Are you satisfied with the story of Super so far?

[TheMikado]

^ I think what I'm saying is that the story allows you at least rules for which you can understand why power levels are where they are at after the initial lore is established. iE if the scale of restoring an entire planet and it's inhabitants multiple times makes incredibly powerful wished and those dragons are derived directly from the corresponding strength of those wishes as stated by the writers than that makes sense in their fictional universe.

By contrast Piccolo, Frieza, universe 6 power levels make no sense even within the confines of its own fiction. Disagreeing with the story is completely different than being a terrible incoherent story.

So good examples of power levels which make sense although not explicitly spoken.

SSJ4: we know from previously established rules than SSJ grants a 50x multiplier and that the Oozaru form grants a x10 multiplier. In terms of raw base power SSJ3 grants a x400 boost. Thus in that sense the power level of SSJ4 makes sense by combining two previously known "rules" of the fictional universe to produce something makes sense according to that logic.

Universal Spirit bomb: Goku was forced to do a universal spirit bomb because Syn Shenron was already stronger than any bomb you could produce from Earth alone. If would have been TERRIBLE writing to make it strictly an earth spirit bomb but again GT followed the rules of the established universe.

By contrast Super isn't even following its own rules it set wishing the series. The 6-10-15 /SSB not making the SSJ multiplier work while enraged SSJ Vegeta exceeds SSJ3 Goku power levels. Frieza crazy power boosts, yet Piccolo fighting someone even stronger than Frieza.. Come on that's terrible writing and not even consistent with the rules 1 or two episodes in front or behind them.

[Saturnine]

I think you're overly attached to and depending on what you THINK the rules of the series are. Your decision to cling to the SEG-given multiplier of SSj at 50x is purely arbitrary. Sure it was 50x on Namek, but this number hardly fits anymore starting wih the Android Saga onward. Not to mention there is FPSSj which is as strong as Grade 3, which is already stronger than regular Super Saiyan and no one seems to acknowledge it. SEG also gives 2x over regular Super Saiyan, which arguably makes it look inferior in power to Grade 3, yet it's abundantly clear from the manga that SSj2 is way, way superior. I think you should read the story more carefully and start inferring stuff from it rather than relying on officially given numbers, which are pretty much arbitary.

Not making 50x fit for Super Saiyan to make you happy is the smallest of Super's problems.

[TheMikado]

I think you're overly attached to and depending on what you THINK the rules of the series are. Your decision to cling to the SEG-given multiplier of SSj at 50x is purely arbitrary. Sure it was 50x on Namek, but this number hardly fits anymore starting wih the Android Saga onward. Not to mention there is FPSSj which is as strong as Grade 3, which is already stronger than regular Super Saiyan and no one seems to acknowledge it. SEG also gives 2x over regular Super Saiyan, which arguably makes it look inferior in power to Grade 3, yet it's abundantly clear from the manga that SSj2 is way, way superior. I think you should read the story more carefully and start inferring stuff from it rather than relying on officially given numbers, which are pretty much arbitary.

Not making 50x fit for Super Saiyan to make you happy is the smallest of Super's problems.

No this is base lore, the 50X is the minimum bonus all things being equal. Everyone acknowledges the other forms, the problem is the scaling. Even the 50x scaling was ridiculous but they made it work. When Everyone was getting the SSJ boost in the Cell saga they at least gave an explanation on how Piccolo was able to keep pace and how hard Vegeta trained to gain SSJ. The rules of the universe have been established, like the "Superman doesn't kill rule" or "Batman doesn't use guns". We ALL know what happened when the established lore of these universes were changed and and how the fans felt they misrepresented the characters. Part of good storytelling and world building is creating the fictional rules so you always know how to play the game and find interested ways to work within the confines of those rules.

It's like starting a game of checkers and decided you can jump horizontally once you get backed into a corner. Making new arbitrary rules and then exploiting them doesn't make you a good checker player and neither does recanting established lore to make a plot move forward make you a good writer.

[Saturnine]

Thing is, Super isn't the first time 50x clearly didn't work. Don't put it down on Super.

GT mentioned a 100x boost at one point, and I'm sure most people ignored it rather than calling GT out on it.

[TheMikado]

Thing is, Super isn't the first time 50x clearly didn't work. Don't put it down on Super.

GT mentioned a 100x boost at one point, and I'm sure most people ignored it rather than calling GT out on it.

No the x100 boost of SSJ2 is canon and accurate according to official numbers. At least GT respected previously established lore which is more than Super does.

[Saturnine]

Thing is, Super isn't the first time 50x clearly didn't work. Don't put it down on Super.

GT mentioned a 100x boost at one point, and I'm sure most people ignored it rather than calling GT out on it.

No the x100 boost of SSJ2 is canon and accurate according to official numbers. At least GT respected previously established lore which is more than Super does.

It was referring to regular Super Saiyan, bro. Stop doing this to yourself.

Also, the Ssj multiplier in Z almost certainly decreased over time.

[TheMikado]

Thing is, Super isn't the first time 50x clearly didn't work. Don't put it down on Super.

GT mentioned a 100x boost at one point, and I'm sure most people ignored it rather than calling GT out on it.

No the x100 boost of SSJ2 is canon and accurate according to official numbers. At least GT respected previously established lore which is more than Super does.

It was referring to regular Super Saiyan, bro. Stop doing this to yourself.

Also, the Ssj multiplier in Z almost certainly decreased over time.

Where? Show me these things so at least one of us can "stop". "Bro"

[LowRyder2005]

Super isn't the first time 50x clearly didn't work

Not to mention there is FPSSj which is as strong as Grade 3, which is already stronger than regular Super Saiyan and no one seems to acknowledge it.

Also, the Ssj multiplier in Z almost certainly decreased over time.

Forgive me, you are calling him out on his opinions... but I mostly see opinions here too.
Besides, I feel like I need to point out that the "*50 clearly doesn't work" can only work itself it you accept the 7-10-15 scale, which is again arbitrary - especially since it referred to BOG and not Super, which altered some stuff along the way.

[Saturnine]

Forgive me, you are calling him out on his opinions... but I mostly see opinions here too.
Besides, I feel like I need to point out that the "*50 clearly doesn't work" can only work itself it you accept the 7-10-15 scale, which is again arbitrary - especially since it referred to BOG and not Super, which altered some stuff along the way.

Arbitrary? It's Word of God, it can be arbitrary, but you have to obey! What's more arbitrary is insisting that what works for BoG suddenly doesn't work for Super.

Also what is arbitrary is people insisting that the Kili scale isn't linear, just so they can preserve SSj being 50x all the way into the Buu saga.

[LowRyder2005]

Arbitrary? It's Word of God, it can be arbitrary, but you have to obey! What's more arbitrary is insisting that what works for BoG suddenly doesn't work for Super.

Nope, this is arbitrary. Super is not supposed to be a carbon copy of Battle of Gods and there is already the Super Saiyan/ Base issue at the end (I may go on and start talking about how Battle of Gods seems to apparently follow the manga guidelines more closely, while Super doesn't; see the lack of Gregory in the movie, while he is present in the anime adaptation).

Also what is arbitrary is people insisting that the Kili scale isn't linear, just so they can preserve SSj being 50x all the way into the Buu saga.

Nope, this is arbitrary (*2): insisting that the Kiri scale must be linear when we literally have no idea how the scale is supposed to work in the first place.
The problem is not what's or what isn't Word of God, the problem is that you are mixing your opinions with Word of God and elevating everything to "Word of God status".

[Saturnine]

Also what is arbitrary is people insisting that the Kili scale isn't linear, just so they can preserve SSj being 50x all the way into the Buu saga.

Nope, this is arbitrary (*2): insisting that the Kiri scale must be linear when we literally have no idea how the scale is supposed to work in the first place.
The problem is not what's or what isn't Word of God, the problem is that you are mixing your opinions with Word of God and elevating everything to "Word of God status".[/quote]

Well, simpler solutions are usually more likely to be true, particularly in a shonen manga. It requires overthinking things to even assume that Kili is anything other than linear. And why people are prone to do that? Well because Kili being linear fucks with SSj being 50x.

I guess this debate will never end until Toriyama himself settles it, or something.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, simpler solutions are usually more likely to be true, particularly in a shonen manga. It requires overthinking things to even assume that Kili is anything other than linear. And why people are prone to do that? Well because Kili being linear fucks with SSj being 50x.

I guess this debate will never end until Toriyama himself settles it, or something.

Yes, I can see your point. I wasn't arguing against the Occam's Razor, it's usually my preferred way to go, just the fact that you were apparently proposing one interpretation as feasible, while the other wasn't supposed to work (as in "the *50 can't work in the Buu Saga", while it's just "it's more difficult to make it work here since you'd have create one or more conjectures").

I can see why there could be some people who won't accept the multipliers, though. There is, in fact, enough leeway - in the way it's presented in the manga, I mean - to disregard it altogether if it doesn't work with you after the Namek saga.

[Saturnine]

Well, simpler solutions are usually more likely to be true, particularly in a shonen manga. It requires overthinking things to even assume that Kili is anything other than linear. And why people are prone to do that? Well because Kili being linear fucks with SSj being 50x.

I guess this debate will never end until Toriyama himself settles it, or something.

Yes, I can see your point. I wasn't arguing against the Occam's Razor, it's usually my preferred way to go, just the fact that you were apparently proposing one interpretation as feasible, while the other wasn't supposed to work (as in "the *50 can't work in the Buu Saga", while it's just "it's more difficult to make it work here since you'd have create one or more conjectures").

I can see why there could be some people who won't accept the multipliers, though. There is, in fact, enough leeway - in the way it's presented in the manga, I mean - to disregard it altogether if it doesn't work with you after the Namek saga.

Of course you're right. And this fact in my opinion greatly softens the supposed discrepancies and ignoring of established rules in Super. In fact I cannot fathom how one could insist that GT is better than Super in that regard without a clear bias in favor of GT. Super does a zillion things more faithfully to the original material than GT does in a myriad of ways. Hell, the writers couldn't even keep it together for the very first episode where they had Dende forget about his healing powers and suggest looking for a medkit. Embarrassing. Of course you could rationalize even that - just like everything else - by saying that this scene was supposed to be humorous or something. There is no limit to people's creativity in that regard

But still, I guess the defenders of GT on this board aren't as bad as the ones on Dragon Ball Wiki. I once remember adding to their "list of GT inconsistencies" list (which consists of like 6 positions, lol) a position about Kibito Kai using Yardrat Instant Transmission in the show instead of the Kaioshin teleportation technique. My edit got reverted because according to the editor "this is not an inconsistency, it's not a big deal for a Kaioshin to learn an Android saga level technique". I don't even know where to start...

[TheMikado]

Well, simpler solutions are usually more likely to be true, particularly in a shonen manga. It requires overthinking things to even assume that Kili is anything other than linear. And why people are prone to do that? Well because Kili being linear fucks with SSj being 50x.

I guess this debate will never end until Toriyama himself settles it, or something.

Yes, I can see your point. I wasn't arguing against the Occam's Razor, it's usually my preferred way to go, just the fact that you were apparently proposing one interpretation as feasible, while the other wasn't supposed to work (as in "the *50 can't work in the Buu Saga", while it's just "it's more difficult to make it work here since you'd have create one or more conjectures").

I can see why there could be some people who won't accept the multipliers, though. There is, in fact, enough leeway - in the way it's presented in the manga, I mean - to disregard it altogether if it doesn't work with you after the Namek saga.

Of course you're right. And this fact in my opinion greatly softens the supposed discrepancies and ignoring of established rules in Super. In fact I cannot fathom how one could insist that GT is better than Super in that regard without a clear bias in favor of GT. Super does a zillion things more faithfully to the original material than GT does in a myriad of ways. Hell, the writers couldn't even keep it together for the very first episode where they had Dende forget about his healing powers and suggest looking for a medkit. Embarrassing. Of course you could rationalize even that - just like everything else - by saying that this scene was supposed to be humorous or something. There is no limit to people's creativity in that regard

But still, I guess the defenders of GT on this board aren't as bad as the ones on Dragon Ball Wiki. I once remember adding to their "list of GT inconsistencies" list (which consists of like 6 positions, lol) a position about Kibito Kai using Yardrat Instant Transmission in the show instead of the Kaioshin teleportation technique. My edit got reverted because according to the editor "this is not an inconsistency, it's not a big deal for a Kaioshin to learn an Android saga level technique". I don't even know where to start...

I'd love to hear more about the inconsistencies as you claim, but I will say considering his position it wouldn't be unusual for him to know it. That doesn't excuse it but it's an easily overlooked flub that really has no bearing on the story. Right now the issue isn't the multipliers themselves, it's that it affects the narrative and power levels. Like this is the first time post Beginning of Z we haven't been able to get a solid grasp of each characters capability. It lessens the drama because we have no idea if they're in over their heads or not. Usually in each saga of Z we knew the characters were showing courage in facing overwhelming odds. Now we don't know they're lunchmeat until they are already pounded into the dirt.

A la Gohan and Piccolo in RoF. I think every thought they might put up a decent fight especially against Freeza scrubs. Similar to Saiyan saga saibamen. It's not about specific trivial is about respecting the spirit of the characters and how hard they've worked to ascend past scrub tier. Super basically said to all their years of training we can basically beat any other race or person into a pulp for 4 months and have them come out topping SSJ3 levels. It's almost like nothing they did in DB or Z for all these years mattered since the enemies gained more power with almost little to no time or effort.

[Danfun64]

the writers couldn't even keep it together for the very first episode where they had Dende forget about his healing powers and suggest looking for a medkit. Embarrassing. Of course you could rationalize even that - just like everything else - by saying that this scene was supposed to be humorous or something. There is no limit to people's creativity in that regard

I thought Dende wanting a medkit was a Funi invention, as I don't remember reading about it in the subs.

[TheMikado]

the writers couldn't even keep it together for the very first episode where they had Dende forget about his healing powers and suggest looking for a medkit. Embarrassing. Of course you could rationalize even that - just like everything else - by saying that this scene was supposed to be humorous or something. There is no limit to people's creativity in that regard

I thought Dende wanting a medkit was a Funi invention, as I don't remember reading about it in the subs.

That's correct, and people criticize me for using dub versions, geez

[FoolsGil]

Man, it's like the powers that be is doing everything to destroy our expectations.Yes, when this tournament started, there was hype, but only for some really good fights, and an expansion of characters that have been ignored.

This tournament makes me want to cry in frustration. Team U6 outside of Hit is so weak, Goku and Vegeta could have one shotted everyone by going SSJ2. Piccolo and Buu were sidelined unceremoniously when really they could have dealt with Magetta and Botamo if their levels were going to be so low. Why is it that Toei is going down this path?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

By contrast Piccolo, Frieza, universe 6 power levels make no sense even within the confines of its own fiction. Disagreeing with the story is completely different than being a terrible incoherent story.

Agreed, the Super arc is really broken in power levels due to the plot. Most people will argue about how strong they think U6 characters are but will follow the understandable bias that dictates: because we are in the god tier, we expect all characters fought god tier Goku & Vegeta to be god tier or above that by now. Yet nobody in the tournament even matches a base SSJ. you could say that their SSJs are stronger than they were in the earlier arcs, but according to Whis and Toriyama, no they aren't. The forms themselves do not get stronger with the character. They are set. Which apparently is why Cabbe who is a fresh, lanky-body SSJ can fight on par with or damage post-Buu SSJ Vegeta if that makes any sense.

Man, it's like the powers that be is doing everything to destroy our expectations.Yes, when this tournament started, there was hype, but only for some really good fights, and an expansion of characters that have been ignored.This tournament makes me want to cry in frustration. Team U6 outside of Hit is so weak, Goku and Vegeta could have one shotted everyone by going SSJ2. Piccolo and Buu were sidelined unceremoniously when really they could have dealt with Magetta and Botamo if their levels were going to be so low. Why is it that Toei is going down this path?

Because this is the "god" saga, you will have people just assert they're all god level characters because thats how strong the main characters are. People won't accept they're all weaklings because they aren't supposed to be by the structured implications of the series prior to this. I can't blame them either because Buu himself could have swept everyone but Hit. Why they aren't bothering with SS2 is even more underwhelming because we know that they can and therefore all their struggles in the fights are just from really bad writing if all the new characters are that much weaker or they're just throwing away everything prior just for plot.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I ignore the daizenshuu and all multipliers because they don't seam consistant. each form multipies by 1.2 I pretend or something. because super vegito doesn't seam like 50x stronger then vegito's base in the anime for example. Not worth stressing over.

[namekiansaiyan]

I ignore the daizenshuu and all multipliers because they don't seam consistant. each form multipies by 1.2 I pretend or something. because super vegito doesn't seam like 50x stronger then vegito's base in the anime for example. Not worth stressing over.

I don't use a multiplier I just say someone is stronger than someone else or a transformation is stronger than another transformation.