Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I disagree. It's made clear in various mainline media that the Saiyans distrust Freeza, which - combined with the Super Saiyan legends - is partly the reason Freeza himself fears the possibility of a successful uprising. To have him then gather the entirety of their race on Planet Vegeta for unstated reasons is suspicious activity given the circumstances, so it's a natural reaction for an experienced warrior like Bardock to have. He's just putting two and two together.

And I don't see how what's said in the latest chapter does anything but help Bardock put the pieces together. Like I said, he doesn't learn the truth. First of all, he has no reason to believe that his enemies aren't just tauting him. On top of that, he had just found out that the Heeters were already planning to betray Frieza, so they weren't exactly reliable guys. Not to mention this all takes place years before Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta. Bardock intensifying the suspicions and observing Freeza's actions more closely from there is a much better justification and doesn't take anything away from the fact that he's a Saiyan who thinks a little more than others. It feels much better than Bardock being the only Saiyan on the entire planet to take such drastic actions out of some suspicions (that already existed before, by the way), almost like a premonition of what was going to happen (the line "I feel like death is on the way" gives me these exactly feelings)

[Cipher]

Oh, on this whole conversation: I like that he got some hints from the Heatas. They don't spell it out, but sowing some doubts to come back to when they get the mass return order years later helps make Bardock feel like more of an average guy than somehow being the one Saiyan canny enough to suspect anything or take action does.

Plus, he gets those hints because a character-based whim helped put him in the right spot at the right time. I do prefer it over just being the smartest guy in the room.

[Mr Baggins]

Toyotaro may be behind the inclusion here, but Toriyama of all people definitely isn't above it.

I agree, but it was never my intention to criticize Bardock's inclusion in itself. My post was a response to the idea proposed by batistabus (and maybe others) that Toriyama had some major involvement in this chapter specifically. I cited Toyotaro's own favoritism and decision to include him in the first place, combined with how he's actually handled this month, as a good reason to doubt that. It's all speculative, of course, but whether something feels in keeping with Dragon Ball or not is a pretty big deal to me.

Toriyama consistently wrote a concise story around Bardock. This chapter is 45 pages of Bardock having a series of flashy "moments"; stuff we largely knew about that did little to nothing to progress the arc at large. That's the difference.

But while we're on this topic: I do think there's a reasonable argument to be made that Bardock's appearances in mainline canon should have lived and died with Broly. He was written most effectively and compellingly there.

[TobyS]

Is it fanfic-territory to use Bardock at all?

Bardock is essentially a fanfiction OC so I think any inclusion of the character past his introduction will feel shoehorned. It's not so much the inclusion of Bardock that feels un-DB, it's the whole idea of dedicating an entire 45-page chapter to one massive flashback about the protagonist's father. This is something you'd see in Naruto or One Piece. Dragon Ball has never really dwelt on the past and flashbacks were used sparingly as a reminder to the audience or quick exposition, not as page filler or as a key plot beat. Dragon Ball especially never made a big deal out of Goku's heritage which was always unremarkable. I get what Toyotaro is going for here but the need to make everything and everyone special and unique is misplaced in this kind of series.

I'm glad they are doing different stories than Toriyama would do solo, otherwise it would be the same but worse. And with Toriyamas involvements those stories still feel like DB.

[kemuri07]

The thing about One Piece is all of that stuff related to Luffy's dad is peppered throughout the story. Like the first appearance of Dragon happens so early in the manga, and stuff like the D. name and the relationship with Gol D. Rogers makes up a huge bulk of One Piece.

That's not what Dragon Ball does. I mean, Toriyama is infamous for essentially admitting that he makes a lot of this stuff up as he goes along. Oda appears to share that same logic, but its clear that there is a method to his madness. and Oda regularly sets things up years in advance before he makes good on them. The problem with Bardock is that it comes from fucking nowhere and has no real bearing on anything that is going on save for a clear deus ex machina moment that will lead to Goku gaining a new ability.

[Zillamon51]

I think I'm overall far more forgiving of the manga than most who care to post about it. I've had few problems with the Moro or Granolah arcs before now.

- So, Goku's life has been blessed by a dragon? I hate this idea. Vegeta is the high-born one, a prince and an elite warrior, yet Goku surpassed him. That's one of the main themes of DBZ!

- Bardock has been forwarned about Frieza's plans for the Saiyans? I don't like that instead of a sneaking suspicion, he knows.

- Gas in base considers Bardock an annoyance, not a grave threat. He transforms twice, utterly trashes Bardock, but Bardock leapfrogs him in power, because determination? Just wanting to win? Did Goku really just not want it bad enough against Frieza? Vegeta against Buu? Trunks against the androids? Nonsense. I guess everyone just has Broly's insta-boost powers now.

- How much time between this chapter, and the Broly movie prologue? Bardock does a full hero turn here. This only makes sense if planet Cereal was his final mission before being called home. It would make no sense for him to go back to being a murderous bastard again for a brief time.

Ugh. So much retconning, all for the worse. Do not want.

[fleahop]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but this chapter leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The only panels I truly enjoyed were those featuring Elec.

Similar to Zillamon51 I've been pretty forgiving of the manga and have generally given it the benefit of the doubt to see how things are played out. This chapter has decisively altered my opinion of the arc. I'll need time and further chapters to truly figure out what's so wrong here.

[Tai Lung]

ok a chapter good but ....

-On the one hand I love Bardock's personality in this battle...at least the last part just focusing on winning until the end...apart from following the logic of the TOP Anime a character can break his limits avoiding fatigue
-On the other hand, the manga is moving away more and more from the "canon" even from the movies...
in the movie and also part of the manga the bardock thing was a suspicion... that frieza plans destroy his planet that was obvious since frieza assumed power... here they are saying it directly to his face... bardock was literally able to save goku and raditz... . But he did not

there is also a plot hole regarding the dragon... porunga didn't ask vegeta for permission when he teleported him to earth or gohan... besides that dragon should be more powerful than bardock to give such power to gas and granolah

By the way, if the idea is that Bardock's wish came true and it wasn't a sarcastic comment, then yes... that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Miracles]

I know all my fellow Dragonball fans noticed the stark difference between Bardock and our current protagonists.

How Bardock told Gas that he is not fighting to atone for the sins of the Saiyans. Vegeta does this, carrying the weight of the sins of his race on his shoulders. Even claimed it was the Saiyans fate to be destroyed. Hence why he failed against Granolah.

How Bardock told Gas he isn't fighting for revenge. This is Granolah's sole reason for living. It brought him only more harm.

Notice how Bardock resisted the talk of "fated" destiny of the Saiyans destruction and ultimately his defeat. Beerus told Vegeta that it was not fate that destroyed planet Vegeta but him giving the order that sent Bardock and friends to Hell.

Bardock resisted the circumstances, he overcame and didn't accept the status quo. He didn't run like Goku/Vegeta did against Broly. Bardock didn't tell Gas that he needs to leave the planet since he had no reason to fight him like Goku did in chapter 81. Bardock showed something different in my eyes.

Still I don't know how this will connect with ramping Goku up in Ultra Instinct.

[Mr Baggins]

Still I don't know how this will connect with ramping Goku up in Ultra Instinct.

My assumption is that this will result in a more focused/determined Ultra Instinct, which I guess is fine. Dunno about any visual changes. Maybe his hair will go from gray to white, or something.

I am still thoroughly against the idea of an "emotional" UI. I have so many problems with that on so many levels.

[Tai Lung]

This chapter just got me thinking of something. If someone does a wish for someone else's benefit, does the dragon always have to get permission from that person? Has that always been a thing? I remember something similar happening during the end of the Freeza arc.

If that's always been the case, then Broly should've been annhilated by Gogeta's Kamehameha at the end of the last film cause there was no way Shenron had the time to ask for Broly's permission to be sent back to Vampa during that split-second moment.

Perhaps Shenron in that instant found that Broly felt like not being killed and was willing to accept having his live saved by any means.

It also happened with vegeta and gohan in Namek, he didn't ask for permission

[Yuji]

My issue is that Goku is already determined and passionate when using Sign, which is thought to be the incomplete form. I guess what goes around comes around? He has to learn to let his emotions go to master UI in the first place but he can afterwards recover them and reincoportae them into his fighting style?

[capsulecorp]

I liked this chapter although I think I was a little less impressed by the action than some other readers.

I think people are making way too big a deal about the wish, and the teleportation behavior. Even if the wish does turn out to be about Goku and Raditz, it doesn't invalidate anything about Goku's achievements, at least no more so than all the favors that other deities are constantly granting him. The guardian of earth, the Kais, even the angels all have their eyes on Goku... now, maybe it turns out the dragons have as well.

As for the teleport, remember that the dragons have personalities. This one was created by Monaito, who seems especially kind and generous, it shouldn't be a surprise that his dragon is particularly polite.

[Mr Baggins]

My issue is that Goku is already determined and passionate when using Sign, which is thought to be the incomplete form.

By "determined", I suppose I was referring to more focus and attentiveness in his already-zen state. Resolve, I guess. It's nothing all that fascinating, but at least it's not terribly offensive.

If it's something like being more openly passionate, that's a complete no-go for me. That ties into an emotional UI and all the issues I have with it. I shudder to think of the possibility, and sadly, it's quite possible.

[OLKv3]

Bardock's wish was just for Goku to hear. Remember they're listening to this entire fight, and the recording ends when the chapter ends.

[Tai Lung]

now i'm dying of laughter people criticize the TOP Anime saying that the progression of the saiyans in battle was bad writing but now that bardock does it in the manga it's coherent ..... lol

anyway it is something that toriyama has been adding since BofG or if you also maybe Namek arc

[Koitsukai]

I think the improvement could be Goku being more of himself while using UI.
As of now, he is more like worried about staying in the zone, he is really focused, serious, he is actively doing something to mantain it, it's not second nature to him, even if he can turn it on and off as he likes. With the eyes more on the technique than on the prize itself (the fight, the enemy whatever).

He's sort of robotic and seems much more tense than usual to me. I guess he is acting the part and needs to be the part.

[Hugo Boss]

I personally don’t see a hint that Goku will extract power from his emotions to use ultra instinct better, but rather remember the determination he usually had when he was fighting for his or others’ sake. It isn’t necessarily an emotional beat, but rather being in peace with himself and seek his objective, victory.

[emperior]

Bardock's wish was just for Goku to hear. Remember they're listening to this entire fight, and the recording ends when the chapter ends.

Right. Maybe that’s just it, as it doesn’t feel like Monaito did the wish at all.

As for the Ultra Instinct talks - the arc was clearly going towards Goku mastering it without having to transform (so no more silver hair it seems). Goku was having trouble doing that, as evidenced on the first scenes on Cereal where he got hit by Granolah’s shots.

I guess that Goku will take the lesson from his father of being fully focused on the fight, leaving aside every other thoughts. And this will also make him more Saiyan-like, pushing him more and more beyond his limits, thus being a catalyst in fully mastering Ultra Instinct without the stamina drawbacks. Likely, him regaining his memories will also play a part in this.

I expect Goku to beat Gas while in his base form - coupled with his Ultra Instinct mastery which will no longer need him to transform. He may also get an aura similar to Bardock’s. This would allow Toyotaro to make lots of parallels between the two, with Gas also noticing it in-universe.

[Cipher]

I know all my fellow Dragonball fans noticed the stark difference between Bardock and our current protagonists.

How Bardock told Gas that he is not fighting to atone for the sins of the Saiyans. Vegeta does this, carrying the weight of the sins of his race on his shoulders. Even claimed it was the Saiyans fate to be destroyed. Hence why he failed against Granolah.

How Bardock told Gas he isn't fighting for revenge. This is Granolah's sole reason for living. It brought him only more harm.

Notice how Bardock resisted the talk of "fated" destiny of the Saiyans destruction and ultimately his defeat. Beerus told Vegeta that it was not fate that destroyed planet Vegeta but him giving the order that sent Bardock and friends to Hell.

I actually hadn't noticed this, but you're right! Gas does rattle off both Granolah and Vegeta's current motivations, only to have Bardock reject them.

As for the Ultra Instinct talks - the arc was clearly going towards Goku mastering it without having to transform (so no more silver hair it seems).

I expect Goku to beat Gas while in his base form - coupled with his Ultra Instinct mastery which will no longer need him to transform. He may also get an aura similar to Bardock’s. This would allow Toyotaro to make lots of parallels between the two, with Gas also noticing it in-universe.

I'm way down for a shake-up like reducing the number of forms, but I feel like that only flies if the next one is the last storyline. Multiple forms are too convenient as relative-strength cues in continued serialization to ditch--which I think is a big part of why they came back in Super after "F" seeming to want to do away with everything but base and Blue. You can get away with untouchable base Goku for an arc, but I don't know about two or three.