Fat Boo and Super Boo Differences!

[MDSTSSJ]

I know, is repetitive and annoying issue but I've always had that doubt.

Fat Boo: Dai Kaioshin dominant so his powers are restricted, how much power is restricted?

Super Boo: Evil Boo dominant, Dai Kaioshin restricts his powers more than a bit.

How much difference is there between Fat Buu and Super Buu? I think not too much.

For me, Fat Boo and Super Boo have the same strength. The detail is that Fat Boo have his power contained.

We all know that Dai Kaioshin has positive influence on Fat Boo but how much influence is positive enough to master a great evil power?

Fat Boo got tired on killing people and destroying cities with an apparent goodness dominating him. I wonder, if he is dominated by goodness, how could be possible for him to kill many people and make so much destruction?

For my, Fat Boo was more evil than goodness and not otherwise and that´s why I think the difference between them, is not soooooooo wide!

What do you guys think?

Cheers

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

[Terra-jin]

If the dominance of Dai Kaioshin meant a restriction of Buu's power, where do you put Kid Buu's power? The general consensus seems to be that he's not as strong as Super Buu.

I would agree that the difference between Fat Buu's and Super Buu's power is not that astronomical and that Fat Buu is still mostly evil. He just has, in addition to a sadistic, destructive streak, a capacity for kindness and caring.



Here's my own view: I think of Buu's power in terms of charges: evil, good or neutral. This is kinda supported by the fact that Babidi couldn't use Kaioshin's energy for Buu. In this viewpoint, demons and the like would have evil power, Kaio and Kaioshin would have good power and mortals neutral power. Good and evil power are subtracted from each other when combined through absorption.

When Buu separated, his evil side took all his evil power and Fat Buu was left with Kaioshin's power. However, Kaioshin's power was now coming through the filter of Good Fat Buu's body, which meant that his power became neutral (somehow...). Hence, it could be added to Super Buu's power, instead of subtracted from it.

This would explain why Super Buu would be stronger than Kid Buu. It would also mean that Evil Thin Buu and Kid Buu would have the same power, which is disputed by some.

[Amuro Ray]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

[Kamiccolo9]

I know, is repetitive and annoying issue but I've always had that doubt.

Fat Boo: Dai Kaioshin dominant so his powers are restricted, how much power is restricted?

Super Boo: Evil Boo dominant, Dai Kaioshin restricts his powers more than a bit.

How much difference is there between Fat Buu and Super Buu? I think not too much.

For me, Fat Boo and Super Boo have the same strength. The detail is that Fat Boo have his power contained.

We all know that Dai Kaioshin has positive influence on Fat Boo but how much influence is positive enough to master a great evil power?

Fat Boo got tired on killing people and destroying cities with an apparent goodness dominating him. I wonder, if he is dominated by goodness, how could be possible for him to kill many people and make so much destruction?

For my, Fat Boo was more evil than goodness and not otherwise and that´s why I think the difference between them, is not soooooooo wide!

What do you guys think?

Cheers

While Fat Buu and Super Buu are composed of the same parts (Dai Kaioshin, South Kaioshin, and Pure Buu), Super Buu was stronger than Fat Buu. Goku said he could destroy Fat Buu, and was scared to fight Super Buu, which implies that the latter is far stronger than the former, so Dai Kaioshin has a huge influence on restricting Fat Buu's power.

He didn't get tired of killing people; he was told it was wrong, and agreed to stop. He wasn't destroying stuff because he was evil, he did it because it's what he was told to do and he didn't know any better.

[MDSTSSJ]

Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

I agree with you only on that statement but, I also think Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo.

He didn't get tired of killing people; he was told it was wrong, and agreed to stop. He wasn't destroying stuff because he was evil, he did it because it's what he was told to do and he didn't know any better.

Kakarotto and Mr. Satan tells him that after he killed people and destroyed cities. Maybe he was acting like a child yes but, acting like an evil one. That´s why Dai Kaioshin HUGE ( I think much less 50% at most ) influence is not quite true.

Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo yes but, how much? Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo but, how much? For me in the two options, never Super Boo is at least 8 times stronger like DBZGTKOSDH says.

Kakaroto obviously knows that the children can become SSJ separately. With the fusion, Goku could easily assume that they would reach at least the power of SSJ2. " and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough " I think is a very accurate statement to be analyzed.

[Darkprince410]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

However, we can make these assessments given what is said and shown.

1) Goku expected that the fusion would be powerful enough to defeat Buu purely as it is. He rebuffed Piccolo's suggestion that they use the Room of Spirit and Time to master the fusion and to train, feeling that they may need it for some threat in the future and that the fusion by itself should be more than enough. Goku knows how powerful Ssj Gotenks should be, since he knows how powerful the boys are and has seen the fusion in action in the afterlife.

2) Piccolo never says anything doubting Gotenks' power once he forms as a Super Saiya-jin. Given what we've seen of his character in the past, he's been adamantly vocal about strength comparisons between individuals when watching them fight, and will readily point out if someone is stronger or weaker than they should be. Since he never once negatively comments about Ssj Gotenks' power when the two of them fuse, that suggests that he felt they were as strong as Goku said they should be, which puts them above the level of power Goku was using as a Super Saiya-jin 3 against Fat Buu

3) The story pretty clearly denotes a decrease in power. When they were removing the cocoons within Buu, Goku comments that they're making progress in weakening Buu, and that while they're not entirely "there" yet, reverting him to normal Evil Buu was a step in the right direction. Then we have him eventually transform from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu, which results in the comment about his strength increasing. THEN, after a second transformation, resulting in Pure Buu, Goku exclaims that "We did it!" and that he's something they can finally manage. Why would he be exclaiming that "We did it!" unless they completed something that they were previously working on, which in this case is weakening him down to the point that they could fight him on their own. Evil Buu was still too strong for them to handle, and at best was "Almost there" in Goku's eyes, yet he felt Pure Buu was weak enough for him to exclaim that they did it. That denotes a noticeable power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu.

[Hitiro]

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

It is his opinion, I'm sure he is equally as tired of you posting yours. And this discussion is meant to be about peoples opinions on the power gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo yet you have clearly twisted this conversation into being about the power gap between Pure Boo and Evil Boo. If you don't have anything relevant to discuss about the original post then you should probably not post anything at all. All I see in your post is a comparison of Pure Boo and Evil Boo, this has no relevance to the question posed. You are free to pose your own opinions on the power gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo, but please leave the off-topic stuff out of this conversation.

As for the original post, I feel it is the positive influence which directly separates the Dai Kaioshin's power from the original Boo's power in that while it is an addition to Boo's power the negative influences on the Pure Boo's power are much greater than the actual addition of the Dai Kaioshin's power. How I see it is:

Dai Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 50
Power Boo gains: 50 - 100 = -50

South Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 125
Power Boo gains: 125 - 100 = 25

Of course when we are speaking with Evil Boo(Super Boo) then Evil Boo isn't directly effected by the Dai Kaioshin's presence, as that now resides in the Fat Boo. So the difference is Evil Boo's power comes from having the original Boo's power plus having Fat Boo's which is restricting Evil Boo's power to a lesser degree. Still preventing him from assuming the power Pure Boo got from absorbing the South Kaioshin though. I mostly agree with the gap DBZGTKOSDH posed. Goku wasn't going all out against Fat Boo when he was fighting him. In fact, in my own opinion he may have been fighting with only half of his power. Fat Boo would then be about 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta seeing as it was fairly even between him and a Restrained SSJ3 Goku. Also considering how badly Pure Boo(Kid Boo) beating fat Boo considering Pure Boo is on par with SSJ3 Goku then 2x seems weaker seems like a fair estimate. I would say that the Pure Evil Boo(Grey Boo) that popped out when Fat Boo got mad was closer to SSJ3 Goku in power. I'll just say he's on SSJ3 Goku's level for now. So that would be something like:

Numbers scaling from a multiplication of Majin Vegeta's Power level where 4 = SSJ3 Goku
Fat Boo + South Kaioshin(Restricted) + Pure Boo = Evil Boo
2 + 4 + 4 = 10(or 8x Fat Boo)

[Kamiccolo9]

Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

I agree with you only on that statement but, I also think Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo.

He didn't get tired of killing people; he was told it was wrong, and agreed to stop. He wasn't destroying stuff because he was evil, he did it because it's what he was told to do and he didn't know any better.

Kakarotto and Mr. Satan tells him that after he killed people and destroyed cities. Maybe he was acting like a child yes but, acting like an evil one. That´s why Dai Kaioshin HUGE ( I think much less 50% at most ) influence is not quite true.

Super Boo is stronger than Fat Boo yes but, how much? Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo but, how much? For me in the two options, never Super Boo is at least 8 times stronger like DBZGTKOSDH says.

Kakaroto obviously knows that the children can become SSJ separately. With the fusion, Goku could easily assume that they would reach at least the power of SSJ2. " and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough " I think is a very accurate statement to be analyzed.

He's not acting like an evil child; he doesn't know what's right and what's wrong. That's why as soon as he's told what he's doing is wrong, he stops. The Dai Kaioshin influence has an enormous effect on his mental state. Just look at his behavior and actions compared to any other Buu that doesn't have the Dai Kaioshin influence.

[MDSTSSJ]

Of course when we are speaking with Evil Boo(Super Boo) then Evil Boo isn't directly effected by the Dai Kaioshin's presence, as that now resides in the Fat Boo. So the difference is Evil Boo's power comes from having the original Boo's power plus having Fat Boo's which is restricting Evil Boo's power to a lesser degree. Still preventing him from assuming the power Pure Boo got from absorbing the South Kaioshin though. I mostly agree with the gap DBZGTKOSDH posed. Goku wasn't going all out against Fat Boo when he was fighting him. In fact, in my own opinion he may have been fighting with only half of his power. Fat Boo would then be about 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta seeing as it was fairly even between him and a Restrained SSJ3 Goku. Also considering how badly Pure Boo(Kid Boo) beating fat Boo considering Pure Boo is on par with SSJ3 Goku then 2x seems weaker seems like a fair estimate. I would say that the Pure Evil Boo(Grey Boo) that popped out when Fat Boo got mad was closer to SSJ3 Goku in power. I'll just say he's on SSJ3 Goku's level for now.

If Super Boo is 8 times stronger than contained Fat Boo, what´s the difference in power between Super Boo and Pure Boo?

[MDSTSSJ]

I would agree that the difference between Fat Buu's and Super Buu's power is not that astronomical

I agree and 8 times for me is too much.

and that Fat Buu is still mostly evil. He just has, in addition to a sadistic, destructive streak, a capacity for kindness and caring.

For me that´s the perfect description for that Fat Boo. That´s why I think The Dai Kaioshin influence is only 50% at most.

[Hitiro]

If Super Boo is 8 times stronger than contained Fat Boo, what´s the difference in power between Super Boo and Pure Boo?

If Fat Boo is 2x weaker than SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo is roughly equal to SSJ3 Goku then the difference in power would be that Evil Boo(Super Boo) is 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo.

[Amuro Ray]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

However, we can make these assessments given what is said and shown.

1) Goku expected that the fusion would be powerful enough to defeat Buu purely as it is. He rebuffed Piccolo's suggestion that they use the Room of Spirit and Time to master the fusion and to train, feeling that they may need it for some threat in the future and that the fusion by itself should be more than enough. Goku knows how powerful Ssj Gotenks should be, since he knows how powerful the boys are and has seen the fusion in action in the afterlife.

2) Piccolo never says anything doubting Gotenks' power once he forms as a Super Saiya-jin. Given what we've seen of his character in the past, he's been adamantly vocal about strength comparisons between individuals when watching them fight, and will readily point out if someone is stronger or weaker than they should be. Since he never once negatively comments about Ssj Gotenks' power when the two of them fuse, that suggests that he felt they were as strong as Goku said they should be, which puts them above the level of power Goku was using as a Super Saiya-jin 3 against Fat Buu

3) The story pretty clearly denotes a decrease in power. When they were removing the cocoons within Buu, Goku comments that they're making progress in weakening Buu, and that while they're not entirely "there" yet, reverting him to normal Evil Buu was a step in the right direction. Then we have him eventually transform from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu, which results in the comment about his strength increasing. THEN, after a second transformation, resulting in Pure Buu, Goku exclaims that "We did it!" and that he's something they can finally manage. Why would he be exclaiming that "We did it!" unless they completed something that they were previously working on, which in this case is weakening him down to the point that they could fight him on their own. Evil Buu was still too strong for them to handle, and at best was "Almost there" in Goku's eyes, yet he felt Pure Buu was weak enough for him to exclaim that they did it. That denotes a noticeable power drop from Evil Buu to Pure Buu.

Oh boy, here we go shifting through this mess -
1) Goku knows that fusion is a powerful technique and is assuming (like you are - incorrectly might I add) that the boys will be strong enough to beat Buu. It's apparent that after they fuse, they are no match for BUU (as Piccolo notes) as seen from the post battle thrashing, from Gotenks comments, and from Buu himself (on their second meeting) and even Goku has his doubts

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

So quit saying that shit, its absolutely infuriating to see you use this argument when it's blatantly incorrect.

2) This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard - because Piccolo didn't comment negatively on their power, they are stronger than Goku? Does anyone else reading this realize how silly that sounds? Piccolo also didn't comment negatively about their power when they first fused and attempted to fight Fatbuu - or when they transformed into SSJ for the first or second time. The Daizenshuu book states it isn't until AFTER the rosat training that the boys are able to surpass Vegeta

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

3) The story mentions no such thing as a power decrease - and even IF there were one, it would be minor. There are a couple of reasons this theory doesn't work, namely the Kais energy do not add power to Manjin Buu as stated by Babidi, for one. Then there is the issue of the Saiya-jin being arguably more powerful than any of the Kais, as told by Kibito numerous expressions and remarks, including SSJ Gohan lifting the Z sword. This means that whatever power the South Kai added (which is none) wouldn't have been much. Then there is the issue of what is stated - no one mentions a drop in Kidbuu's power (though we do find out later he is stronger than they originally believed) and the fear on Kibitos face when Kidbuu appears (no concern of sort was shown for the original Superbuu) There is also the statement made by Kibito on the absorbtions of the Kais actually weakened Buu, though of course you'll debate it was only one that weakened him, but the statement remains.

[Amuro Ray]

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

It is his opinion, I'm sure he is equally as tired of you posting yours. And this discussion is meant to be about peoples opinions on the power gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo yet you have clearly twisted this conversation into being about the power gap between Pure Boo and Evil Boo. If you don't have anything relevant to discuss about the original post then you should probably not post anything at all. All I see in your post is a comparison of Pure Boo and Evil Boo, this has no relevance to the question posed. You are free to pose your own opinions on the power gap between Fat Boo and Evil Boo, but please leave the off-topic stuff out of this conversation.

As for the original post, I feel it is the positive influence which directly separates the Dai Kaioshin's power from the original Boo's power in that while it is an addition to Boo's power the negative influences on the Pure Boo's power are much greater than the actual addition of the Dai Kaioshin's power. How I see it is:

Dai Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 50
Power Boo gains: 50 - 100 = -50

South Kaioshin
Purity: 100
Power: 125
Power Boo gains: 125 - 100 = 25

Of course when we are speaking with Evil Boo(Super Boo) then Evil Boo isn't directly effected by the Dai Kaioshin's presence, as that now resides in the Fat Boo. So the difference is Evil Boo's power comes from having the original Boo's power plus having Fat Boo's which is restricting Evil Boo's power to a lesser degree. Still preventing him from assuming the power Pure Boo got from absorbing the South Kaioshin though. I mostly agree with the gap DBZGTKOSDH posed. Goku wasn't going all out against Fat Boo when he was fighting him. In fact, in my own opinion he may have been fighting with only half of his power. Fat Boo would then be about 2x stronger than Majin Vegeta seeing as it was fairly even between him and a Restrained SSJ3 Goku. Also considering how badly Pure Boo(Kid Boo) beating fat Boo considering Pure Boo is on par with SSJ3 Goku then 2x seems weaker seems like a fair estimate. I would say that the Pure Evil Boo(Grey Boo) that popped out when Fat Boo got mad was closer to SSJ3 Goku in power. I'll just say he's on SSJ3 Goku's level for now. So that would be something like:

Numbers scaling from a multiplication of Majin Vegeta's Power level where 4 = SSJ3 Goku
Fat Boo + South Kaioshin(Restricted) + Pure Boo = Evil Boo
2 + 4 + 4 = 10(or 8x Fat Boo)

Your formula is terrible and it makes no sense based on what I posted above.

[Hitiro]

Your formula is terrible and it makes no sense based on what I posted above.

My formula is just based on my own personal opinion. Its not fact. And based on what you posted above you're not the "authority" on the dragon ball universe. So please get off your high horse and stop telling people they are wrong when you yourself are spouting things based off your own opinion. For instance:

1) Goku knows that fusion is a powerful technique and is assuming (like you are - incorrectly might I add) that the boys will be strong enough to beat Buu. It's apparent that after they fuse, they are no match for BUU (as Piccolo notes) as seen from the post battle thrashing, from Gotenks comments, and from Buu himself (on their second meeting) and even Goku has his doubts

This is no relevance when we're talking about SSJ Gotenks. Yes, Base Gotenks gets a thrashing from Fat Boo. But its clear he was strong enough not to get killed in just his base form. Going by any logical viewpoint his SSJ form should be more than a match for Fat Boo as if Fat Boo was more than 50x stronger than Gotenks then Gotenks wouldn't have come back alive at all.

So quit saying that shit, its absolutely infuriating to see you use this argument when it's blatantly incorrect.

Comments like this are going to get you banned from these forums. With your attitude I don't see why you should be allowed to post. Its fine to say "I disagree with your opinion, here is why." but blatantly attacking a fellow fan of the franchise and being condescending is a disgusting show of your character. You need to grow up and learn to count to 10 if people opinions bother you so much.

2) This is some of the worst logic I have ever heard - because Piccolo didn't comment negatively on their power, they are stronger than Goku? Does anyone else reading this realize how silly that sounds? Piccolo also didn't comment negatively about their power when they first fused and attempted to fight Fatbuu - or when they transformed into SSJ for the first or second time. The Daizenshuu book states it isn't until AFTER the rosat training that the boys are able to surpass Vegeta

The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others.

And this helps us how? What strength and power are we talking about here? Vegeta's base? Why would that be impressive? Surely two Saiyan's fusing together which aren't that far behind would make a warrior that already surpasses the strongest base Saiyan's. A fusion between Goku and Vegeta allows them to be a SSJ and have enough power to take on an enemy who is arguably a couple of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, with the fact that there is both Evil Boo + Gohan in there. The assumption can be made that Gotenks surpassed the Saiyan's SSJ strength or further. This sentence is vague in its detail, it says that they surpassed Vegeta and the others in strength but it doesn't specify in what area or if its their maximum strength, which would be what Vegeta displayed as Majin Vegeta. As for Piccolo not commenting negatively on their power. That doesn't mean they are stronger than Goku. Piccolo mentioned it seemed to him that he might be able to take Boo apart if he fought him seriously. Of course Goku says he doubts it. But then as you plainly provided in quote, Goku isn't of that world so he didn't try to beat Fat Boo. Piccolo may feel that just Gotenks being close to Goku in power, but not actually as strong as Goku is to have enough power to take down Fat Boo. Which he would be correct in assuming. And yes, Piccolo did negatively comment on when they first fused:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

As you can see Piccolo knows they can't win as base Saiyan's, which is why before this quote he says to try the fusion again as SSJ's. One things for sure though, they are still "incredible" in their base. Piccolo wouldn't say this if they weren't as strong as, or more powerful than, Goku, Vegeta and Gohan.

3) The story mentions no such thing as a power decrease - and even IF there were one, it would be minor. There are a couple of reasons this theory doesn't work, namely the Kais energy do not add power to Manjin Buu as stated by Babidi, for one. Then there is the issue of the Saiya-jin being arguably more powerful than any of the Kais, as told by Kibito numerous expressions and remarks, including SSJ Gohan lifting the Z sword. This means that whatever power the South Kai added (which is none) wouldn't have been much. Then there is the issue of what is stated - no one mentions a drop in Kidbuu's power (though we do find out later he is stronger than they originally believed) and the fear on Kibitos face when Kidbuu appears (no concern of sort was shown for the original Superbuu) There is also the statement made by Kibito on the absorbtions of the Kais actually weakened Buu, though of course you'll debate it was only one that weakened him, but the statement remains.

Actually the Kaioshin are depicted as being stronger than the base Saiyan's. Gohan says he probably have a difficult time against Kibito unless he went SSJ and the Kaioshin is stronger than that. The Daizenshuu will also back this up as in Kibito's bio it says “His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn’t a Super Saiyan.” Its more than likely that the South Kaioshin is actually on par with SSJ3 Goku or stronger. This would be a legitimate reason as to why Pure Boo would try to absorb him. As a desperate move not to be beaten. Do you really think Pure Boo would absorb a weakling or start randomly absorbing people just when he is fighting strongest Kaioshin when he had just killed the other two? Something would have had to make him desperate enough to absorb the South Kaioshin or he wouldn't have done it otherwise. As for the statement you are mentioning:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

The problem with this quote is the "absorption" bit. As someone who is quite adept at Japanese will tell you the structure of a sentence can usually indicate whether something is a plural or not. the is there because this sentence that the Kaioshin says is very vague in its structuring. Hence there is no way to tell whether this absorption should be the plural form. So Herms has put the to cover all basis. It may by absorption or it may be absorptions. We'll never know unless someone asks the man himself, who by now has probably forgotten what he meant.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

And I've gotten tired of your attitude. You ignore facts to prove your point, you ignore accurate translations to prove your point, you don't accept others' opinion on things that can't be proven, and you use the shitty scanlations as facts. Then you get offended when I post you that "I won't even bother to reply you anymore".

[Amuro Ray]

Piccolo said that Evil Boo was stronger than Innocent Boo. SS3 Goku was stronger than Innocent Boo, and he expected SS Gotenks to be stronger than Innocent Boo as well, and it is more likely true, since Piccolo believed that SS Gotenks didn't stand a chance against Boo only after we transformed into Evil Boo. SS3 Gotenks was around Evil Boo's level, so, if SS3 Gotenks ~ Evil Boo, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo, and SS3 Gotenks = SS Gotenks x8, this means that Evil Boo is at least 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo, which is a very large gap in their powers.

I'm sorry, but I get tired of you posting this - Just because Goku assumes that the boys would have been able to beat buu, doesn't automatically make them as powerful as himself, and there was no assumption that SSJ would be enough. Piccolo even suggest the boys actually train to make themselves stronger - this statement leads us (the reader) to assume that even in SSJ form, they wouldn't be enough to beat Buu.

As far as the Buu arguement goes, KidBuu is theortically stronger than SuperBuu, nothing in the story refutes his power rising after the transfermation, and we know the removal of the Kai increased in power. He should be more powerful than Superbuu.

And I've gotten tired of your attitude. You ignore facts to prove your point, you ignore accurate translations to prove your point, you don't accept others' opinion on things that can't be proven, and you use the shitty scanlations as facts. Then you get offended when I post you that "I won't even bother to reply you anymore".

The funny part is, all my quotes come directly from Herms. Defeat is a hard pill to swallow for some...

[Kaboom]

This is not a matter of victory or defeat. Everyone - once more, everyone - is expected to have discussions and even debates with their fellow forumgoers in a friendly and respectful manner. Let's try to remember that, please.

[Amuro Ray]

This is no relevance when we're talking about SSJ Gotenks. Yes, Base Gotenks gets a thrashing from Fat Boo. But its clear he was strong enough not to get killed in just his base form. Going by any logical viewpoint his SSJ form should be more than a match for Fat Boo as if Fat Boo was more than 50x stronger than Gotenks then Gotenks wouldn't have come back alive at all.

This is a weak arguement (I'm trying my best not to be rude here) only because it implies that you have to be near someones strenght to escape from them. Fatbuu is stated to be unable to sense Ki - meaning there are plenty of opportunities the boys could have had to escape - Honestly, we have no idea of what happened in the fight except for the boys lost.

Comments like this are going to get you banned from these forums. With your attitude I don't see why you should be allowed to post. Its fine to say "I disagree with your opinion, here is why." but blatantly attacking a fellow fan of the franchise and being condescending is a disgusting show of your character. You need to grow up and learn to count to 10 if people opinions bother you so much.

I absolutely disagree with everything you post.

And this helps us how? What strength and power are we talking about here? Vegeta's base? Why would that be impressive? Surely two Saiyan's fusing together which aren't that far behind would make a warrior that already surpasses the strongest base Saiyan's. A fusion between Goku and Vegeta allows them to be a SSJ and have enough power to take on an enemy who is arguably a couple of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, with the fact that there is both Evil Boo + Gohan in there. The assumption can be made that Gotenks surpassed the Saiyan's SSJ strength or further. This sentence is vague in its detail, it says that they surpassed Vegeta and the others in strength but it doesn't specify in what area or if its their maximum strength, which would be what Vegeta displayed as Majin Vegeta. As for Piccolo not commenting negatively on their power. That doesn't mean they are stronger than Goku. Piccolo mentioned it seemed to him that he might be able to take Boo apart if he fought him seriously. Of course Goku says he doubts it. But then as you plainly provided in quote, Goku isn't of that world so he didn't try to beat Fat Boo. Piccolo may feel that just Gotenks being close to Goku in power, but not actually as strong as Goku is to have enough power to take down Fat Boo. Which he would be correct in assuming. And yes, Piccolo did negatively comment on when they first fused:

It doesn't matter if it's base Vegeta or SSJ2 - we know what the multipliers are - the gap wouldn't change. The quote does show that Goku, who is above Vegeta, is not mentioned in that quote. And Piccolo also thought the Kai's power was incredible - this just simply alludes to Piccolo is comparing everyone elses power to his own.

Actually the Kaioshin are depicted as being stronger than the base Saiyan's. Gohan says he probably have a difficult time against Kibito unless he went SSJ and the Kaioshin is stronger than that. The Daizenshuu will also back this up as in Kibito's bio it says “His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn’t a Super Saiyan.” Its more than likely that the South Kaioshin is actually on par with SSJ3 Goku or stronger. This would be a legitimate reason as to why Pure Boo would try to absorb him. As a desperate move not to be beaten. Do you really think Pure Boo would absorb a weakling or start randomly absorbing people just when he is fighting strongest Kaioshin when he had just killed the other two? Something would have had to make him desperate enough to absorb the South Kaioshin or he wouldn't have done it otherwise. As for the statement you are mentioning:

Gohan is weaker than Both Goku and Vegeta - that comment proves Kibito is weak. Beyond that, there is no way you can assume the South Kai's PL is any level near Goku's - it's a horribly weak arguement. We don't know how or why Buu aborbed who he did - but I already posted that the Kia's energy isn't compatiable with Buu regardless.

The problem with this quote is the "absorption" bit. As someone who is quite adept at Japanese will tell you the structure of a sentence can usually indicate whether something is a plural or not. the is there because this sentence that the Kaioshin says is very vague in its structuring. Hence there is no way to tell whether this absorption should be the plural form. So Herms has put the to cover all basis. It may by absorption or it may be absorptions. We'll never know unless someone asks the man himself, who by now has probably forgotten what he meant.

Well aware - but why can't assume it's meant in the way I want it too? Isn't that exactly what you are doing?

[Amuro Ray]

This is not a matter of victory or defeat. Everyone - once more, everyone - is expected to have discussions and even debates with their fellow forumgoers in a friendly and respectful manner. Let's try to remember that, please.

I'm trying - I really am.