Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Hugo Boss]

Interesting theory, @Tectorman. It seems Goku's tail somehow may substitute a full developed body.

In response to the others. It's a lot more interesting discussion when people come to this place to present their theories than present the absolute truth. This is a bit harsh commment to make, but I don't know how to phrase it more friendly. It's unconfortable to see a guy writing an awesome post, put a lot of effort on it, and others point that it diverges from what is explicitily shown. Maybe that might be true, but come on. We really don't need to have a consensus, just a proper conversation. Yes, some things about Dragon Ball GT are a bit difficult to accept, but I'm okay with them. It's still fun and worth of Dragon Ball's name.

So, let's ignore what the series says, and make up our own theories? I would accept this when it comes to plot-holes, but there is no plot-hole here. It's like saying that Ultimate Gohan in Boo arc can't transform into a Super Saiyan and get stronger as we are shown, but this doesn't make sense, he is in base form, so he should still get x50 stronger. It doesn't sound like an interesting discussion to me.

I mean there is no problem about not having a consensus about how people interpret some part of in-universe material, at least for me. I would like to understand what makes a discussion interesting for you, in particular. What exactly means "ignore what the series says" or "this doesn't make sense"? It doesn't seem like a good way to proceed in a friendly talk.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I mean there is no problem about not having a consensus about how people interpret some part of in-universe material, at least for me. I would like to understand what makes a discussion interesting for you, in particular. What exactly means "ignore what the series says" or "this doesn't make sense"? It doesn't seem like a good way to proceed in a friendly talk.

I'm not attacking anyone. The thing is, we are told that Goku's power was exactly the same in both fights, so there shouldn't be any discussion about this in the first place.

[Hugo Boss]

I mean there is no problem about not having a consensus about how people interpret some part of in-universe material, at least for me. I would like to understand what makes a discussion interesting for you, in particular. What exactly means "ignore what the series says" or "this doesn't make sense"? It doesn't seem like a good way to proceed in a friendly talk.

I'm not attacking anyone. The thing is, we are told that Goku's power was exactly the same in both fights, so there shouldn't be any discussion about this in the first place.

I didn't say you attacked anyone, but the way you choose those last words suggests that sometimes you lack a bit of empathy about other people. They might understand differently the same scenes you saw. No one just ignored what Goku and Bebi said. If I believe something is nonsense, I would try a better way to present my opinion, don't you agree? I'm not asking you stop bringing information, you are an awesome member overall, that should be recognized.

Seizing the moment to talk about the beginning of Dragon Ball GT, I read something in this thread about the possibility of Goku using transformations against Oob in the first match. They didn't tell anything about this, but did Goku say he went through his limits? That could suggest he really used SS3.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Seizing the moment to talk about the beginning of Dragon Ball GT, I read something in this thread about the possibility of Goku using transformations against Oob in the first match. They didn't tell anything about this, but did Goku say he went through his limits? That could suggest he really used SS3.

After the end of their fight, Goku says to Dende that he went all-out against Oob. This could mean that he went Super Saiyan 3, but it could also mean that Goku went all-out in base.

[Tectorman]

As for Goku asking Karin to compare him to Cell, Goku wanted Karin's expectations for Cell's full power. Also, Cell was just standing around, so Goku wouldn't be able to get a good read on his Ki (standing Ki vs. fighting Ki), and it's likely Cell was suppressed, since none of the Z-fighters or super powered beings that can suppress ever really stand/walk around at full power.

That's something that I've wondered about.

With the exceptions of Ginyu and Frieza, the idea of a fighter changing his battle power was unknown to most of the outer space warriors.

It's even confirmed that this is something new for Vegeta when he faces Cui. He starts out with 18,000 before revealing that he can go to 24,000, and he passes that off as something he learned on Earth.

Except, don't we see the Saiyans powering up on Earth? I think I remember Nappa revving up and I know we saw Vegeta power up (right after he proved himself superior to Goku in Base and at Kaioken x1).

So if they weren't able to suppress at that point, then what were they doing?

[Hugo Boss]

Perhaps freely controling the extent of measurable ki was so rare that Vegeta believed no one in the universe was capable of doing it besides him and Nappa. And after learning from his experience on Earth Vegeta noted it was more common than Cui thought.

[dbgtFO]

Perhaps freely controling the extent of measurable ki was so rare that Vegeta believed no one in the universe was capable of doing it besides him and Nappa. And after learning from his experience on Earth Vegeta noted it was more common than Cui thought.

Vegeta's statement for reference:

Vegeta: “Did you call us rivals? Kukkukkuku…Well then, I’ll show you something…An interesting thing that I learned from the locals when I went to Earth…[ ] How to control my battle power!”

Sounds to me like it's first now he's found out how to do it.

[Hugo Boss]

Weird, in his fight with Goku, Vegeta seemed to be able to already control his battle power. The fight went differently when he concentrated his ki. That could mean Vegeta actually learned how to lower his battle power, since he was naturally very strong on Earth, but using full power would require focus.

[Tectorman]

Giving the scenario another angle (which is not to say I'm discounting my previous theory)...

Goku didn't go there because he believed the tail would make his SS3 last longer, he went there because according to Rou Kaioshin, the tail would release his dormant powers & make him stronger. It turned out that Goku's power hadn't increased at all however, and he wasn't aware of this until Baby told him.

You're saying that Goku had his tail pulled out, expected a power boost to kick in at some point, went off to face Baby a second time, hoping it would kick in by the moment of truth, and when he powered up to SSJ3 to fight Baby the second time, he saw for the first time that he hadn't improved.

That actually doesn't conflict with my theory that Goku's kid form was hampering the amount of power he could use. I just have to tweak it some.

The Raditz fight
Goku (weighted clothes): 334 (has 408, but only registers as 334 and only has 334 available to use)
Goku (unhampered): 408

Right before GT started (not the same scale as the Raditz fight, obviously):
Goku (adult): 2
Goku (adult SSJ): 100
Goku (adult SSJ2): 200
Goku (adult SSJ3): 800

GT starts, Goku is wished to a kid's form, which applies an external factor to hamper his power just like weighted clothes.

Goku (kid): 1 (hampered down from 2
Goku (kid SSJ): 50 (down from 100)
Goku (kid SSJ2): 100 (down from 200)
Goku (kid SSJ3): 400 (down from 800)

Baby Vegeta shows up and Goku proceeds to fight him.

Goku kid SSJ3: 400
Baby Vegeta: 420

Goku powers down. Baby Vegeta, already stronger than Goku's kid SSJ3, powers up.

Super Baby Vegeta: 840

SBV is now stronger than both Goku's current SSJ3 and the most he was capable of according to Vegeta's memories. Later, he powers up again.

Super Baby Vegeta 2: 1,200

Goku has his tail pulled out, expected a power boost to manifest at some point. Events require he confront SBV2 before the boost takes effect. He hopes it will by the time of the actual fight, but it doesn't.

Goku (tailed kid SSJ3): still 400 (still hampered down from 800)

...

Actually, this explanation helps with another issue. One of the biggest problems with giving SSJ4 a x10 multiplier over SSJ3 due to the Oozaru is that it would apply to both Goku and Baby. Making the power disparity between SSJ3 kid Goku and Super Baby Vegeta 2 carry over to the fight between SSJ4 Goku and Oozaru Baby Vegeta***.

***

Spoiler:

Basically, the problem is that if SSJ3 Goku is X and Super Baby Vegeta 2 is Y where Y > X, then 10Y will still be greater than 10X. Which is not what we observed when SSJ4 Goku was fighting Oozaru Baby Vegeta.

My original theory to explain this was that there was some kind of negative interaction between the Oozaru and Baby.

When Goku finally defeated OBV, Baby found that he was stuck in a humanoid form due to having grown so big. So we know that the Oozaru can has one negative interaction with Baby (Baby couldn't get small anymore). And if the Oozaru can have one negative interaction, it can have two (Baby couldn't get small anymore, and he didn't get the full benefit of the x10).

That was my first explanation, and while I still think it is a factor...

It's possible that while Goku was getting a x10 when he went SSJ4, he was also getting a boost (or rather, losing a hampering factor) from going back to an adult body.

Goku kid SSJ3: 400 (down from 800)
Goku kid SSJ4 (hypothetically): 4,000 (down from 8,000)
Goku adult SSJ4 (what we actually see): 8,000

Baby, in contrast, would experience this :

SBV2: 1,200
Oozaru Baby Vegeta (assuming no negative interation, which is not what happened): 12,000
Oozaru Baby Vegeta (with the negative interaction, what we actually see): 8,000

And then the two fight evenly (not counting moments where they're exhausted and one is revitalized but not the other, and so on).

[Mycophobia]

I just wanted to clarify the whole point made by several debatters about Vegetto SSJ being Stronger than Goku SSJ4 :

Actually Goku SSJ4 was never said to be weaker than Vegetto SSJ,on the contrary.
Baby Vegeta 2 was described by Goku as the strongest being that ever existed in the DBVerse :

http://s2.postimg.org/bsr5tovg9/3_goku_ ... i_he_f.jpg

Gokus says that he has the strongest Ki ever felt so please,don't listen to what GT Perfect say,i mean...They also said once that Gogeta SSJ4 was only x10 stronger than Goku SSJ4 which is obviously false,the anime and the manga show us that the fusion multiplier is much more important than a simple x10 boost.

[h0kuten]

a) There is no evidence to suggest Vegetto can go Super Saiyan 3.
b) Evidence shows Goku SSJG (Initial) > Beerus (Expected Full Power) > Vegetto Ssj3 (BoG)

So clearly Goku SSJGSS is more hacked and over powered. However his power comes with some logical reasoning unlike GT Goku.

[supercat]

Exactly, if anyone were to win the title for the most inflated hax of all-time, it'd be GT Goku. EoZ Goku would come in second place if the original EoZ is a separate continuity.

[Darkprince410]

I just wanted to clarify the whole point made by several debatters about Vegetto SSJ being Stronger than Goku SSJ4 :

Actually Goku SSJ4 was never said to be weaker than Vegetto SSJ,on the contrary.
Baby Vegeta 2 was described by Goku as the strongest being that ever existed in the DBVerse :

http://s2.postimg.org/bsr5tovg9/3_goku_ ... i_he_f.jpg

Gokus says that he has the strongest Ki ever felt so please,don't listen to what GT Perfect say,i mean...They also said once that Gogeta SSJ4 was only x10 stronger than Goku SSJ4 which is obviously false,the anime and the manga show us that the fusion multiplier is much more important than a simple x10 boost.

1) There's the anime comic version of Dragon Ball GT: A Hero's Legacy that, in a section related to Goku's evolution throughout the franchise up to that point, comments that Vegetto is potentially even greater than Super Saiya-jin 4.

2) We've also seen in other Toei-related work that Goku, saying the exact same thing before, has done so excluding what he personally has experienced. In movie 12, he makes the exact same comment about Janemba's first form (the fat one) and then effortlessly takes him out as Super Saiya-jin 3. Given that course of events, despite having said that, he clearly took himself out of the picture when saying it was the highest ki he had ever sensed (in regards to Janemba) Therefore, logically, Goku saying that about Bebi Vegeta could very simply mean that it's the highest ki he's ever felt from someone else before, since he was still part of Vegetto.

3) Actually, no it doesn't. The GT Perfect Files describe Ssj4 Gogeta as being "many tens of times" stronger than Ssj4 Goku, not simply ten times stronger.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

There is no evidence to suggest Vegetto can go Super Saiyan 3.

Evidence shows Goku SSJG (Initial) > Beerus (Expected Full Power) > Vegetto Ssj3 (BoG)

[Mycophobia]

I just wanted to clarify the whole point made by several debatters about Vegetto SSJ being Stronger than Goku SSJ4 :

Actually Goku SSJ4 was never said to be weaker than Vegetto SSJ,on the contrary.
Baby Vegeta 2 was described by Goku as the strongest being that ever existed in the DBVerse :

http://s2.postimg.org/bsr5tovg9/3_goku_ ... i_he_f.jpg

Gokus says that he has the strongest Ki ever felt so please,don't listen to what GT Perfect say,i mean...They also said once that Gogeta SSJ4 was only x10 stronger than Goku SSJ4 which is obviously false,the anime and the manga show us that the fusion multiplier is much more important than a simple x10 boost.

1) There's the anime comic version of Dragon Ball GT: A Hero's Legacy that, in a section related to Goku's evolution throughout the franchise up to that point, comments that Vegetto is potentially even greater than Super Saiya-jin 4.

2) We've also seen in other Toei-related work that Goku, saying the exact same thing before, has done so excluding what he personally has experienced. In movie 12, he makes the exact same comment about Janemba's first form (the fat one) and then effortlessly takes him out as Super Saiya-jin 3. Given that course of events, despite having said that, he clearly took himself out of the picture when saying it was the highest ki he had ever sensed (in regards to Janemba) Therefore, logically, Goku saying that about Bebi Vegeta could very simply mean that it's the highest ki he's ever felt from someone else before, since he was still part of Vegetto.

3) Actually, no it doesn't. The GT Perfect Files describe Ssj4 Gogeta as being "many tens of times" stronger than Ssj4 Goku, not simply ten times stronger.

1)Can we even consider it as an official source ? I mean,i really find it hard to believe that Vegetto SSJ could still be relevant in GT,this anime comics thing just seems as reliable as the GT Perfect Files (meaning that they both come from TOEI and that they obviously contain a lot of bullshit) so i don't know if we can consider his content as an evidence.

2) False,Goku only said that Janemba was extremely strong because he forced him to use his SSJ3 form and that he (Janemba) sould be proud of himself for being able to perform such a great feat,and it is very possible that the Fusion Reborn movie takes place in an alternate universe when Gotenks actually defeated Super Buu so Goku was probably making a comparison between Fat Buu and Fat Janemba and if it is the case,then yes,Janemba really had the strongest ki ever felt but i don't remember him saying that in the movie.

And for the comments that Goku made about Bebi Bejita,imo he was also talking about Vegetto seeing how surprised and happy he was when he commented Bebi Bejita's power,he later says to the kids that they wouldn't be able to beat him even if they decide to perform the fusion.
And Goku knows the power of Vegetto,he also knows for a fact that he could beat Kid Buu and Super Buu effortlessy (he says it in the manga) so even if he was still a part of Vegetto at the time,he knows how important is Vegetto's power.

3) Are you sure ? Can you prove it ? Last time i checked Gogeta's profile on DBWiki it was stated that Gogeta SSJ4 Shadow Dragons Saga was only dozens of times stronger than Goku SSJ4FP.

Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is said to be dozens of times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4[2]

Are you trying to tell me that Vegetto could actually be stronger than Goku SSJFP which was strong enough to dominate Syn Shenron (a feat that he couldn't perform before surpassing his limits with the Z-Team's power) and Goku SSJ Super C-17 saga is strong enough to dominate his opponent during a short moment whereas Majuub (stronger than SSJ3 Goku Baby Vegeta saga) was beaten in a few hits,not to mention that GT Goku base form > Goku SSJ3 Buu saga so i honestly don't think that Vegetto SSJ is as strong as Goku SSJ,actually i don't even see him being at Super Baby Vegeta's level.

I can see Vegetto being a little bit stronger than Gogeta but not THAT much stronger,imo they are equal,Ro Dai Kaioshin only says that the Potara fusion is better because Gokhan PF (potara fusion) would have been much much stronger than Gokhan MF because Gohan would have been forced to lower his power to be on his dad's level (who was much weaker at this point).

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

1)Can we even consider it as an official source ? I mean,i really find it hard to believe that Vegetto SSJ could still be relevant in GT,this anime comics thing just seems as reliable as the GT Perfect Files (meaning that they both come from TOEI and that they obviously contain a lot of bullshit) so i don't know if we can consider his content as an evidence.

While I can't say the same for the anime comics, the GT Perfect Files come from the writers of the series. There's literally no reason to doubt anything from that book.

[Darkprince410]

2) False,Goku only said that Janemba was extremely strong because he forced him to use his SSJ3 form and that he (Janemba) sould be proud of himself for being able to perform such a great feat,and it is very possible that the Fusion Reborn movie takes place in an alternate universe when Gotenks actually defeated Super Buu so Goku was probably making a comparison between Fat Buu and Fat Janemba and if it is the case,then yes,Janemba really had the strongest ki ever felt but i don't remember him saying that in the movie.

Goku's exact line from the movie

This is before he even started fighting Janemba, and had yet to draw him down to Hell to begin fighting him. Given that he says this, yet just a few minutes later completely tears fat Janemba apart with Super Saiya-jin 3, would mean that he excluded himself from the statement.

[Mycophobia]

1)Can we even consider it as an official source ? I mean,i really find it hard to believe that Vegetto SSJ could still be relevant in GT,this anime comics thing just seems as reliable as the GT Perfect Files (meaning that they both come from TOEI and that they obviously contain a lot of bullshit) so i don't know if we can consider his content as an evidence.

While I can't say the same for the anime comics, the GT Perfect Files come from the writers of the series. There's literally no reason to doubt anything from that book.

Well,we can take some informations coming from the guide and consider them as an evidence but i really don't see the gap between Gogeta SSJ4 and Goku SSJ4 being so small.

[Mycophobia]

2) False,Goku only said that Janemba was extremely strong because he forced him to use his SSJ3 form and that he (Janemba) sould be proud of himself for being able to perform such a great feat,and it is very possible that the Fusion Reborn movie takes place in an alternate universe when Gotenks actually defeated Super Buu so Goku was probably making a comparison between Fat Buu and Fat Janemba and if it is the case,then yes,Janemba really had the strongest ki ever felt but i don't remember him saying that in the movie.

Goku's exact line from the movie

This is before he even started fighting Janemba, and had yet to draw him down to Hell to begin fighting him. Given that he says this, yet just a few minutes later completely tears fat Janemba apart with Super Saiya-jin 3, would mean that he excluded himself from the statement.

Oops sorry,so yeah i admit that you're right but what does it prove exactly ? Goku excluded himself from the statement but he didn't for Baby Vegeta who was much stronger than him at the time,the context is not the same because Janemba was clearly weaker than Goku in the movie which wasn't the case for Baby Vegeta who was fooling around against him and still beat him in a few hits at the end.

[Hitiro]

Oops sorry,so yeah i admit that you're right but what does it prove exactly ? Goku excluded himself from the statement but he didn't for Baby Vegeta who was much stronger than him at the time,the context is not the same because Janemba was clearly weaker than Goku in the movie which wasn't the case for Baby Vegeta who was fooling around against him and still beat him in a few hits at the end.

It would prove that Bebi Vegeta may be above Goku but not Vegetto who is an extension of Goku? If Goku excludes himself when talking about Janemba there is no reason for Goku to not exclude another version of himself when he is talking about Janemba.