that South Kaioshin tried and failed to pull out the Z Sword, which Gohan succeeded in doing.

How is this explained anyway? Are we just to assume that none of the "current" Kaioshin ever tried to pull out the Z-Sword and that the previous generations were East Kaioshin level or lower?

[RandomGuy96]

Note that there is no statement or even heavy implication that said South Kaioshin tried, South Kaioshin wasn't thought up when that scene was written, what you can lift =/= power level, and it's pretty commonly thought that Gohan needed to pull the sword because he was the chosen one or something.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Note that there is no statement or even heavy implication that said South Kaioshin tried, South Kaioshin wasn't thought up when that scene was written, what you can lift =/= power level, and it's pretty commonly thought that Gohan needed to pull the sword because he was the chosen one or something.

Chosen one and Dragon Ball don't mix. Actually looking into the strength checkers Kaioshin says: "No one has been able to remove the Z-Sword, as far as I know." He doesn't know if any of his fellow Kaioshin have even tried and even then, they could just put it back when they're done using it .

[Kaboom]

//South Kaioshin hears that Majin Boo is on the loose and has already taken out West and North Kaioshin//

"Aw damn, this could be trouble."

//Effortlessly pulls out the Z-Sword//

"Hmmm... don't feel any stronger. Guess that's a dead end."

//Puts it back, goes to fight Boo without it.//

[Kamiccolo9]

//South Kaioshin hears that Majin Boo is on the loose and has already taken out West and North Kaioshin//

"Aw damn, this could be trouble."

//Effortlessly pulls out the Z-Sword//

"Hmmm... don't feel any stronger. Guess that's a dead end."

//Puts it back, goes to fight Boo without it.//

Pure genius. This is now in my official canon. Thank man (woman? person?)!

[Bussani]

If Gotenks can really go SS2, why did he never use it ? He relies only on his SS3.

He may have reached Super Saiyan 3 just by exerting himself, completely skipping by Super Saiyan 2 and never even noticing it was a thing. I mean, you even implied it yourself--how is Super Saiyan 2 distinguishable from being mid-transformation between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3? It may never have occurred to him to stay in that middle area if he got to the end result really easily.

[Kaboom]

Thanks man (woman? person?)!

Man. Except for in that dream I had that one time.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Thanks man (woman? person?)!

Man. Except for in that dream I had that one time.

[Darkprince410]

But he didn't know that Vegeta underestimated Pure Buu until well into Goku's fight with him, and even then it's only because Vegeta outright told him. There's no reason for Goku to put on an act for Vegeta, none whatsoever.

He knows because Vegeta focused only on Boo's size. And he conceals his lie for the same reason he lets Vegeta believe that he (Vegeta) also can fight Boo, I guess.
Then comes the line "I can say this now, but the truth is..." so maybe Goku felt that he couldn't say earlier that he was hiding his true power, I don't know.
But, you know, I can't imagine that Pure Boo is weaker when I don't see any direct statement of that, while there are always direct power statements in the manga. Too fishy. Even when Goku replies to Kaioshin that he wants to fight Pure Boo without merging with Vegeta, he doesn't say it's because Boo is weaker but because he has no absorbees left. It was another opportunity to state that Boo is weaker, but he still doesn't say it.

I disagree, because it doesn't say that it lowered his strength to below that of Pure Buu. All the line says is that Buu, after absorbing the Dai Kaioushin, developed a heart and, in turn, his power dropped as a result. It doesn't say how much that it dropped or anything along those lines though, nor do you seem to take into account that it wasn't Pure Buu right to Fat Buu, but Pure Buu to the significantly stronger South Kaioushin Buu before becoming Fat Buu.

Kaioshin is talking about Pure Boo when he says his line "his heart which lowered his power has returned to the way it was", so it means that Pure Boo's power was lowered until now.

You see, that's where there's room for Goku to be wrong. Yes, it's very likely that he would have been able to destroy Fat Buu if Fat Buu remained at the strength he was at when the two of them fought, but it's shown multiple times that, when angry, his power skyrockets, much like how Gohan's would when he was younger, so Fat Buu wasn't at his full strength when the two of them fought.

Ow, you think that Goku was wrong and Fat boo, when angry, was stronger than Pure Boo. And I am being accused to say that Goku lied with no basis...
But then, when Goku said that Evil Boo's power increased when he turned into Buff Boo, I see no reason for it, apart from misleading the reader. Especially since Goku doesn't talk about Boo's power dropping right after, although he (Pure Boo) should clearly be twice as weak, at least, according to your theory.
I don't think it worked the way you interpret it, because in this case, the absorption of the South Kaioshin has no screenplay utility.

Somehow pretty much just means that first definition you gave, that "in some way" he absorbed him. In English, if you want to convey "for some reason", then the only thing to really say is "for some reason". Likewise, since this is Kibitoshin recounting the events of Buu's attack on the Kaioushin, him absorbing South Kaioushin is the first time, chronologically, that Buu had ever absorbed anyone, so the "somehow" is possibly an indication of him having no idea at the time how Buu is able to absorb others. Alternately, the "somehow" might be an indication of Kibitoshin being bewildered by the fact that Pure Buu had managed to absorb him, suggesting that he was surprised someone so strong and fast as South Kaioushin could ever be caught off guard long enough to be absorbed by Buu.

Ok, but I still disagree with this interpretation, because I think that if Boo was forced to absorb South Kai, it would have been clearer. Something like "Boo somehow managed to absorb the South Kaioshin".

I'm sorry but my belief that South Kaioshin is stronger than Pure Boo, or at least on par, is not baseless. It is a legitimate opinion as to why Pure Boo felt the need absorb the South Kaioshin where he previously killed the other two. You're opinion of "fusion doesn't have the same SSJ multipliers" however has nothing to back it up.

You know, in the manga, there is no indication about SSJ multipliers. And we don't really know if they're the same for each character. Besides, in your theory, Gotenks SS3 is stronger than Goku SS3 by the same gap there is between SS1 and SS2. You believe it's x2, based on the super guides. But in the manga, all I see is that the gap between Gohan SS1 and Gohan SS2 (Cell arc) is huge. Thus, there would be the same gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo, while the only thing stated is "everything about him is greater than before". Why not place the emphasis on his strength ?
The second problem is that South Kaioshin would be stronger than Boo, while the Kaioshins are supposed to be below SS1 Gohan's level. Such an exception should be mentioned IMO, but this is not the case.
At last but not least, remember that Gotenks never achieved SS2. Maybe the fusion somehow replaced it with SS3 so that the SS3 multipliers would fall on the SS2 level. It's weird but Gotenks went directly from the regular Super Saiyan to SS3, as if SS2 didn't exist in Fusion.

Pure Boo absorbed the strongest Kaioshin because he felt threatened or was backed into a corner where he desperately brought about the absorption.

Yeah, he's the strongest kaioshin. But Kibitoshin didn't say "the strongest of the universe" or "stronger than Boo". Thus, this is only your own interpretation. And I would say this is an unlikely interpretation.
I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong though, but my opinion also is defendable.

1) It could be argued at the same time that because he didn't have any absorptions left, he wasn't as powerful as he was before, and thus Goku was now confident he could beat him on his own. It's all a matter of interpretation.

2) It's a blanket statement about Buu as a whole, not just Pure Buu. He's saying that, before absorbing Dai Kaioushin, he was completely uncontrollable and pure evil, but absorbing the Dai Kaioushin gave him a heart and weakened his power (which would have been a decrease in his power from when he was South Kaioushin Buu).

3) We've seen on two occasions prior to Goku's battle with Fat Buu, that when Fat Buu gets angry, his power skyrockets. We see it once during him fighting Dabura, and then once again when he's fighting Ma-jin Vegeta. However, when he's fighting Goku, there's no indication that he's angry at all, and in fact is having a lot of fun during the fight and wishes it could continue. Because of that, we can conclude that, when fighting Goku, he wasn't putting out as much of his power as he could have if he were angry. So, as a result, Goku's statement about being able to defeat Fat Buu is potentially wrong, since while he could have defeated Fat Buu, when happy, he may have been a good deal weaker than Fat Buu would have been if he were angry.

Because Fat Buu and Evil Buu are essentially the same beings, it would stand to reason that Fat Buu's maximum possible potential would equal Evil Buu's. However, Fat Buu's ki is more heavily impacted by Dai Kaioushin's presence than Evil Buu's is, he can't readily tap into it at will, only able to when he grows angry (which in turn would conflict with Dai Kaioushin's gentle heart). When overcome with anger as a result of Mr. Satan nearly dying, Buu's power jumped to near Evil Buu's levels, but because of such a conflict between his anger and Dai Kaioushin's gentleness, he was forced to expel all the evil within him, which became the Pure Evil Buu. Then, when Evil Buu formed, he became greater than the Fat Buu because he could tap into that full power without issue, and was only conflicted when it came to Mr. Satan or Videl.

South Kaioushin Buu was there so that Kibitoshin could give background on the Kaioushin more clearly, and in turn was there to show where Evil Buu was getting so much of his power, since there was a clear indication of a power drop once he became Pure Buu.

4) Saying somehow pretty much implies that the events of Pure Buu absorbing South Kaioushin involved something he couldn't explain at the time. Whether it was how Buu was capable of absorbing him (as in how he's physically able to absorb things) or whether it was how Buu was able to get the drop on him to absorb him, we don't know, but it's a matter of "how", not "why".

5) That's the thing though, it's never stated at any point that the Kaioushin should all have to be below Ssj Gohan. As I and others have pointed out, the Z Sword can't be used as a clear indication because it doesn't establish who all tried it. All we know is that "numerous" Kaioushin tried, and given there have been a number of generations of Kaioushin to exist between Rou Kaioushin being sealed and Gohan attempting to remove it, that if even half of the total ones tried it, that'd be a numerous amount.

Likewise, as shown in the manga and confirmed in the Daizenshuu, Gotenks could use Ssj2. As for why he didn't use it when he actually tried to fight Buu, that one's pretty obvious. The entire time he was fighting Buu, he was showboating, and indicated he was wanting to hold back his best stuff until he made it seem that things were hopeless. Using his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, he had decent success while just in his normal Super Saiya-jin form, and as soon as he was going to advance to another level (after faking that he was out of power), Piccolo blew the doorway up, which in turn prompted Evil Buu to blow a hole through the dimensions and escape. By the time he had a reason/desire to transform into something above Super Saiya-jin, he didn't have the chance to.

[Draken]

//South Kaioshin hears that Majin Boo is on the loose and has already taken out West and North Kaioshin//

"Aw damn, this could be trouble."

//Effortlessly pulls out the Z-Sword//

"Hmmm... don't feel any stronger. Guess that's a dead end."

//Puts it back, goes to fight Boo without it.//

Sounds good to me. Like said above new head canon .

[Saiga]

//South Kaioshin hears that Majin Boo is on the loose and has already taken out West and North Kaioshin//

"Aw damn, this could be trouble."

//Effortlessly pulls out the Z-Sword//

"Hmmm... don't feel any stronger. Guess that's a dead end."

//Puts it back, goes to fight Boo without it.//

That's hilarious, though I really disagree that S. Kaioshin should be strong enough to pull it out. I just don't think Kaioshin could believe Gohan was capable of pulling it out if his strength is peanuts compared to S. Kaioshin.

[alakazam^]

Because Fat Buu and Evil Buu are essentially the same beings, it would stand to reason that Fat Buu's maximum possible potential would equal Evil Buu's. However, Fat Buu's ki is more heavily impacted by Dai Kaioushin's presence than Evil Buu's is, he can't readily tap into it at will, only able to when he grows angry (which in turn would conflict with Dai Kaioushin's gentle heart). When overcome with anger as a result of Mr. Satan nearly dying, Buu's power jumped to near Evil Buu's levels, but because of such a conflict between his anger and Dai Kaioushin's gentleness, he was forced to expel all the evil within him, which became the Pure Evil Buu. Then, when Evil Buu formed, he became greater than the Fat Buu because he could tap into that full power without issue, and was only conflicted when it came to Mr. Satan or Videl.

But that's not really stated or implied anywhere. We know Dai Kaioushin repressed Boo but his anger wasn't really expanded upon concerning his power and whatnot. It was a normal anger boost.

The way I see the split:

Fat Boo = 100%
/ \
Good Boo = 40% Pure Evil Boo = 60%

Which means that, no matter how angry Good Boo could get, he wouldn't surpass those 40% power. Also, can't remember if anyone stated Evil Boo was stronger than Fat Boo but Piccolo did say his body was better suited to battle, so it might help the idea that Evil Boo was Fat Boo with a lesser Dai Kaoushin influence.

I think we should try and think about Toriyama's perspective.

He introduced Kaioushin and Kibito. Going by the explanation of the gods not long after, we might believe he already planned for the Boo/Kaioushin backstory: four Kaious, one Dai Kaiou, four Kaioushin, one Dai Kaioushin.

He designed Fat Boo. Again, he might have already planned the absorbed Kaioushin backstory.

Boo splits in half. One fat and one skinny, both with cape and vest. It makes sense. They merge (by eating. Ok...) and he turns into a fit Boo with only pants. Ok, it's strange for him to lose the vest, cape and gloves but the body being the average of the extremes seems logical. His body becomes better for battles and he now can sense ki. Still remembers Satan and is somewhat attached to him.

Evil Boo starts absorbing people, getting stronger and smarter. Inside, Goku and Vegeta start detaching the pods. He reverts to normal Evil Boo and Vegeta threatens to release Good Boo and asks if he'll return to being Pure Evil Boo. This shows us that Toriyama hasn't forgotten about that form and that it would be the natural step to go. Evil Boo says "he" will disappear.

Now's the great mindfuck of the series: Pure Boo enters the scene.

Good Boo is detached. Evil Boo reverts to South Kaioushin Boo and right after into Pure Boo. His appearence is of a small Evil Boo. Still no vest, no gloves and no cape.

Ok, why was South Kaioushin Boo and Pure Boo needed? Toriyama was tired and wanted to end the series, why would he create two new Boo forms, being that one of them was useless and did nothing but give backstory to the dead Kaioushins and even that was not needed because Fat Boo already served that purpose? Why would he make Vegeta mention Pure Evil Boo if, obviously, he already intended Boo to revert to his original form? I could understand it being a shock factor but no character mentioned or thought about it, so... why?

Toriyama doesn't like overly complicated plots and he plans as he goes but we have to be fair and aknowledge he tends to wrap things up nicely. Why make this new Boo appear in the story and not being specific about his "role" in the strength hierarchy? I mean, he DID explain that Freeza's transformations worked backwards from the normal "common sense".