Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Daima" TV series premiering October 2024, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Vegeta th3 4th
Regular
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:17 am

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta th3 4th » Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:21 am

Brettjr25 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:08 pmSS4 still confuses me though, it looked like it definitely was given to him from Neva but the end implies that Goku learned it prior after training after Buu and just decided to give it a try? So what, after goku lost Neva just healed him, even though the power Neva put in him clearly showed it transforming Goku and Goku clearly looking shocked at his own transformation..?
Goku trained long enough to realize he had the potential to go further than Ssj3, he just didn't know how to materialize that potential into an actual transformation yet.
mecha3000 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:41 pmEveryone trying to head canon Daima into tying into Super are just in denial at this point.
Super's fans have spent the last decade screaming from the top of the mountains about how much more important Super is than the likes of GT and the old movies, and how it and the original manga are one and the same...only for Toriyama to completely throw it aside for a GT tribute of all things. No one's talking about Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego anymore, all the hype is surrounding Ssj4 and Ssj3 instead. If you're someone's who's entire love for the franchise revolves exclusively around Super, that's got to hurt. With Daima being Toriyama's final work, people are already raising the "it's not canon" flag at anyone who brings up Super, which is what Super's fans spent a decade doing to GT fans. What's even funnier is all the comment early on stating that "Super wasn't GT, there's no way it would get overwritten"... :lol:
Jack Bz wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:21 pmI am disappointed that it's impossible for it to link with Super...
I actually think this was the best decision they could've made, not only because I don't like Super, but because it proves they're willing to think outside the box. Super is not the original manga, so not everything has to connect to it. If someone has a good story they want to tell, but don't want to deal with Super, then Daima has proven that they are allowed to ignore it and just tell the story.
Lord Beerus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:24 pmI also got a massive kick out of the gag of The Third Eye being something that was sold in a convenience store. That was 100% a joke Toriyama himself wrote.
It's such a shame how misunderstood this is, as so many people are speculating how this sets up a sequel, when in reality it was just making fun of all the rare things you can find in the least likely of places.
Lord Beerus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:24 pmIf Goku had this form in his back pocket, why didn’t he use it earlier? Why did Nova need to unlock it for him?
My understanding of this is that Goku knew he had the capability of going beyond Ssj3, he just didn't figure out how to materialize that potential into an actual transformation.
Lord Beerus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:24 pmPiccolo doing fuck all in the finale was sad but it didn’t shock me.
Poor Piccolo. He wasn't allowed to fight a Tamagami, he wasn't allowed to fight one the Majin brothers, and he got zero shining moments during the final battle.
Lord Beerus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:24 pmThe only thing Daima has to claim as a major positive is that it was consistently well animated. There’s nothing about the show that stands out from a narrative perspective.
We got Ssj3 Vegeta, I'm clearly happy.
Lord Beerus wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:24 pmIf Daima has made one thing clear, the main are creatively cooked. There is nothing left for them to do that is interesting from a characterization perspective.
The story of Goku and his friends is over, they need to move past the end of Z and have them train the next generation of fighters. Having them be martial arts masters will add a new dynamic to the mix of things.
Saiya6Cit wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:47 pmNothing is perfect, of course, but this show meets my expectations and went beyond on some. Oh this show has delivered. I got served. And I could have dessert (Daima movies, I am calling for you). They have set up a solid universe. It has potential for a second season even, but I believe they could safely go for some movies. And finally use give vegeta ssj4 and use the fusion bugs.
I actually think this will be a one and done project out of respect for Toriyama. The show wrapped up nicely, so they may not be too keen on revisiting his last project only to drop the ball on it.
Saiya6Cit wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 10:47 pmCongratulations Toei Animation for creating something better than Dragon Ball Super.
It's not like they could make something worse. :lol:
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:10 amSo, They didn't even try to explain how it fits in the timeline established in Super?
Nope, because contrary to popular belief, Super was no more important to the people involved with the franchise than GT was. Just as GT was ignored when it became inconvenient to take it into account, so was Super. Unlike GT and Super however, Daima will likely (but not for sure) never be ignored due to it being Toriyama's final project before his passing. You've got the original manga at the top, followed by Daima, followed by everything else.

User avatar
jjgp1112
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7671
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: Crooklyn

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:25 am

I said it in the other thread but I think at this point we have to accept that in Toriyama's mind, the only true "canon" was the original manga he drew from 1984-95 and everything before and after that wasn't stated in the text is whatever you want it to be. GT, Super, Battle of Gods, Daima, etc are all just toys in a wide open sandbox of creativity.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3667
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Scsigs » Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 am

Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:21 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:10 amSo, They didn't even try to explain how it fits in the timeline established in Super?
Nope, because contrary to popular belief, Super was no more important to the people involved with the franchise than GT was. Just as GT was ignored when it became inconvenient to take it into account, so was Super. Unlike GT and Super however, Daima will likely (but not for sure) never be ignored due to it being Toriyama's final project before his passing. You've got the original manga at the top, followed by Daima, followed by everything else.
Hate to break it to ya, but GT was never really canon in the first place. At best, it takes place after the original DB & Z anime continuity. Super was designed from the ground up to take place in the manga's continuity (which gets to be more of a headache when the manga started adapting Toriyama's arc plot outlines separate from the anime, resulting in some wildly different takes on the same material). Even Xenoverse & the other video games treat GT like they do the movies before Battle of Gods; as an alternate timeline/elseworlds tale, which is the best way to look at it since it takes things like the Black Water Mist from the Garlic Jr. filler arc from Z, which in of itself can't take place even in the show's continuity because Dead Zone can't take place in it due to several continuity gaffs between them. Even if Toriyama didn't hate GT himself, expecting him to have continued on from that mess is dumb. I doubt even Toei would've cared to do that seeing as they know not a lot of people actually care about GT (slowly lost ratings in Japan to where it was ended after 64 episodes & a special) & the movie they were working on before Toriyama rewrote everything into Battle of Gods would've taken place before it anyways. At this point, GT is relegated to character appearances in videos games & extended universe media like the Dragon Ball Heroes promo animes. This is why Daima takes elements of GT & redoes them with Toriyama's direct involvement. Just like the Super: Broly movie redoes the first Z Broly movie, but with Toriyama's direct involvement. I kinda wish that Toriyama had rebooted Cooler into another movie as well, but cie la vie. Maybe Toyotaro will in the manga.

In regards to what you say about Daima being ignored. We'll see. It seems that Daima was always meant to be a smaller, short tale, canonicity be damned, though. I assume they'll continue the Super continuity, probably adapting the arcs Toyotaro did in the manga after the show ended, then going into new territory of stories written by the anime staff. Maybe they'll revisit old concepts & put a fresh spin on them. We'll see.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:25 am I said it in the other thread but I think at this point we have to accept that in Toriyama's mind, the only true "canon" was the original manga he drew from 1984-95 and everything before and after that wasn't stated in the text is whatever you want it to be. GT, Super, Battle of Gods, Daima, etc are all just toys in a wide open sandbox of creativity.
I mean, kinda, but kinda not. Obviously, he meant Super as the official continuation of the manga. I wish he set it after the ending of the manga instead of in the timeskip before it since GT's not canon anyways, but whatever. Daima, though, I don't quite get what the thought process was. Probably just wanted to fuck with people. He's done that before.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
Majin Buu
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Majin Buu » Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:15 am

Final episode. I liked it.

The first half of the episode was just Goku fighting Gomah. It was fine, but like Gaffer, my mind was starting to wander a bit as well. I do like that it ended with Goku impaling Gomah with a Kamehameha that simultaneously blew a hole through the Three Demon Worlds though as it's Goku literally leaving his mark on the world (as well as a pretty looking waterfall in the sky).

Piccolo fails to remove The Third Eye, leaving Kuu open to do it instead, leading to Gomah's defeat and The Third Eye's destruction at Glorio's hand (foot). Kuu then one-ups himself by becoming Daimao, being the first in line to succeed Gomah as the one that technically defeated him. This is great. Yeah, it shafted Piccolo (Toriyama giving his favorite character the red herring role once again), but I don't mind because I love where it led to.

Majin Kuu. There's a character arc for you: Written off as a failed creation by his mom due to not being strong enough. He steadily proves his worth in other ways throughout the show all while said mom shows no appreciation for his efforts until he eventually saves the day and becomes the new King of the Demon Realm. And he never loses his cheery, earnest disposition and remains loyal to his mom all throughout. His character arc is the spiritual successor to Fat Buu's in the Buu arc. Much like how Fat Buu's arc took him from big bad to good guy, Kuu's takes him from loser to hero. I love it, so much.

And once he's Daimao he takes to it quickly, immediately getting to work establishing a new administration by making Arinsu Vice-Daimao (more on her later) and giving out minister positions: Glorio for having good judgment and heart, and Neva and Marba because they know about the Demon Realm and have great magical power respectively (And Hybis volunteers for a position just 'cause. One last great moment from one of the show's highlights). He also gives one to King Kaden, who expresses shock as there's never been a minister from The Third Demon World, with Kuu saying that this'll make him the first. I like this because it implies that relations between The Three Demon Worlds will become better under Kuu's leadership. It makes sense that Kuu wouldn't care about Kaden being from The Third Demon World since he was only just born recently so he'd have no concept of those class divisions to taint his perspective. Coupled with his earnestness, this makes him uniquely qualified for the job. Like Neva said, he might actually be good at this. Majin Kuu and Majin Duu are by far my new favorite Dragon Ball characters. I'm glad that two of Toriyama's final creations wound up being just as inspired as the creation they're based on.

I liked the fake out with Goku raising his hand only say "no, we're going home." One last Goku moment that feels like Goku.

Interesting that Kaioshin suggested Arinsu become the new Daimao, reasoning that she still had some conscience. Kuu backs him up by making her Vice-Daimao with the reasoning that she's not all bad and that she created him in the first place (he is a good judge of character as he claims), in addition to her brains and planning making her a powerful asset. Arinsu claims her ambitions haven't changed and passes on the position at Kaioshin's suggestion with some well-reasoned logic, but her tone is very much like Piccolo's after his defeat at the 23rd Budokai and we know how he turned out from that point. She's been defeated, and despite being a racist warmonger, she's been left in a position to be redeemed- and at the hand of her own creation no less (As being Vice-Daimao to Kuu sets her up to make amends for her complicity in The Third Demon World's oppression).

And even though she failed to fulfill her ambitions, I'd say creating the next King of the Demon Realm and being made Vice-Daimao by said king is something to hang her hat on.

Vegeta complaining about Goku holding back the new form leads Goku to confirm that it's indeed called Super Saiyan 4, along with revealing that he reached it through training after the Buu arc- Meaning Neva didn't give him the form when he powered him up, only unlocked it. I like that Vegeta made his "Super Saiyan bargain sale" quip again only for Goku to point out that Vegeta used Super Saiyan 3 himself (in a call back to his exasperated reaction when Vegeta first revealed it), calling attention to the hypocrisy in Vegeta's complaint. That Vegeta embarrassedly tried to save face by calling it something different and hilariously lamer was the cherry on top ("Ultra Vegeta 1"?). Vegeta's usually better at coming up with cool flashy names, but he was clearly flustered here so he gets a pass on that one.

The fusion bug wound up being a red herring just like Piccolo. Again, I don't mind considering what we got instead. Plus Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta likely would have broken the internet just as much as the new Super Saiyan 4 did so I'm happy to side-step that storm.

I appreciate that the adventure wound up altering the status quo of the Demon Realm for the better. The story's themes seemed like they were heading in that direction so I think it was paid off in what we saw. Neva removing the barrier has already made life better for The Third Demon World as the incoming wind has cleared out all the gas, making the air lighter. In addition, we see what looks like people starting to travel through the tunnel. Between this and Kuu's diverse administration, the barriers between The Three Demon Worlds have been both literally and figuratively removed, setting the stage for life to improve for all of the Demon Realm's inhabitants. Great stuff.

Neva asks both Dende and Piccolo to stay in the Demon Realm and of course, they both refuse, but Dende promises to run it by the Nameks in the outer world, suggesting that they might take to the idea. Neva has been shown to see visions of the future and believes that the Nameks will return to the Demon Realm someday. Perhaps this sets the stage for his vision being fulfilled, allowing him to be reunited with his people after being The Demon Realm's last Namek for so long. I like the implication considering one of his first lines was expressing joy at the prospect of seeing another Namek for the first time in ages, our first indication that he misses being among his own kind.

Neva also wound up playing kingmaker by telling everyone that the one that defeats the Daimao is first in line to succeed them. I like how Neva started out helping Gomah kick off the plot, then helped the heroes overthrow him and instill a new Daimao, and now has ended the story as a minister who'll advise the new King Kuu, using his knowledge and wisdom to actively help for a change. Thanks to Kuu, he'll be a neutral arbiter no more. He's been a great character too. The Demon Realm's equivalent to Kami wound up being a better Kami.

Panzy and Bulma get one last scene together, building off of their scene geeking out over Majilite in episode 13. Panzy took a bunch of it from Gomah's warehouse and gave it to Bulma as a gift, making good on her promise from that episode to get Bulma some of it. Panzy's been great too. She's Bulma with a ruffian edge, tempered by a strong sense of justice implied to have been formed from living under the oppression the Daimao have inflicted on The Third Demon World. Now, as a result of her efforts throughout this adventure, her dad is set to be in on the ground floor of The Demon Realm becoming a better place for everyone, strongly implying the end of said oppression. She's been an enjoyable character.

The end credits showed a montage of mostly the remaining cast back on Earth reacting to being restored to their normal bodies. The most interesting scenes were of Gomah and Degesu's sealed away exile in what seems to be an island lighthouse in the middle of a desert inside the jar they were sealed in, complete with basic amenities and some entertainment like cards and video games. At least they get to be comfortable in there. Speaking of Degesu, I like how his punishment is to be Gomah's "company" in his 99 year sealing (I also liked Piccolo shaving off one year because Gomah didn't harm Dende). Degesu had his own aspirations but wound up being nothing more than Gomah's beleaguered toady, so being Gomah's "company" in his sealing- and at Arinsu's behest no less, is a fitting fate for him. Though the implication from what we're shown is that they're no longer boss and toady in how they interact, with them playing video games in what looks like intense competition. Based on this, I think they're gonna gradually become buds over these 99 years.

The stinger sees the gang return to the store they bough the bugs from to get some more revive bugs at Goku's suggestion since they're low on Senzu. I liked the gag of Bulma being grossed out at the idea of eating bugs only to change her tune upon being told there's some that give skin anti-aging properties, the payoff for the running gag of her liking how nice her skin was as a child. This trip eventually leads to the reveal that there's two more Third Eyes in existence and that the one Gomah used was purchased here long ago, likely by a previous Daimao considering the store keeper mentioned they were pricey. The twist that there's more of the dangerous artifact that almost defeated the Dragon Team, that it can just be purchased in some random shop, and ending the story on that twist- Is so Toriyama. It's similar to the ending of the manga in that it concludes with the implication that more will happen beyond this point but this is where we're stopping.

All in all, I've enjoyed Daima. Yeah, some episodes were weaker than others, but it has consistently entertained me, and that's saying a lot for me considering modern Dragon Ball was a mixed bag for me until Super Hero; so I'm happy that I was able to enjoy Toriyama's final Dragon Ball project.

Also, I don't care that Daima doesn't connect to Super. Not even a little.

User avatar
TKA
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1133
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:25 am

The part of my brain that loves to neatly categorize things is displeased by this finale that leaves so many things unexplained.

But the much larger part of my brain that loves that it just ended so open-endedly is very pleased.

Daima was a good time. Definitely the best Dragonball has looked on a weekly format. Overall I'd say it's my second favorite Dragonball anime, surpassed only by Kai.
When will it be Ledgic's time to shine?


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

I checked out of geek culture after I saw the Snyder Cut. Everything else is "sentimental candyfloss."

User avatar
Vegeta th3 4th
Regular
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:17 am

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta th3 4th » Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am

Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amHate to break it to ya, but GT was never really canon in the first place.
Dragon Ball DOES NOT HAVE A CANON. Why is this so hard to understand ?
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amAt best, it takes place after the original DB & Z anime continuity. Super was designed from the ground up to take place in the manga's continuity.
Both Super and GT follow the events of the Buu arc, whether you're watching the anime or the manga. No one official has ever come out and said "GT counts less than Super as a continuation".
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amEven Xenoverse & the other video games...
Since when have video games ever been a measure of what counts or doesn't count ? You're grasping as straws here.

Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amEven if Toriyama didn't hate GT himself, expecting him to have continued on from that mess is dumb.
He didn't connect Daima to Super, so I guess that means you consider it a mess, right ?
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amI doubt even Toei would've cared to do that seeing as they know not a lot of people actually care about GT.
Toei and every company involved with DB treated GT no different from how they treated every other part of the franchise. It was always represented alongside everything else. Also, who are these people who "didn't care" about GT ? Can I have an official source that points to this made up fact of yours ?
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amAt this point, GT is relegated to character appearances in videos games & extended universe media like the Dragon Ball Heroes promo animes.
This also applies to the original, pre-Z Dragon Ball. Let me guess, it's also not "canon" ?
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amIt seems that Daima was always meant to be a smaller, short tale, canonicity be damned, though.
There was never a canon to begin with, it was always the original manga then everything else below it. Your precious Super was never more important than anything else in that category.
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amI assume they'll continue the Super continuity, probably adapting the arcs Toyotaro did in the manga after the show ended, then going into new territory of stories written by the anime staff.
Which proves the point people have been making for decades: Dragon Ball HAS NO CANON. They can make a more standalone story like Daima, return to continuing Super, write a side manga focused on Yamcha, etc...
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amMaybe they'll revisit old concepts & put a fresh spin on them. We'll see.
Of course they will, Super's side of the franchise is creatively bankrupt.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 885
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:18 am

Thoughts on the finale:

Excellent conclusion. No notes.

Well, maybe a couple of notes. That post-credits scene was such a perfectly Toriyama way to close the curtain I don't even know what to say. It's beyond depressing that we'll never get anything like this again. On the first year anniversary of his passing, Toriyama's presence has left the building, and as far as I'm concerned, so has Dragon Ball.

SS4 Goku vs. Gomah was entertaining to watch largely because it's one of the few fights in Dragon Ball to feel like an even deadlock. Usually these tend to be an advantage tug-of-war, or someone bluffing. Whatever it might have lacked in character interactions is overwhelmingly compensated for by the second half of the episode having just that in spades, so it's fine.

Kuu is a better fit for the iron throne than Bran Stark, but poor Hybis gets nothing lmao.

Thoughts on Dragon Ball Daima:

Man, where do I even begin?

Toriyama sure wasn't kidding when he said he worked very closely on this project. For starters, the humor is there, and it's impeccable. His trademark dry wit and snappy timing come across so effortlessly in every episode that it often felt more like I was flipping through the pages of one his single volume comics than actually watching a TV show, so there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that he was heavily involved in the script. The sheer amount of irreverence on display every week just instantly reminded me of the Buu arc, in the best way. No animated material in general has thus far managed to capture Toriyama's style of comedy or even his character writing so well in motion. His modern DB films come the closest, and even then, I'm not sure any of them quite nail this level of execution in comparison. I don't laugh easily, and Daima had me laughing a lot.

I should firstly clarify that as the third post-Buu sequel to the original story, this is just as different from the other two sequels as they are from each other. Despite some of its base ideas taking inspiration from GT, it feels exactly like the kind of modern Dragon Ball tale Toriyama would have envisioned and told on his own. We can infer this from on-the-record statements about his renewed passion and detailed level of involvement when writing Daima (consistent with another recent interview suggesting Toriyama conversely wasn't enthused about Super ten years ago) but also mainly from the storytelling itself: Daima is the "anti-sequel" sequel so to speak, given its greater emphasis on freestanding adventure elements and the development of a newer cast over previous endeavors to increase the stakes and dominantly focus on legacy characters, respectively. I'd argue also that it doesn't nostalgia mine quite as heavily as its predecessor sequel. Goku and a few of his old pals are here to keep things recognizable, there's some iconic imagery from the old days like Nyoibo and Super Saiyan, and much of Daima's actual worldbuilding expands upon the Buu arc, but the narrative underneath is standalone. Put more succinctly, a lot of it's doing its own thing with a decidedly DB flavor. It is perhaps less a celebration of the franchise itself and more a window into the mind of its creator.

That is to say that much of Toriyama's broader storytelling elements, particularly those found within his single volume manga, are front and center here in Daima. Cowa! is a relaxed low-stakes adventure with a structure that actively blurs the line between episodic and serialized. Sand Land has strong geopolitical themes, a big bombastic fight in its climax using a protagonist who isn't actually even the main character, and a lot of expository worldbuilding that may not be obvious in how it comes together thematically until its back half. Kintoki explores its cast in ways other than through serious tension, and Kajika is nearly all of the above. None of the stories I just mentioned are as long as Daima, clocking in at anywhere from a quarter to around half its length if adapted into an anime, but they adhere to similar devices and were likely free of the same stringent editorial pressures that shaped much of Dragon Ball. Moreover, Toriyama repeatedly went on record to say he preferred to draw these more unassuming works compared to the constant flashiness of DB, which is probably the biggest reason he was likewise more drawn to Daima than Super. At the risk of sounding elitist, forget about Dragon Ball; Daima is a litmus test for how much people truly appreciate his larger body of work. Ironically, that probably makes it more qualified to be a natural sequel to Dragon Ball than anything.

To see how the series specifically ties together its myriad lore and character threads, look no further than its underlying subtext. If Sand Land was about resource monopolies and their oligarchic effects on war and climate change, then Daima is a scathing commentary on the overall devastation of greedy authoritarianism. This isn't just some pretentious observation; it's the unifying throughline of virtually everything described in the show. In direct contrast to the ancient 'good' Supreme Demon King that embraced an open border policy and sought to literally expand those borders via the creation of the outside multiverse, every known ruler from Abura to Gomah is established to be selfish, avaricious and deeply tyrannical. Likewise, every catastrophe – the mass exodus of majin races in response to Abura's closed border policy for traversal to the outside world, the collar subjugation of "lesser" demons enforced by Dabura, Gomah's frequent extortion of impoverished demon villages, etc. etc. – is a direct consequence of their rule. Even the Demon Realm itself consists of three layered closed-off worlds, with each lower layer's denizens enjoying higher social and economic status than the previous, representing a kind of classist caste system. As it turns out, most of these so-called "random" "lore dumps" in Daima aren't actually random or pointless at all; nearly all of its worldbuilding explores the societal impact brought about by these politics, and our heroes bear witness to some of it firsthand as well.

But if the lore is the buildup, the protagonists are the payoff. As lifelong victims of the Demon Realm's system and subjugation of its people, Panzy and Glorio both deal with their circumstances in profoundly different ways. Panzy seeks to change her realm for the better and install her father as a fairer ruler, while Glorio is initially much more withdrawn and self-serving, working in secret under the devious Dr. Arinsu in exchange for a better lot in life. In standard DB fashion, he finds himself gradually changed by Goku and Panzy throughout their journey together while Arinsu unwittingly becomes a reluctant mother figure to her creations Kuu and Duu; their arcs ultimately converging after Glorio decides not to betray the gang, instead betraying Arinsu, whereas the latter chooses to forgive him and seems to have softened in general. As the brother of Arinsu and Degesu, Nahare/Shin contrasts with his more ambitious siblings as a responsible, wise ruler of the outside world. And while Neva clearly cared for his people and closed off all three worlds to protect them, his actions resulted in more problems than solutions and eventually led to all Namekians abandoning the realm anyway – though it seems his bond with the others, particularly Piccolo, restored his faith a little. Goku et al. only meant to get their bodies back, but it's thanks to everyone's efforts that the realm's affairs have improved and the air is (literally, in the third world's case) lighter. Again, the arcs and archetypes on display are quintessential Toriyama.

One might notice that nearly every character I mentioned above occupies the role of caretaker. While some of this is a bit on the nose (like Shin telling Degesu he watches over the peace and order of the universe, or the good and bad guys' very different allegorical caretaking for Dende), these dynamics clearly parallel the antagonists' own greedier brand of supervision and treachery. The latter's approach never serves them well. Indeed, these evil Supreme Demon Kings have been shown time and again to be the real agents of their undoing: Abura was blind to his son Dabura's betrayal as his throne was usurped, so too was Dabura blind to Babidi's, and Gomah plants the seeds for his own downfall in more ways than one. There's a bit of visual irony here too, considering these guys traditionally get their power from a literal eyeball. Gomah's Pilaf-esque goofiness is a pretty great representation of how ineffective and self-destructive the Demon Realm's system actually is; his paranoia and subsequent actions end up biting him in the ass, but just like his antecedents, guy was on track to getting betrayed by multiple parties anyway. It's a vicious cycle of greed and hubristic stupidity. If there's a positive message to take from this, it's that despots are often doomed to repeat the same mistakes as others of their ilk, and we can always look out for one another as we continue to work for a better society. Which I'd say is more than relatable in this day and age!

Of course, none of this is to suggest that Daima is flawless perfection. The direction has its share of inconsistencies, which is to be expected in a 20 episode series. Even though the Saiyans and Piccolo are clearly handicapped as kids, their specific limitations are never quite made clear. I can excuse episode 13 as a one-off whimsical filler sidequest, but episodes 14 and 15 impact the main story a bit negatively and have their share of moments where the series struggles to balance being Dragon Ball and something altogether different; notably when it overshoots on prioritizing the action to the point of undercutting the needs of the story, amounting to a still on-its-own enjoyable but flawed divot in an otherwise stellar sequel. As much as I like the goofy Gendarmerie Special Forces, for example, they don't really further the characters as much as other enemies have in prior episodes, including weak ones played for comedy. Those two episodes are basically what Daima's detractors wrongly think the entire show is. However, I'd also be lying if I said all of this isn't minor as hell in the grand scheme. I think my issues collectively account for maybe 10% of the show.

Let's not forget that Toriyama tended to save his gravitas and more cathartic scenes for the climaxes of his stories, even within Dragon Ball, which is fully upheld in Daima. It's tough not to snicker whenever I read complaints about the series lacking "emotional stakes" when that steady buildup of subtle moments for a more dramatic payoff later on is a tried and true staple of the original run. This is especially noticeable with Glorio's character arc, though as I mentioned above, all the protags summarily make up a unified role. People have repeatedly argued for a "Kai" cut of Daima, but I feel that could only diminish what the series was actually setting up. I concur with Akio Iyoku's interview when he hinted there's a lot of good stuff people might not catch until they go back and rewatch. So many posts in these threads were routinely asking for things bereft of the qualities that make Dragon Ball such a unique property under Toriyama, and I vehemently disagree with that line of thinking. As the old adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Additionally, I think it's fair to say that all these gripes about pacing were thoroughly missing the point. It's an adventure, not Game of Thrones. There's an overarching plot about what the villains are doing, but it's not the focus – the cast is, its main theme is, and because this is etched into its story structure, the setting needed ample room for new environments, concepts, and backstory. So much of the worldbuilding works towards establishing why these characters' goals are so important to them while their journey oscillates between multiple different stops per episode, themselves chock full of engaging character interactions, to ensure the moment-to-moment stuff never feels dull. Even when there are fights, they generally don't last long. Not only is this ebb and flow much faster than any previous anime, the actual structure and pacing isn't far off from Toriyama's non-DB stories, even if they're a bit shorter than Daima's adventuring. It's also the difference between story and just "plot", something I'm not confident a good chunk of the fandom has even tried to grasp. The show routinely reminds us to cherish the journey instead of worrying about the destination, saving all of its bombastic moments for the climax: DBD rightly wants its viewers to get to know both the protagonists and the world they're exploring first and foremost. Anyone following the subtext or just enjoying the ride shouldn't find this bothersome.

With that said, Daima is admittedly new territory for the franchise in many ways. As I mentioned some paragraphs above, it's probably Toriyama's most politically messaged DB project ever; something that wouldn't necessarily be out of place in a couple of his other works, namely Sand Land, but which was only rarely given serious attention in Dragon Ball. It also has this almost Tolkien like quality to it in that it conveys its storytelling through an equal ratio of adventure and worldbuilding, even employing old fantasy tropes popularized by LOTR like 'the reversed quest'. It's hard to say if Toriyama took inspiration from those novels directly and/or borrowed it from his own material, with many of his short works especially coming to mind, but he once called the beginning of Dragon Ball a "road manga" before its inevitable shift to battles. In that same interview, he mentioned adventure was his personal preference. One can reasonably infer that Daima's carefree storytelling was something he'd always wanted to do with DB, and I don't think they'd be wrong. I don't doubt that those with little familiarity with Toriyama's other manga will find that structure to be a jarring shift, but I think it's rather refreshing to see a mainline series venturing outside of its comfort zone to try something largely new, even if part of its premise was brought about by Iyoku trying (and perhaps failing) to appeal to GT's fanbase. No sweat off my back, since I just think it's GT done right.

The obvious conclusion to draw is that for Toriyama, this is undeniably a passion project through and through. I'm as sad as anyone that he left us last March, though I'm ultimately happy he got to see the bulk of (pre?)production through while alive. He clearly put his all into this and it shows, because as a series, this is easily the most well-executed follow-up to the original story we've had since DB ended in 1995. This is that sequel. From front to back it is loaded with personality and charisma and character beats that are fun and memorable, it tells an easily identifiable story about the fallout of a particular type of government, and it's very candid about what it's selling to the audience. I really, truly think it's up there with the best of the modern era (specifically Battle of Gods and Broly) even if the reasons I enjoy it are different in several ways. Rather than trying to recapture the magic of old, it's just fantastic on its own merits. If the fandom consensus doesn't agree, I'd encourage any new viewer to forget the consensus, enjoy the journey and just come to your own conclusions instead. You might be surprised!

Lastly, given that this project is a collaborative effort, it would be remiss of me not to give credit to all the other talents involved besides the late Toriyama. Toei's entire animation/art staff, Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru chief among them, have done a damn phenomenal job at keeping the visuals looking consistently fantastic while accurately representing Toriyama's modern aesthetic that's been sorely missing since the revival era started. Kosuke Yamashita composed an awesome soundtrack with fitting, ambient JRPG vibes. There's too many names to mention here, but huge kudos to everyone involved. They worked their asses off and it definitely shows.

At the end of the day, there's not much I'd change about Daima. The entire show flows even more smoothly and cohesively on binge/rewatch, and even its sore spots still come out pretty good. Everything from story to characters to subtext to humor to pacing to themes and so on just oozes the charm of Dragon Ball's creator from episode 1 all the way to the finale. I'd recommend it even to those only casually familiar with Goku and friends – maybe especially so, given how distinctive it is. It's certainly not beholden to a hardcore fandom audience that just wanted Super 2.0.

As Akira Toriyama's swan song, Dragon Ball Daima is as ideal a sequel to the original series this franchise is ever going to get, somewhat ironically less because it channels Dragon Ball and more because it channels Toriyama himself. What an extraordinary commemoration, and embodiment, of his legacy and work.

9/10.
Modern DB story arc scores:

User avatar
BernardoCairo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:09 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by BernardoCairo » Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:49 am

Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:21 amNo one's talking about Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego anymore, all the hype is surrounding Ssj4 and Ssj3 instead. If you're someone's who's entire love for the franchise revolves exclusively around Super, that's got to hurt.
This "war" between fans really only exists in the minds of a few, with both GT and Super fanboys equally guilty. It's the second most popular series in the franchise, so it's not going anywhere. Ultra Instinct is still one of Goku's most iconic transformations, and people will stay engaged. Eventually, the anime will come back in some form.
Using Daima's ending to start fights only makes the fanbase more frustrating. The "you bothered me, so now I’ll get back at you" attitude doesn’t sit well with me.
Just sit here and waste your precious time. When you want to do something, don't do it right away. Don't do it when you can. Read my posts instead. It's the only way to live a life without regrets.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4760
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:59 am

It was a fun ride, with awesome new characters. I got a little weepy during the 2nd half when it hit me that this was the last time the real Goku and co. would show up. This is the end, what's in store next is probably more SBDH like material.

Piccolo was soooo close to becoming the actual thing his father thought he was. So fucking close.
Gohan was really nowhere to be seen, not even in the final montage.
I was kinda hoping to hear Goku yell Juuubaaai but not being that GT-focused was ok, too.
Third Eyes being in the market :clap:


About the continuity, it's safe to say Akira never gave a damn about that. GT is its own thing, DBS and Daima, too. They don't connect nor override each other. I'd rather have Daima in DBS' continuity, but having three different continuities is fine by me. (Although if I were Toyo, I wouldn't know how to feel)
After Buu dies, a Time Traveller moves a rock this way and GT happens; moves it that way and DBS happens; that way and Daima happens.

I'm sure Grimlock must be going crazy with so many people talking about canon these days.

User avatar
sangofe
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7917
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:39 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by sangofe » Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:07 pm

I don't care that the fusion bugs weren't used. What a FABULOUS episode. Kuu finishing it up and becoming the ruler of the Demon World, HELL YEAH! I laughed SO hard when Kuu had the finishing blow. And I laughed about the "Super Saiyan Bargain" joke. Wonderful episode. Toriyama in and out. Very funny open ending too. I don't think there will be another season. Best episode of Daima for me; a strong 9 out of 10.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4760
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:32 pm

And I would've loved if this adventure took place after EoZ, and be the one to take us out of the neverendingpost Buu-pre Uub era that keeps on getting prequel of prequel. After the multiverse, the origin of it.
But branching out into three alternatives is not bad either.

Dbzfan94
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5712
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:41 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:25 am I said it in the other thread but I think at this point we have to accept that in Toriyama's mind, the only true "canon" was the original manga he drew from 1984-95 and everything before and after that wasn't stated in the text is whatever you want it to be. GT, Super, Battle of Gods, Daima, etc are all just toys in a wide open sandbox of creativity.
The fandom would be better off if this were more widely understood. "This is canon!" "This isnt canon!"
Who cares? Everything is canon in its own continuity.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3667
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Scsigs » Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:54 pm

Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amHate to break it to ya, but GT was never really canon in the first place.
Dragon Ball DOES NOT HAVE A CANON. Why is this so hard to understand?
Why else besides people not liking the arguments do people say this shit? Yes it does. Everything springs off of what Toriyama wrote in the manga. The manga is what is considered the canon. The original versions of the anime shows are a second timeline. Every movie before Battle of Gods are their own timelines. Kai is another timeline. The Super anime (this includes BOG & RF because even though the show adapts those stories, but they're both basically the same as the movies, just stretched out to fuck) is its own timeline. The Super manga is another timeline. And Daima is its own timeline. The only piece of non-manga material that everyone considers canon is the anime version of the History of Trunks bonus chapter of the manga.
The nexus point is the manga. That's what everyone considers the proper "canon" at this point & everything new (minus whatever happens in the games) springs forth from it. Why is THIS so hard to understand? What you're thinking about is how things that aren't already established that Toriyama said in various interviews are in a weird floaty void until they're officially used or referenced in the newer stuff. And until they are, they can either be ignored or changed by the writers or Toriyama depending on how they wanna go about things. Like, I hate to tell ya, but a whole slew of things that are in GT that reference the Tuffles is actually additional materials the Z anime introduced that, while I don't know if Toriyama had any hand in crafting, is not referenced outside of that anime & tie-in stuff from the time before GT used it. Which is another reason why GT only makes sense when you place it in the timeline the animes take place in.

Like, this makes me think of Ben 10 & how a lot of early trivia facts that were previously additional info in the original series & even early Alien Force are ignored in later Alien Force, Ultimate Alien, & Omniverse so the writers could establish different things in the future, which came back to bit them when Derrick J. Wyatt used the apparent original plan for Kevin to be a mutant in Classic as a justification for Omniverse to retcon him back into a mutant rather than an alien/human hybrid, which brings up a lot of plot holes, but Kuro the Artist found out that that wasn't actually a full idea Man of Action put into the show & they were fine with Kevin being a hybrid, plus that Derrick J. Wyatt most likely got wrong information from somewhere to for such an opinion. And yet, there are fans in the Ben 10 fandom who'll argue to this day which was the better thing for him to be because of how contentious a topic this is & Derrick J. Wyatt's words on the matter from back when the show was in production don't help matters. Point being that the shows are where the canon of Ben 10 lies & the manga is where the canon of Dragon Ball lies.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amAt best, it takes place after the original DB & Z anime continuity. Super was designed from the ground up to take place in the manga's continuity.
Both Super and GT follow the events of the Buu arc, whether you're watching the anime or the manga. No one official has ever come out and said "GT counts less than Super as a continuation".
Bruh. They don't HAVE to say it. GT is continually ignored by everyone who actually writes the shows & Super manga. It literally only gets referenced in extended media like the video games now. Hence why Toriyama took ideas from it & used them as a springboard to create Daima. It's obvious by this point that they don't value GT that much anymore, what?
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amEven Xenoverse & the other video games...
Since when have video games ever been a measure of what counts or doesn't count ? You're grasping as straws here.
Because the way they look at them is the only logical way to look at these things. You really don't have the best analysis skills. I literally told you that Xenoverse says, "These things are alternate timelines because that's the only way to deal with the continuity gaffs" & no one has a problem with that. The games literally about time travel are telling you this.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amEven if Toriyama didn't hate GT himself, expecting him to have continued on from that mess is dumb.
He didn't connect Daima to Super, so I guess that means you consider it a mess, right?
No. GT is a mess because of the messy plotting, the continuity errors, the wasted potential of a lot of the characters, the execution of its plots, & what not. Daima, from what I can gleam from it (because I'm waiting to binge the English dub) isn't a mess. It had a plot & things it wanted to do & it executed most of them well. Toriyama or the anime staff not connecting Daima to Super doesn't make it a mess, it just makes it confusing as to if they're supposed to be compatible or not.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amI doubt even Toei would've cared to do that seeing as they know not a lot of people actually care about GT.
Toei and every company involved with DB treated GT no different from how they treated every other part of the franchise. It was always represented alongside everything else. Also, who are these people who "didn't care" about GT ? Can I have an official source that points to this made up fact of yours?
GT gets less representation in current anime media. Like I've said, it's relegated mainly to video game stuff & even that's been getting a bit lesser since Super started & the games started adapting that stuff. It gets merchandise sometimes as well, but only with the hits like the main characters.
Bro, you misread what I wrote. I didn't say people didn't care about GT years ago. What I was referencing was the fandom at large. GT has its fans, but it's notably a niche sect of the fandom. Most people either hate GT or just don't give a shit about it because it's not a great series. Most people agree that Super Saiyan 4 is cool, Baby was a decent villain, & the series had a lot of great ideas, but the series was ultimately lackluster. I don't know how you can exist in this fandom & not know that even if you like GT.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amAt this point, GT is relegated to character appearances in videos games & extended universe media like the Dragon Ball Heroes promo animes.
This also applies to the original, pre-Z Dragon Ball. Let me guess, it's also not "canon"?
No because the original pre-Z DB stuff was in the manga. I thought you would've understood this. This is a whataboutism.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amIt seems that Daima was always meant to be a smaller, short tale, canonicity be damned, though.
There was never a canon to begin with, it was always the original manga then everything else below it. Your precious Super was never more important than anything else in that category.
Yes, there was.
In a world where Toriyama actually cared about the quality & continuity of his series specifically because of how bad DB Evolution was & how the Fox execs treated him during its production, you saying that there isn't a canon in the series is incredibly tone deaf. My assumption is that somehow Toriyama would've found a way to cleanly connect Daima to Super if he were still with us. If all of the post-Z animes count, explain why Super has numerous things that make GT wholly incompatible with it? You cannot cleanly connect Super to GT &, for some reason, you're missing that.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amI assume they'll continue the Super continuity, probably adapting the arcs Toyotaro did in the manga after the show ended, then going into new territory of stories written by the anime staff.
Which proves the point people have been making for decades: Dragon Ball HAS NO CANON. They can make a more standalone story like Daima, return to continuing Super, write a side manga focused on Yamcha, etc...
Ok, this is stupid as fuck. You're taking side shit not meant to connect with the main franchise as evidence that there's "no canon" now?
The Yamcha isikai manga was literally a fanfic that they got the author to let them officially publish because they liked it. It's not MEANT to be canon. It's in the same realm as Episode of Bardock, which was a sequel written by a fan of the original works making a non-canon sequel (due to Bardock being written differently, the notion of him time traveling from Freeza's death ball being ludicrous, etc) to 1 of the Z TV specials that is now non-canon because Toriyama rebooted Bardock in Minus which is what the Super stuff's been going with since Broly. You're completely misunderstanding what is & isn't canon, though at least OG Bardock got a mention in the manga after the special happened, which is why people considered it canon for years until Toriyama retconned it. Retcons don't make it so there's "no canon." That's absurd. Dragon Ball's full of them. No wonder your arguments make no sense, Jesus.
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amMaybe they'll revisit old concepts & put a fresh spin on them. We'll see.
Of course they will, Super's side of the franchise is creatively bankrupt.
Bruh. This is something that I hate with Super haters. Super is NOT "creatively bankrupt." There are many new things introduced in it in terms of both characters, storylines, & lore. The only things that are repeats of previous materials in any way are Resurrection F bringing Freeza back (which is more of a tale of delayed revenge from 1 of the franchise's most memorable villains), Future Trunks (which isn't even a repeat of his arc from Z, as it has a new villain, a lot of new ideas, & actually connects back to the ideas present in Super), & Broly (which mixes the core character of Broly & his father with elements from Fusion Reborn & Minus). Even Super Hero, I have a hard time saying is creatively bankrupt outside of Toriyama using the Red Ribbon Army again & repeating Gohan's character arc from Super of learning to find a middle ground between training & his scholar shit from Super, but I expect it not to be a problem anymore going forward if the writers know anything about character consistency.
Outside of those, though, Super has introduced a LOT of shit. Beerus, Whis, the other Gods of Destruction, their attendants & Zeno, the newer Super Saiyan forms, Golden Freeza, Ultra Instinct, Beast Mode, Orange Piccolo, Ultra Ego, & Black Freeza, how alternate universes work in DB & their inhabitants, etc. Super introduced a good amount of new shit in the franchise that a lot of people love by now & is anything but "creatively bankrupt." This is the argument of someone who just looks at a certain few things rather than the whole & looks at them at a surface level, then claims the franchise is creatively bankrupt. By your logic, Daima's more creatively bankrupt for reusing ideas & shit from GT like you wanna say Super reuses a lot of ideas from the original manga/Z/older movies & is creatively bankrupt for it even when the ideas are remixed in different ways than the originals & there's plenty of new shit to separate them from the old shit.
Daima reuses the wish to turn Goku into a child, the jaunt to another place off Earth to get some Dragon Balls to try to reverse the current shit, Super Saiyan 4, Goku as a child going SS1 & SS3, giving Goku a new Gi, new Dragon Balls, the red variant of a previous dragon, & other things from GT, so it's creatively bankrupt. Fuck the alternate dimension Demon Realm bullshit, the lore about Namekians, the new characters, Vegeta going SS3, & how everything's executed differently than GT. Creative bankruptcy.

Do you see how dumb that argument is?

There are literally a lot of different directions they can go with the franchise, especially if they push after the end of the original manga finally like they should.
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:32 pm And I would've loved if this adventure took place after EoZ, and be the one to take us out of the never ending post Buu-pre Uub era that keeps on getting prequel of prequel. After the multiverse, the origin of it.
But branching out into three alternatives is not bad either.
This is basically my argument distilled down to its base elements. The franchise literally has a built-in explanation for this shit established through the videos games, with Heroes first delving into it (poorly), then Xenoverse established the Time Patrol with the Supreme Kai of Time (I assume this shit had Toriyama's involvement to some extent) which says that all of the pre-BOG Z movies & GT are in their own timelines. It's easier & harmless to go with that explanation than "DB has no canon."
BernardoCairo wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 11:49 am
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:21 amNo one's talking about Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego anymore, all the hype is surrounding Ssj4 and Ssj3 instead. If you're someone's who's entire love for the franchise revolves exclusively around Super, that's got to hurt.
This "war" between fans really only exists in the minds of a few, with both GT and Super fanboys equally guilty. It's the second most popular series in the franchise, so it's not going anywhere. Ultra Instinct is still one of Goku's most iconic transformations, and people will stay engaged. Eventually, the anime will come back in some form.
Using Daima's ending to start fights only makes the fanbase more frustrating. The "you bothered me, so now I’ll get back at you" attitude doesn’t sit well with me.
This. I have no problems with fans of GT, but I have problems when they start bashing the newer shit just because the majority of it overrides GT. GT is best seen as a "what-if" to me. An elseworlds tale. I like aspects of it, but it has structural problems all over the place when you begin to analyze & put it under a fine-toothed comb. I know hardcore GT fans don't like when you do that, but the fact that they do the same thing with Super to point out ITS flaws, so it's only fair to do the same thing for GT. I think the main problem is that GT's older, so it has a few decades on Super in terms of people discussing its flaws. However, there are a TON of people who're hyper critical of Super ever since it started. Overly so, to the point where they complain about things that aren't even really problems to try & say it's just as bad or worse than GT. This dude literally complained in another threat about Super Saiyan Blue being an eyesore because "the color balance was off." That's not an objective criticism of the newer stuff or the form itself. That's literally just something that bothers HIM & probably a small subsect of viewers, he was told so by someone else, but kept doubling down on it. Considering how he argues his points, I don't respect his opinions. He literally picked a fight in this thread with me just because I started complaining about how Daima didn't do anything to explain the discontinuities with Super. It's so dumb.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
Vegeta th3 4th
Regular
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:17 am

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegeta th3 4th » Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:08 pm

Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 am
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 amIt seems that Daima was always meant to be a smaller, short tale, canonicity be damned, though.
There was never a canon to begin with, it was always the original manga then everything else below it.
Yes, there was.
Prove it. Show me an interview or video of an official person attached to Dragon Ball saying product A and B are canon, while product C and D are not.

User avatar
Mister_Popo
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:12 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:10 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:41 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:25 am I said it in the other thread but I think at this point we have to accept that in Toriyama's mind, the only true "canon" was the original manga he drew from 1984-95 and everything before and after that wasn't stated in the text is whatever you want it to be. GT, Super, Battle of Gods, Daima, etc are all just toys in a wide open sandbox of creativity.
The fandom would be better off if this were more widely understood. "This is canon!" "This isnt canon!"
Who cares? Everything is canon in its own continuity.

Exactly. Of course, Dragon Ball has a canon. Actually, it even exists on two different levels.

Overarching canon (established collection of works by the author Shueisha)
This includes everything officially approved and published by Shueisha.
Whether it's the manga, anime, movies, spin-offs, or games, they are all part of the franchise and fall under Shueisha's ownership.
From a legal and copyright standpoint, everything is "official Dragon Ball."

Storyline canon (different timelines)
Within the franchise, different storylines connect to form coherent timelines:
1. The main manga timeline (Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super manga by Toriyama & Toyotarou).
2. The main anime timeline (Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super anime, including filler and adaptation differences). Overseen by Toriyama.
3. Standalone works like Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Heroes, and older movies that don’t align with the main storyline.

Keeping a story consistent within its own timeline is the foundation of storytelling—it gives meaning and logic to a sequence of events.
Right now, that logic is completely missing from the main anime timeline.

If Daima is part of the main anime timeline, then we already have three major inconsistencies: SSJ3 Vegeta, SSJ4 Goku and the defusion of Kibito and Shin. Either these inconsistencies will be addressed in a future arc after Daima (or in Daima Season 2) to align the storyline with Super. Or they won’t be explained at all—which would be astronomically lazy writing (even by Dragon Ball’s standards, where inconsistencies aren’t uncommon). Or Daima will establish an entirely new, separate anime timeline. But creating yet another timeline makes little sense when everything could easily fit within the main anime timeline with just a bit of extra explanation.

Claiming that Dragon Ball has no canon, and justify that as an argument for these major inconsistencies, is essentially saying that the story in itself doesn’t matter.

User avatar
Scsigs
I Live Here
Posts: 3667
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:55 am
Location: NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Scsigs » Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:41 pm

Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:08 pm
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 am
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am There was never a canon to begin with, it was always the original manga then everything else below it.
Yes, there was.
Prove it. Show me an interview or video of an official person attached to Dragon Ball saying product A and B are canon, while product C and D are not.
You don't need one. The way that they've been doing the franchise now with Super where the only shit that matters is the original manga & the scenes directly adapted from it for the first 2 DB animes (so, Kai for Z) (also the Yo Son Goku & his Friends Return OVA) makes it pretty clear that all that matters is that & everything else is an elseworlds tale that they can take influence from for new things, but ultimately don't matter moving forward. How is this a hard concept to grasp. You want me to pour over hundreds of interviews with Toriyama, the producers of the DB anime shit, & Toyotaro from the last 10-12 years to find a direct quote that says it when it's literally right in front of us when you actually analyze what's been prioritized & focused on the last decade & change? The only things that matter are what Toriyama has written & now Toyotaro from what I can tell. It's stupid to argue otherwise.
Only dubs that matter are DB, Kai, & Super. Nothing else.
Vic Mignogna: Good actor & singer, but a MAJOR douchebag & idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Scsigs
https://twitter.com/Scsigs

User avatar
SHINOBI-03
I Live Here
Posts: 2646
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:47 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:55 pm

Do I care this series isn't canon to Super? No.

Do I care I didn't get the plot points everybody was sure were set up? No.

Do I care the ending wasn't the same cliche movie-style ending? No.

Do I care I had a fun time with Daima? Hell yeah. Not only this series was enjoyable, but I also loved how it ended. Everyone is friends, Kuu saved the day and gave everyone a job, the very Toriyama-style gag ending.

Still have my preserves on how the exposition and Super Saiyan 4 were handled, but I wouldn't mind revisiting this story in the future. It actually makes me wish it was longer or have a follow-up season.
My Dragon Ball Story (500th post)
My Anime List
My Manga List
Big Momma wrote:This is Daizex. There's gonna be complaints and groaning no matter what. ;)
Anime Insider magazine wrote:If police officers in the future dress like prostitutes, then what do prostitutes in the future wear?

User avatar
The Monkey King
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1193
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:53 am

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:00 pm

Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 4:08 pm
Scsigs wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 2:58 am
Vegeta th3 4th wrote: Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:58 am
There was never a canon to begin with, it was always the original manga then everything else below it.
Yes, there was.
Prove it. Show me an interview or video of an official person attached to Dragon Ball saying product A and B are canon, while product C and D are not.
Dragon Ball clearly has a "Canon" hinging on Toriyama's involvement:
Weekly Shōnen Jump, 2019 #2 (10 December 2018) wrote:By the way, Gogeta doesn’t appear in the original Dragon Ball manga; like Broli, he’s a movie-only character!! In other words, original author Toriyama-sensei‘s rewriting is an attempt at adding Broli and Gogeta to the Dragon Ball official history!!
Kanzenshuu Translator Herms wrote: The phrase translated here is 正史 (seishi), literally meaning “authentic” or “official” or “true history”; this same phrasing was used in a 2012 Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods press release. We have gone with “official history” here to match said previous translation; alternatively, this could be and has been translated as “canon”.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... ll-report/
Toei’s Press Release for Battle of Gods wrote:A new story in the official history of Dragon Ball is born, neither a spin-off nor a side-story, one that can be enjoyed by both children and parents, manga fans and anime fans.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2012/09/26/t ... l-z-movie/

The phrasing of BoG not being "a spin-off nor a side-story" is distinguishing it from a series like GT, which lacked the substantial amount of Toriyama's creative input to be considered "Canon" and he himself described as a "side-story"
Akira Toriyama wrote:Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... ama-intro/

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:11 pm

Yeah there’s a canon. At this point it sadly is not that important regarding discussions, considering how every story from now on will not really be canonical.

But it’s clear Toriyama got so dissatisfied with Super that he took the chance to re-start the official continuation to his manga with Daima, thereby making it the new canon supplanting Super and related movies.

The fact he went so out of his way to really make it clear that this is not in the same continuity speaks volumes. And by logic, being this his last work, and being canon only one, Daima is the true one.

Of course it’s likely he wanted to reboot Super. He still took some elements from it and it wouldn’t have surprised me to see a new series with him being as involved as in Daima, retelling Super, or borrowing inspiration from it, from Battle of Gods but following Daima’s events.

Like, I don’t think he would have let go of Beerus and Whis in his canon, but unless he left out some more stories, they now are (if we don’t want to assume that BoG still happens quite similarly but with Super Saiyan 4 Goku, Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta etcetera).
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

User avatar
Vegard Aune
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1080
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:38 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 20 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegard Aune » Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:23 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:19 pm I know for certainty that the "this is my strongest form" line comes from the manga. Toyotaro has no hand in Daima, so it doesn't really matter to me anyway. I would expect Toei to ignore Toyotaro's manga when giving input for Daima.

I can't recall if that line is ever said in the anime or movie, and I've heard conflicting reports on this.
Having literally rewatched Battle of Gods three hours ago, I can tell you that the line in the manga is taken straight from the movie: これが最強のスーパーサイヤ人3だ
Literally, "This is the strongest Super Saiyan 3!" Which is for some reason rendered as "the mighty Super Saiyan 3" in Simmons's translation, weakening the point a bit, but the use of 最強, in addition to Beerus previously telling him to "Come at me with your Full Power", is about as blatant a statement that "Super Saiyan 3 is the most powerful form Goku has access to at the time of Battle of Gods" as you can possibly get. And then Kaio's later statement that "Even in Super Saiyan 3, Goku was taken out with just two punches from Beerus" again makes it pretty blatant that Super Saiyan 3 is indeed considered the peak at that point.

The idea that Goku had access to Super Saiyan 4 pre-Beerus completely spits in the face of what is stated and shown both in Super and in GT. The show already seemed pretty fundamentally incompatible with both of them, but this finale didn't even try to smooth things over, instead opting to literally just solidify that point py saying that, yeah, Super Saiyan 4 is a form Goku discovered on his own through training. This both renders the repeated claims/inferences that Super Saiyan 3 is the peak of his power at the time he meets Beerus, and the method with which Super Saiyan 4 is unlocked in GT, nonsense.

Post Reply