Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The Super 17 fight was just Goku spamming Ki blasts, something he never did.

Goku was REALLY stupid here. He wasted his time powering up Super 17 for no reason. He never spammed his Ki blasts like that, only against the one opponent who was immune to them

They clearly didn't have anyone who could animate an actual hand to hand fight, so it was the best thing they could come up with.

I think it’s rather fine to consider Daima, Super, GT, Neko Majin as different branches of the original manga that could happen. Basically, the manga is the “main story” which can branch out to different sequels, and some of those sequels can branch out even further.

THANK YOU!!!

I honestly don't know why this is so hard for fans to accept. Not everything has to line up perfectly with everything. We can have a sequel series in GT that sets out to provide a definitive end to the story, we can have a limited 20 episode series that provides closure to the Buu arc, we can have Super that explores these different universes, etc... If someone has an idea that line sup with everything, then great. If said idea doesn't line up with anything but is still good on its own, then that's great too.

[johnboy1]

Storyline canon (different timelines)
Within the franchise, different storylines connect to form coherent timelines:
1. The main manga timeline (Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super manga by Toriyama & Toyotarou).
2. The main anime timeline (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super anime, including filler and adaptation differences). Overseen by Toriyama.
3. Standalone works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Heroes, and older movies that don’t align with the main storyline.

I see what you're trying to do, but I'd say there are four "prominent" continuities. These four timelines, encompassing the works that have stood as the primary face of the Dragon Ball IP at the time of their production, I give in rough chronological order below:


Manga (or THE canon timeline, if only one must be supreme)

• Jaco (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (first ~517 chapters + Trunks chapter)
  2008 Jump special manga (2 chapters)
  Super manga (first ~4 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' manga (3 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' movie (last half hour or so)*
  Super manga (next ~38 chapters)
  Broly movie
  Super manga (next ~62 chapters)
  [Whatever comes next with Super]
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (final ~2 chapters)

Old Anime (original Z and GT)**

• Bardock special
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Z movie 1 [it doesn't fit, but it kinda has to]
  Z anime (first 118 episodes)
  Trunks special
  Z anime (last 173 episodes)
  GT (64 episodes)
  GT special

New Anime (Kai and Super)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  2008 Jump special
  Super anime (131 episodes)
  [Adaptations of the two Super films and/or the remaining manga? Only time will tell...]
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

Daima (exactly what it says on the tin)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  Daima (20 episodes)
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

In addition are a bunch of "micro-continuities" formed by spin-off products and various movies.

*Resurrection 'F' is in an odd spot with its manga adaptation being incomplete, cutting off right before the big transformation reveals and telling the reader to go see the movie. So the last act of the film has to be awkwardly shoved in at this point.

**There are arguments to be made about whether one or more additional Z movies (as well as Episode of Bardock) take place in this timeline, but I don't feel like sitting here and litigating each case.

[fadeddreams5]

There's another plot hole at the very last scene nobody mentions. Bulma found a way to de-age her skin 10 years, and we see her use the dragon balls for cosmetics a lot lately too. However, in EoZ, Goku himself points out that she's aged a lot, and it's claimed she hadn't seen Goku for 5 years, which you know won't be true in Super.

This has a potential easy fix, the de-age skin bugs turn out to be a scam.

True, though she also uses the dragon balls selfishly for this. Lol. Just hard to believe she would let herself age at all after all this new content.

[IntangibleFancy]

What do you guys think we're getting after Daima? And how long do you think this drought will last?

[JulieYBM]

What do you guys think we're getting after Daima? And how long do you think this drought will last?

Within the next five years: more DBS manga and a new movie. By either 2029 or 2034, we'll get a new animated adaption of the 1984 manga with a new voice cast.

[jda95]

(Coming out of a 10 year hibernation from this site to comment....)

Daima definitely had ups and downs but overall I'm glad it was short, sweet, and made a mark on the franchise. A """""canon""""" SSJ4 is something that would have been unimaginable since 1996, and I'm sure it's going to be remembered throughout the next few defcades or however long this franchise chugs along.

I didn't think I emotionally connected too much with Daima, but the ending hit me pretty hard - easy to tear up realizing the end of this slice of Goku's journey is the last thing Toriyama had his hands on.

[Scsigs]

Exactly. Of course, Dragon Ball has a canon. Actually, it even exists on two different levels.

Overarching canon (established collection of works by the author Shueisha)
This includes everything officially approved and published by Shueisha.
Whether it's the manga, anime, movies, spin-offs, or games, they are all part of the franchise and fall under Shueisha's ownership.
From a legal and copyright standpoint, everything is "official Dragon Ball."

Storyline canon (different timelines)
Within the franchise, different storylines connect to form coherent timelines:
1. The main manga timeline (Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super manga by Toriyama & Toyotarou).
2. The main anime timeline (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super anime, including filler and adaptation differences). Overseen by Toriyama.
3. Standalone works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Heroes, and older movies that don’t align with the main storyline.

The Super anime was intended as a sequel to the manga just like the Super manga was, not a sequel to the older animes. That's GT.
This is what's currently the thing.
1. Main timeline (Dragon Ball manga & Super, whether it's the show or manga, possibly also Kai, minus any filler left in that breaks continuity like the Hell filler scenes in TFC).
2. Anime timeline (DB, Z, GT, & all associated TV specials).
3. Older movie timelines.
4. Video game timelines.

What do you guys think we're getting after Daima? And how long do you think this drought will last?

Within the next five years: more DBS manga and a new movie. By either 2029 or 2034, we'll get a new animated adaption of the 1984 manga with a new voice cast.

Will we get more stuff with the Super manga? Yes, since Toyotaro's already put out new chapters of the next arc.
2029? I doubt it's gonna take 4 years. I can see the latest being 2028, but I think they'll shoot for either next year, or 2027 at the earliest. They may also do another series to adapt the remaining arcs of the Super manga, which is what a lot of people are hoping they'll do, to give people more content in the meantime.
A new adaptation of the manga? Meh. I'd like to see it, but I doubt it. They gave us Kai & they don't seem too interested in revisiting the older content from before the Saiyan Arc because they don't consider it "marketable."
A new voice cast? Unless Masako Nozawa dies, I don't see this happening.

[ZeroNeonix]

I think I'm actually starting to warm up to this finale. I was hoping it would make up for all the mixed-bag writing that came before it, and it didn't. As a conclusion, though, it works. They wrapped up all the loose threads, had some good gags, and the animation was even better than usual.

I just wish the series put as much care into the writing as it did the animation. It left a lot to be desired. Part of me wants a season 2, mostly so we can see those damn fusion bugs actually get used.

Like, seriously. Why wasn't the possibility of fusion even discussed? Sure, they lost the bugs, but they still have Shin's Potara. We could have gotten Vegito, with that new Super Saiyan 4 design. Even if Goku and Vegeta decided they didn't need fusion after being made adults, that would have been something.

Goku and Vegeta have been strangely inconsistent with their attitudes towards cooperation and fusion. Generally, they fight one-on-one, and they refused to fuse to fight Kid Buu, because they want to be "fair." But they have no problems using fusion against Broly, and they all team up against Gomah, so it seems like they're willing to make exceptions for REALLY big threats they have no hope of handling alone. But if Goku was willing to plan a sneak attack with Piccolo, why not fuse?

Eh, whatever.

If we got a season 2, with Toriyama being gone, it would probably lack the characters and humor that Toriyama specialized in, so it probably wouldn't improve. But I guess it says something that I find myself wanting more.

Part of me wants to see Roshi sneak into Bulma's stash of bugs, and eat a handful of them. Then after glowing for a bit, he looks...the same, because he's impossibly old. One-hundred years of de-aging doesn't make a bit of difference.

A second season could focus on Piccolo too, with the main villain being an evil Namekian, who's looking to take over the demon realm.

[JulieYBM]

Exactly. Of course, Dragon Ball has a canon. Actually, it even exists on two different levels.

Overarching canon (established collection of works by the author Shueisha)
This includes everything officially approved and published by Shueisha.
Whether it's the manga, anime, movies, spin-offs, or games, they are all part of the franchise and fall under Shueisha's ownership.
From a legal and copyright standpoint, everything is "official Dragon Ball."

Storyline canon (different timelines)
Within the franchise, different storylines connect to form coherent timelines:
1. The main manga timeline (Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super manga by Toriyama & Toyotarou).
2. The main anime timeline (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super anime, including filler and adaptation differences). Overseen by Toriyama.
3. Standalone works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Heroes, and older movies that don’t align with the main storyline.

The Super anime was intended as a sequel to the manga just like the Super manga was, not a sequel to the older animes. That's GT.
This is what's currently the thing.
1. Main timeline (Dragon Ball manga & Super, whether it's the show or manga, possibly also Kai, minus any filler left in that breaks continuity like the Hell filler scenes in TFC).
2. Anime timeline (DB, Z, GT, & all associated TV specials).
3. Older movie timelines.
4. Video game timelines.

What do you guys think we're getting after Daima? And how long do you think this drought will last?

Within the next five years: more DBS manga and a new movie. By either 2029 or 2034, we'll get a new animated adaption of the 1984 manga with a new voice cast.

Will we get more stuff with the Super manga? Yes, since Toyotaro's already put out new chapters of the next arc.
2029? I doubt it's gonna take 4 years. I can see the latest being 2028, but I think they'll shoot for either next year, or 2027 at the earliest. They may also do another series to adapt the remaining arcs of the Super manga, which is what a lot of people are hoping they'll do, to give people more content in the meantime.
A new adaptation of the manga? Meh. I'd like to see it, but I doubt it. They gave us Kai & they don't seem too interested in revisiting the older content from before the Saiyan Arc because they don't consider it "marketable."
A new voice cast? Unless Masako Nozawa dies, I don't see this happening.

I used the word 'within' specifically to give wiggle room. I sincerely doubt there will be no new chapters of the Super manga or a new film by 2029, the next anniversary.

If they want to adapt the manga arcs, I suspect that they'll do those as films and then re-edit those into a season of television, ala Kimetsu no Yaiba.

A new voice cast is inevitable, which is why I proposed 2034, the manga's fiftieth anniversary. It's a nice, clean break.

[emperior]

I’m curious, aside from maybe the fusion bugs, what would you say went unexplained but was important?

Well, a few things.

What exactly is Super Saiyan 4? If Goku already knew how to do it, what did Neva actually do? If not, was he training to create some new form, but then Neva's intervention actually made it happen and before that he couldn't? How do Kibito and Nahare refuse? Why did nobody think to use any of these abilities during Battle of Gods? What happened to the fusion bugs?

All are ultimately trivial, I should state. I can also appreciate an ending that just leaves all this up in the air lol.

Honestly I feel like Toriyama originally intended for Goku to unveil Super Saiyan 4 only as an adult (hence why he also throws his shirt up in the air), and they convinced him to also give it to his kid self. Hopefully this was not something they added themselves later.

There’s basically no dialogue involved in Goku’s Super Saiyan 4 form when unlocked by Neva, and then everyone is surprised once he reveals it as an adult.

My idea is that Goku knew he could evolve into it, but never tried it before. Surely when he went Super Saiyan 3 offscreen for the first time something similar must have happened.

As for Kibito and Nahare, they just don’t refuse, Battle of Gods no longer happens (not in the way we know it, at the very least. And there’s 3 versions of it, so that’s for the best).

Maybe the fusion bugs were just a red herring for people to think fusion would have been the answer, but instead it was SS4. Or maybe Toriyama wanted to introduce the concept to use it in a future story.

[Scsigs]

I used the word 'within' specifically to give wiggle room. I sincerely doubt there will be no new chapters of the Super manga or a new film by 2029, the next anniversary.

If they want to adapt the manga arcs, I suspect that they'll do those as films and then re-edit those into a season of television, ala Kimetsu no Yaiba.

A new voice cast is inevitable, which is why I proposed 2034, the manga's fiftieth anniversary. It's a nice, clean break.

I mean, there are already new manga chapters.
I was just saying that I assume Toei are gonna keep up their release schedule of every 2-3 years. Although, it's also maybe a bit premature to say either way considering that they need to find a good story to tell with the characters & hopefully pick up on things Toriyama was seeding with them. Perhaps also find a way to make Daima compatible with Super. Who knows?

Considering how they did Super where they adapted the 2 movies before it into the first 2 arcs, I think it's more likely that they'll just do them as arcs for a continuation of Super. I hope they'd also restore the cut scenes from Broly as part of the show.

I mean, at some point I fully expect the Japanese cast to slowly be replaced. They're getting up there in age & the moment Masako Nozawa finally kicks the bucket, they're gonna have a hell of a time replacing her, & I'm pretty sure she's gonna keep playing Goku until she actually does die.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Part of me wants a season 2, mostly so we can see those damn fusion bugs actually get used. Like, seriously. Why wasn't the possibility of fusion even discussed?

I really hope we don't get a season 2 out of respect for Toriyama. He put his all into this and the chances of them doing the same is slim to none. We'd just end up with a generic follow up that does everything by the books. As for the bugs, I think they were introduced as a way to throw people off the possibility of Ssj4 becoming a thing. Considering how both Goku and Vegeta had little trouble handing Gomah, the need for fusion was never truly there. He could regenerate, but he was never a match for them in combat.

[Basaku]

THANK YOU!!!

I honestly don't know why this is so hard for fans to accept. Not everything has to line up perfectly with everything. We can have a sequel series in GT that sets out to provide a definitive end to the story, we can have a limited 20 episode series that provides closure to the Buu arc, we can have Super that explores these different universes, etc... If someone has an idea that line sup with everything, then great. If said idea doesn't line up with anything but is still good on its own, then that's great too.

Whaddya mean you don't underatand why is it hard for fans who care about storytelling to accept? It's obvious - because nothing matters then. We're not talking "sometimes something doesn't line up" situation, we already had that before with Xeno/Heroes, other games, movies (og DB movies in particular).

But there was still the main contnuity to drive the franchise and its overarching story and characters forward and that's what people fell in love in

Now we removed the time progression being essentially stuck forever in the same 10 year era with the same (mostly nonexistant) character arcs and on top of that you want it all to be completly disconnected between each other too? What is the point then?

If NOTHING lines up anymore then what's the point of telling any story ever if none will matter at all in the next "product"? Why give Vegeta Ultra Ego or SSJ3 if the next DB anime will just make Vegeta a pink bunny who can't transform and hates baths with Bulma?

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If NOTHING lines up anymore then what's the point of telling any story ever if none will matter at all in the next "product"?

I didn't say nothing should line up, but rather it shouldn't be a big deal if every now and then something is its own isolated thing. Super's timeline has been going on since 2008. That part of the franchise has an OVA (2008 Tarble), 4 movies, a 131 anime series, and a 104 chapter manga. What's so bad about a 20 episode series being its own thing after being stuck with the same thing for so long ?

[Sani007]

If NOTHING lines up anymore then what's the point of telling any story ever if none will matter at all in the next "product"?

I didn't say nothing should line up, but rather it shouldn't be a big deal if every now and then something is its own isolated thing. Super's timeline has been going on since 2008. That part of the franchise has an OVA (2008 Tarble), 4 movies, a 131 anime series, and a 104 chapter manga. What's so bad about a 20 episode series being its own thing after being stuck with the same thing for so long ?

I would even include Jaco the Galactic Patrolman in this as well.

[ZeroNeonix]

Part of me wants a season 2, mostly so we can see those damn fusion bugs actually get used. Like, seriously. Why wasn't the possibility of fusion even discussed?

I really hope we don't get a season 2 out of respect for Toriyama. He put his all into this and the chances of them doing the same is slim to none. We'd just end up with a generic follow up that does everything by the books. As for the bugs, I think they were introduced as a way to throw people off the possibility of Ssj4 becoming a thing. Considering how both Goku and Vegeta had little trouble handing Gomah, the need for fusion was never truly there. He could regenerate, but he was never a match for them in combat.

Yeah, I suggested that the bugs were a red herring before, but now that I know they were making everything up while in the middle of animating it, I think it's more likely that either:

A. The bugs were not part of the original script, and they just threw them in there as a random detail, not considering the implications. I mean, none of the bugs play a critical role in the plot, including the heal bugs.

B. They just forgot about the fusion bugs by the time they got around to writing the finale.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I think it's more likely that either:

A. The bugs were not part of the original script, and they just threw them in there as a random detail, not considering the implications. I mean, none of the bugs play a critical role in the plot, including the heal bugs.

B. They just forgot about the fusion bugs by the time they got around to writing the finale.

They may have been introduced to indicate that the earrings used by the Kais were made using something found in the bugs, which would explain the fusion capabilities.

[Basaku]

If NOTHING lines up anymore then what's the point of telling any story ever if none will matter at all in the next "product"?

I didn't say nothing should line up, but rather it shouldn't be a big deal if every now and then something is its own isolated thing. Super's timeline has been going on since 2008. That part of the franchise has an OVA (2008 Tarble), 4 movies, a 131 anime series, and a 104 chapter manga. What's so bad about a 20 episode series being its own thing after being stuck with the same thing for so long ?

Every now and then? We're talking 3 main anime series post-Z potentially not lining up anymore. To me that IS the definition of nothing lining up anymore, especially when Super era itself had multiple versions already not living up with each other

[t0ffe3m4n]

Surely that ranks up there as one of the best Kamehameha's we've ever seen? Just majestic.

[Mister_Popo]

Storyline canon (different timelines)
Within the franchise, different storylines connect to form coherent timelines:
1. The main manga timeline (Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super manga by Toriyama & Toyotarou).
2. The main anime timeline (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super anime, including filler and adaptation differences). Overseen by Toriyama.
3. Standalone works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Heroes, and older movies that don’t align with the main storyline.

I see what you're trying to do, but I'd say there are four "prominent" continuities. These four timelines, encompassing the works that have stood as the primary face of the Dragon Ball IP at the time of their production, I give in rough chronological order below:


Manga (or THE canon timeline, if only one must be supreme)

• Jaco (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (first ~517 chapters + Trunks chapter)
  2008 Jump special manga (2 chapters)
  Super manga (first ~4 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' manga (3 chapters)
  Resurrection 'F' movie (last half hour or so)*
  Super manga (next ~38 chapters)
  Broly movie
  Super manga (next ~62 chapters)
  [Whatever comes next with Super]
  Dragon Ball manga [Kanzenban] (final ~2 chapters)

Old Anime (original Z and GT)**

• Bardock special
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Z movie 1 [it doesn't fit, but it kinda has to]
  Z anime (first 118 episodes)
  Trunks special
  Z anime (last 173 episodes)
  GT (64 episodes)
  GT special

New Anime (Kai and Super)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  2008 Jump special
  Super anime (131 episodes)
  [Adaptations of the two Super films and/or the remaining manga? Only time will tell...]
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

Daima (exactly what it says on the tin)

• Jaco manga [?] (11 chapters + Minus)
  Dragon Ball anime (153 episodes)
  Kai (first 165 episodes)
  Daima (20 episodes)
  Kai (final 2 episodes)

In addition are a bunch of "micro-continuities" formed by spin-off products and various movies.

*Resurrection 'F' is in an odd spot with its manga adaptation being incomplete, cutting off right before the big transformation reveals and telling the reader to go see the movie. So the last act of the film has to be awkwardly shoved in at this point.

**There are arguments to be made about whether one or more additional Z movies (as well as Episode of Bardock) take place in this timeline, but I don't feel like sitting here and litigating each case.

It was never my intention to describe all possible continuities in complete detail.
The main point I wanted to make is that Dragon Ball consists of multiple storylines. What defines a continuity is that all events within it must fit together without contradicting each other. Dragon Ball Super fits perfectly both after the original DBZ anime and after DB Kai—since Kai is essentially DBZ without the filler. The filler in DBZ does not contradict the content of DB Super, meaning they are, in a sense, part of the same continuity.

However, for Dragon Ball Daima to fit into the main anime timeline (including Super), certain elements would need to be explained first. And I hope they will still do that.

Broadly speaking, there are two versions of the main story—one in manga format and one in anime format (The anime contains additional material or has slight differences from the anime movies, but nothing truly conflicting. So, for the sake of convenience in this discussion, I consider the anime movies a part of the same timeline). I find it acceptable that there are differences between these two versions since they are separate media, and it's common in pop culture for variations to arise when a work is adapted into multiple media.

That said, in principle, there is one main anime timeline—the one that the original author, Toriyama, was involved in. I don’t see the need for a second, separate main anime timeline that contradicts the first. The entire labyrinth of works is already complex enough as it is.