Gravity training

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:22 pm

rzrgenesys187 wrote:If I remember correctly, when we see Vegeta in the gravity chamber he has been training in there for a while, which would tire him out eventually no matter how strong he was at the time.

Yeah. In the dub, he even mentions how when he was faced with that meteor shower and the giant meteor came out of nowhere, he normally would've had no problem blowing it to bits, but he was so worn out from training under 450g's that it took all of his strength to do it.

Rocketman wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Except we know for fact that the official numbers are 3 million, 150 million, and 120 million...
The official numbers can't be right, or Goku's Kaiokenx20+SuperKamehameha would've done a lot more that singe Freeza's hand.

At that point, Frieza was using 50% of his power, so he was already stronger than 20x Kaioken Goku.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:33 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:At that point, Freeza was using 50% of his power, so he was already stronger than 20x Kaioken Goku.

50% of 120 million is 60 million.

20 times 3 million is 60 million.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:09 am

Rocketman wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:At that point, Freeza was using 50% of his power, so he was already stronger than 20x Kaioken Goku.
50% of 120 million is 60 million.

20 times 3 million is 60 million.

Just to be fair, the daizenshuu PL guide rounds down a lot as of the Namek saga. Hundreds of thousands, or even millions could be left unshown in Freeza's 50% PL. For example, Goku and Nappa aren't 8,000 and 4,000, but in the 8,000s and 4,000s. Meanwhile, an in-story explanation could be that once Freeza was getting hurt by the attack, he immediately tapped into more of his power in order to withstand it, like he did against the Genkidama.

Another possibility is that Freeza focused his entire 60 million into his hand in order to stop the attack, just as Goku launched his entire 60 million into the attack itself.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:08 am

Except we know for fact that the official numbers are 3 million, 150 million, and 120 million...

And we know for a fact that the official numbers are impossible.

120 million - 50% = 60 million

3 million x 20 = 60 million + Charged Kamehameha = dead 50% Freeza. At the very least, more than a stung hand. My levels have KKx20 Goku at 40 million and 50% Freeza at 47.5 million.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:23 am

I figure if the Kamehameha works by focusing and amplifying all your ki into a single burst for the attack... isn't the Kaio-Ken already doing that? Perhaps that extra amplification doesn't happen when used along with the Kaio-Ken.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:21 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:I figure if the Kamehameha works by focusing and amplifying all your ki into a single burst for the attack... isn't the Kaio-Ken already doing that? Perhaps that extra amplification doesn't happen when used along with the Kaio-Ken.

Exactly. The Kamehameha's max strength was whatever Kaioken was. Using techniques uses up energy, not add to it.
Goku's PL =/= Kaioken x20 + Kamehameha. It's just Kaioken x20.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:50 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:I figure if the Kamehameha works by focusing and amplifying all your ki into a single burst for the attack... isn't the Kaio-Ken already doing that? Perhaps that extra amplification doesn't happen when used along with the Kaio-Ken.

Then why'd he bother to charge it? I don't see charged attacks as any kind of 'burst'. They're a focusing of energy to amp up the force of the attack. Like focusing light through a magnifying glass.

Hell, if the Kaioken did prevent charging a Kamehameha, then why'd Goku also charge the one against Vegeta previously? There's no way it would have taken him that long to unleash that attack otherwise.

Exactly. The Kamehameha's max strength was whatever Kaioken was. Using techniques uses up energy, not add to it.
Goku's PL =/= Kaioken x20 + Kamehameha. It's just Kaioken x20.

Yeah, using techniques uses up energy, but the Kaioken also amplifies a person's base power. But just because their power is amplified doesn't mean they can't charge an attack. If that were the case then Gohan wouldn't have been able to overpower Cell's Kamehameha at the Cell Games~

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:09 pm

Getting punched by someone just as powerful as you doesn't kill you. Freeza would hardly be as fearsome as he is if he couldn't take blasts as powerful as him. Heck, Vegeta took a Four-Times Kaiô-ken KameHame-Ha which he certainly had no business surviving from. It's likely Freeza's natural strength plus quick thinking allowed him to burst enough strength into his hand that he was able to escape with minimum damage.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:41 pm

Xyex wrote:
Exactly. The Kamehameha's max strength was whatever Kaioken was. Using techniques uses up energy, not add to it.
Goku's PL =/= Kaioken x20 + Kamehameha. It's just Kaioken x20.
Yeah, using techniques uses up energy, but the Kaioken also amplifies a person's base power. But just because their power is amplified doesn't mean they can't charge an attack. If that were the case then Gohan wouldn't have been able to overpower Cell's Kamehameha at the Cell Games~

Charging just means he put more of his strength into the attack. Charging it to max would mean that, at most, the attack is as strong as he is. Since Goku's PL was 60 million, a charge Kamehameha will also be at 60 million.

At that, we don't even know if Freeza was at 50% when he blocked it. At the start of the chapter after the Kamehameha hit him, he's got more muscle definition. This amount stays until Goku goes SSJ, where he reveals that he's now at 70%. I think he tapped into that extra 20% in order to overpower the kaioken-hameha. Even if he didn't, like Yugi mentioned, an attack equal to your strength likely won't kill you.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:54 pm

Dayspring wrote:Charging just means he put more of his strength into the attack. Charging it to max would mean that, at most, the attack is as strong as he is.

But Goku charging a Kamehameha against Raditz nearly tripled his strength.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:15 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Charging just means he put more of his strength into the attack. Charging it to max would mean that, at most, the attack is as strong as he is.
But Goku charging a Kamehameha against Raditz nearly tripled his strength.

That's a ki manipulation skill. Even against Nappa and Vegeta he hadn't absolutely mastered ki raising, as it took a few moments to go from 5,000 to 8,000. In other words, that 924 PL was his true maximum, not 416.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:23 pm

Getting punched by someone just as powerful as you doesn't kill you. Freeza would hardly be as fearsome as he is if he couldn't take blasts as powerful as him.

But you can't block something more powerful than you with just one hand and only get a singed palm.

Heck, Vegeta took a Four-Times Kaiô-ken KameHame-Ha which he certainly had no business surviving from.

That Kamehameha had to beat back Vegeta's Gallick Gun first, and as soon as it had Goku stopped putting power into it, so by the time it hit Vegeta it wouldn't have been nearly as powerful as when it left Goku's hands.

Charging it to max would mean that, at most, the attack is as strong as he is.

Except we've seen that you can charge an attack that is more powerful than you are.

Since Goku's PL was 60 million, a charge Kamehameha will also be at 60 million.

A full power Kamehameha would be at 60 million. A charged Kamehameha would be greater than 60 million.

That's a ki manipulation skill. Even against Nappa and Vegeta he hadn't absolutely mastered ki raising, as it took a few moments to go from 5,000 to 8,000. In other words, that 924 PL was his true maximum, not 416.

I've seen this same theory on MFG and I'll say the same thing now I said then. It's interesting but it's completely unsupported. Goku's maximum power was 416 and Piccolo's was 408. Their attacks were simply more powerful than they themselves were. Not because they were able to magically put more energy into the attack then they had but because they were creating focused attacks with ki far more 'compacted' that normal that effectively made them more powerful without increasing the amount of ki in them. Prior to learning ki suppression there is no 'powering-up' or 'reserve power' or anything along those lines. They function at their maximum all the time. Hence why ki suppression was developed in the first place.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:56 am

@Xyex: I get what you're saying, but I still disagree. Kaioken x20 is Goku already doing that. Remember that his max at this point is Kaioken x10. If Kaioken x20 is the max he can gather on top of his max, then the Kamehameha will be the Kaioken x20's strength.

Even if it were possible, it doesn't mean Freeza's 50% can't be 60 Million, as he was anywhere between 50% and 70% (84 million) in order to block the kaioken-charged kamehameha.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:01 am

Goku's power doesn't necessarily need to be at 3 million when using x20, since he's been pummeled repeatedly and exausted Kaio-Ken x10.

If Goku is at least around an upper but middle 2 million or so, the increase would put Goku somewhere around 50 million, and the beam could've increased it to 54 million or so.