Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:33 pm

As for edge enhancement: it's understandable on laserdisc. Those were only slightly better than VHS, and typically very soft. Star Wars is a perfect example.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:50 pm

The VHS ones look to be slightly more zoomed out, too.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:53 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:The VHS ones look to be slightly more zoomed out, too.

Don't forget that the FUNi single Cha-La's had more picture than the dragonbox ones... while not the point of the topic, it's something that I felt would be worth bringing up.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:56 pm

bkev wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:The VHS ones look to be slightly more zoomed out, too.
Don't forget that the FUNi single Cha-La's had more picture than the dragonbox ones... while not the point of the topic, it's something that I felt would be worth bringing up.

But Funi's were textless. TOEI probably re-framed the intro for the credits.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:58 pm

Point taken, jjgp. This is beginning to get even more interesting than I had anticipated.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:06 pm

I've also questioned the accuracy of the colors in the DBox. They just looked different from stuff such as artwork, poster, etc. Take Bojack and his minions. In Movie 9, they had more of a greenish color in the Dragon Boxes, yet in all other artwork of them, they're solid blue, as well as in the Funi Double Features:

(You'll know which is which):

Movie 9 cover:

Bojack picture:

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:07 pm

Smooth Criminal wrote:I agree -- The DBOX colors are definitely off in comparison to the original airings and the cels posted in the thread. I think the Piccolo comparison is clearly indicative of that.

Seems the DBOX isn't as "perfect" as we all originally thought.

DBOX is good enough for me, and as far as I know, there's no better quality avaible.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:10 pm

I don't think anyone has gotten to saying the dragonboxes aren't GOOD. They are in terms of quality miles ahead of what we know otherwise; however, what's being questioned is accuracy to the original prints.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:16 pm

As a counterpoint to what Corey brought up before about the film master being worse for the re-airings: It seems like for the TV show masters, they just use direct recordings for syndication. When DBZ re-aired on Toonami before it got cancelled, they were showing the Android Saga up until episode 181. The masters looked exactly the same and were in the exact same condition as they were on the singles. Same colors, and not much film damage (contrary to popular belief, Funi's singles outside of the UUC releases were actually in good condition and had little to no film damage).

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:20 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:(contrary to popular belief, Funi's singles outside of the UUC releases were actually in good condition and had little to no film damage).

Also remember that their digibetas were zoomed in, in order to avoid interference from glue. But to be fair, I think the DBOX did that too; however, not to quite as much a degree as the Cell Saga DBZ singles. Not trying to put you down there, just trying to give the most accurate information possible and inform.

Acid_Reign · Post by **Acid_Reign** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:31 pm

Smooth Criminal wrote:I agree -- The DBOX colors are definitely off in comparison to the original airings and the cels posted in the thread. I think the Piccolo comparison is clearly indicative of that.

Seems the DBOX isn't as "perfect" as we all originally thought.

Those shots from the original airings are hardly indicative of what the colors “should” be; there are too many transit points, each one introducing the possibility of quality loss. By the time it goes from cel→film→intermediate format(s)→broadcast→VCR→screenshot app, the colors are likely going to be far apart from what they were in the original paint job.

And while the cels themselves are obviously a more direct source, knowing the DB fandom and its history, the screenshots have probably been copied from various sites and compressed multiple times.

But, assuming they are accurate, do we know if the animators perhaps used different shades than what they otherwise would, because of the foreseeable color degradation? I.e. using brighter-than-usual colors, so that when it was transferred to the type of film stock they were using, it would still look close to what they wanted?

Furthermore, it doesn’t even look like they used a consistent shade of green for Piccolo. So comparing Piccolo shades 1 and 2 to Piccolo shade 3 seems like a mistake to me (though I do understand kei17’s situation).

Anyway, in the event that the earlier copies represent the intended color better (on account of them being made at a time when the film source was not as degraded as it is now), all that that indicates to me is that Toei/Pony Canyon didn’t fuck with the colors after scanning the film. It shows its age. That’s usually preferable. Not that I’d mind a color restoration (so long as it looked nothing like FUNi’s version, blegh; it looks even worse than usual in comparison to all the other variants), but the lack of one certainly doesn’t make me depreciate the D.Boxes, because they do still look incredible, and better than any other release overall.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:26 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I've also questioned the accuracy of the colors in the DBox. They just looked different from stuff such as artwork, poster, etc. Take Bojack and his minions. In Movie 9, they had more of a greenish color in the Dragon Boxes, yet in all other artwork of them, they're solid blue, as well as in the Funi Double Features:

I cut out the other images, as this is the relevant one. I don't have my scanner up and running just yet, but I can confirm 100% that the actual picture of Movie 9's poster (the above image) on page 114 of Daizenshuu #6 depicts Bojack and co. in the same exact shade nearly as the DragonBox footage: They're a blue-green color. It's in my hands right now.

If someone else can scan this feel free, otherwise I'll have it up as soon as I can. In the meantime, I'm researching the other items to give the best possible reply.

-Corey

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:32 pm

bkev wrote:however, what's being questioned is accuracy to the original prints.

I'm too lazy to take new screenshots, but hey, look what I found in my old photobucket!

Original Film

Dragon Box Remaster (Yes, those two black dots are supposed to be in the middle. I believe that's why I took this shot, to show the difference between frame-by-frame vs automated restoration. It's Ten and Chaozu by the way.)

Original Film

Dragon Box Remaster

Only the film damage was corrected, otherwise the source material was untouched. If you prefer the look of your VHS copy, then I'd recommend to just continue watching that. The Dragon Boxes can not be color corrected to every random piece of material people throw out there, or to how people remember seeing the show. I'd say using the original film that the show was photographed on is as close to "correct" as they could have come.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:35 pm

Gah, how could I forget about that? Of course, DragonBox Z Vol. 2 has an extra that shows the original film master after being telecined but before any restoration was performed.

-Corey

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:54 pm

There really isn't much of a color difference between the original frames and the DragonBox frames. The difference I see is the removal of things that aren't supposed to be there. So, I guess the colors are correct in the sense of "these are the original colors." In the sense of "Bojack's gang is supposed to be blue, not green" maybe you'll wanna look at a different release.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:30 am

Acid_Reign wrote:Those shots from the original airings are hardly indicative of what the colors “should” be; there are too many transit points, each one introducing the possibility of quality loss. By the time it goes from cel→film→intermediate format(s)→broadcast→VCR→screenshot app, the colors are likely going to be far apart from what they were in the original paint job.

As I said before, the point is not "closer colours to the cels" but "original films' colours".

Acid_Reign wrote:the screenshots have probably been copied from various sites and compressed multiple times.

These images of cels are "Generation Zero".

DBW wrote:Only the film damage was corrected, otherwise the source material was untouched. If you prefer the look of your VHS copy, then I'd recommend to just continue watching that. The Dragon Boxes can not be color corrected to every random piece of material people throw out there, or to how people remember seeing the show. I'd say using the original film that the show was photographed on is as close to "correct" as they could have come.

The problem is that they have never released DB series on VHS /LD in the early films' colours. There is almost no way to get and watch them. However, I don't want them to release DB in these colours anymore. I want them to release DB in "original cels' colours" next time like Hokuto No Ken.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that DBOXes' colours are neither "originally meant to be" nor "how they were in the original airing", but are "unedited deteriorated films' colours" and just "Dragon Box Colours". Then, I can hardly accept them as a Japanese DB fan. We have never seen any DB-related footage in these colours on Japanese TV.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:48 am

I noticed however that, although the remastering has been said to NOT include color correction, the shot from "We Gotta Power" seems to have been slightly. Look where the glue is, and noticed that around it there's a bit of a greenish tint. Then, the dragonbox remaster makes it match the rest of the frame where there's less damage. Anyway, if anyone can find out if the original Hokuto no Ken remaster cerca '03 was done from generation 0 prints as well, then I think that could prove or disprove kei's point.

fps_anth · Post by **fps_anth** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:50 am

kei17 wrote: Anyway, I just wanted to say that DBOXes' colours are neither "originally meant to be" nor "how they were in the original airing", but are "unedited deteriorated films' colours" and just "Dragon Box Colours". Then, I can hardly accept them as a Japanese DB fan.

Funny that the North American fans would kill to have the Dragon Box footage, yet the Japanese fan(s) hardly accept them

But Kei is right, the colour difference between the original and Dragon Box footage is quite evident.

I'd still love to get those Dragon Boxes though!

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:57 am

So... apparently not even the DragonBoxes are "THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SEEN"?*

*that was more for joke reasons than serious reasons, however I still find this topic interesting. Don't lynch me!

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:57 am

Shots from DB episode 141 aired on Animax

Kanzenshuu

Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

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