Power Levels

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:23 pm

Tyro wrote:I'm saying that it wasn't possible for Goku to hold back Raditz until he was hit by Gohan. The way you said that Goku was capable of holding back someone "around 3x his own strength" told me that you didn't factor in Gohan's attack.

Ok, but you're not factoring in all the many attacks Raditz dealt against Goku before then. Whether the attacks weakened both of them is regardless; either way, Raditz is significantly stronger than Goku, but Goku still managed to restrain him.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:31 pm

Battle power remaining aside, the nature of the wounds can make all the difference, as well as their positions. I think both of them (at least Goku, probably Raditz) had broken ribs at that point. Getting out of the full-nelson might have been harder than holding on with the full-nelson in that case.

To make things more complicated, Goku may have had more bravery/spirit than Raditz at that point, which could make a difference. XD

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:43 am

Raditz was screwing around the entire time. He could have killed Goku or Piccolo any time he wanted. He was pulling his punches, though. Yes, he was doing damage, but nothing too severe. Gohan, meanwhile, slammed into him, head on, full force, into the chest. His armor even cracked from the impact.

And besides, Goku's shirt was gone by the time he grabbed Raditz, of course he was able to hold him. XP

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:37 am

Dayspring wrote:Ok, but you're not factoring in all the many attacks Raditz dealt against Goku before then. Whether the attacks weakened both of them is regardless; either way, Raditz is significantly stronger than Goku, but Goku still managed to restrain him.

Are you insinuating that, because of all the damage Goku took from Raditz, they were still in the same ratio of power? Like:

Raditz: 1,200
Goku: 416

Raditz is roughly 2.885x stronger than Goku.

Raditz (post-Gohan's attack): 433
Goku (holding Raditz): 150

Raditz is still roughly 2.885x stronger than Goku.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:57 am

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Ok, but you're not factoring in all the many attacks Raditz dealt against Goku before then. Whether the attacks weakened both of them is regardless; either way, Raditz is significantly stronger than Goku, but Goku still managed to restrain him.
Are you insinuating that, because of all the damage Goku took from Raditz, they were still in the same ratio of power? Like:

Raditz: 1,200
Goku: 416

Raditz is roughly 2.885x stronger than Goku.

Raditz (post-Gohan's attack): 433
Goku (holding Raditz): 150

Raditz is still roughly 2.885x stronger than Goku.

Interesting thoery you have. However this doesn't seem to be that way. If this is true, then Raditz would have knocked Goku over even if he arm locked him. So, it is possible that Radtiz, after taking damage from Gohan, was reduced to the power level same as injuried Goku's. Goku's injuries are far more severe than that of Raditz. No matter how hard Raditz tried to brush him away, he was still stucked to Goku's armlock. Sad but probably true, his power level had been reduced to roughly equal that of Goku's

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:51 pm

Not my theory. I don't agree with it either. In fact, I've always firmly believed what you've said; that Raditz was equal to Goku's injured level.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:21 pm

This is going to hell in a handbasket. My point is that there's lots of evidence to support that it's more than just PL numbers that decide a fight. If we take that into consideration, Nappa being 50-60% of Goku's PL becomes very plausible.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:12 am

I agree that more than just power determines the outcome of a fight (such as Tien beating Goku at the 22nd Budokai despite Goku being the stronger of the two), but at the same time the powers have to be within close enough proximity for anything but the difference in power to play a factor. A difference of 2x is well beyond that range. That's enough for one side to totally dominate the match.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:12 am

Xyex wrote:I agree that more than just power determines the outcome of a fight (such as Tenshinhan beating Goku at the 22nd Budokai despite Goku being the stronger of the two), but at the same time the powers have to be within close enough proximity for anything but the difference in power to play a factor. A difference of 2x is well beyond that range. That's enough for one side to totally dominate the match.

Nail vs first form Freeza and Goku vs 50% Freeza among other battles show otherwise, though.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:44 am

Nail vs first form Freeza and Goku vs 50% Freeza among other battles show otherwise, though.

Freeza did dominate the fight with Nail, though. No, he didn't bother with being overly offensive, but Nail never actually did any damage either. And Goku was only under 50% against Freeza when not using the KKx20, and was getting his ass handed to him anyway, so Freeza was dominating that fight too. In fact, while putting in more effort than he had against Nail he still wasn't taking the fight against Goku entirely seriously. Even after going to 50% power.

Raditz Vs. Goku and Piccolo, Goku Vs. Vegeta, Vegeta Vs. Kui, Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, Vegeta Vs. Zarbon, and Recoome Vs. Vegeta also support this.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:33 pm

Xyex wrote:
Nail vs first form Freeza and Goku vs 50% Freeza among other battles show otherwise, though.
Freeza did dominate the fight with Nail, though. No, he didn't bother with being overly offensive, but Nail never actually did any damage either. And Goku was only under 50% against Freeza when not using the KKx20, and was getting his ass handed to him anyway, so Freeza was dominating that fight too. In fact, while putting in more effort than he had against Nail he still wasn't taking the fight against Goku entirely seriously. Even after going to 50% power.

Raditz Vs. Goku and Piccolo, Goku Vs. Vegeta, Vegeta Vs. Kui, Vegeta Vs. Dodoria, Vegeta Vs. Zarbon, and Recoome Vs. Vegeta also support this.

But that just supports my argument that motivation is involved in the amount of dominance. When Goku did want to hurt Nappa at the beginning, he completely dominated the fight. When he didn't, it seemed about equal.

Let's look at the 23rd budokai fight against Chichi. In it, Goku couldn't figure out how to defeat her without hurting her. It should have been as simple as knocking out one of the prelimary opponents, but it wasn't because she was significantly stronger than them. As a result, he had to fight harder against her, something that may result in her getting hurt. It's the same concept with Nappa; if he can avoid it, Goku doesn't want to cause anybody considerable harm.

Just to be absolutely clear: I'm not at all saying Nappa stood a chance of winning, just that it wouldn't be a cakewalk for Goku to be able to defeat him quickly without risking Nappa any harm.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:42 pm

Where exactly does this notion of Goku not wanting to hurt Nappa derive from, again? Yeah, Goku didn't want to use Kaio-Ken, but he still was going all-out against Nappa after he (Nappa) powered-up and attacked him that final time. Neither could hit each other, and Nappa scared Goku with that ultimate move.

And if I remember correctly, Vegeta specifically said that Nappa could do better if he calmed down and stopped being stupid. The same guy read Goku's power level, so I'm sure he would know if Nappa really had a chance or not. It wasn't a lack of motivation--it was just Nappa being able to match Goku in power. Goku was holding-back his Kaio-Ken, I agree--just not holding back at his over 8,000 power level.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:06 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Where exactly does this notion of Goku not wanting to hurt Nappa derive from, again? Yeah, Goku didn't want to use Kaio-Ken, but he still was going all-out against Nappa after he (Nappa) powered-up and attacked him that final time. Neither could hit each other, and Nappa scared Goku with that ultimate move.

And if I remember correctly, Vegeta specifically said that Nappa could do better if he calmed down and stopped being stupid. The same guy read Goku's power level, so I'm sure he would know if Nappa really had a chance or not. It wasn't a lack of motivation--it was just Nappa being able to match Goku in power. Goku was holding-back his Kaio-Ken, I agree--just not holding back at his over 8,000 power level.

Not that he doesn't want to cause any harm to Nappa, just that he doesn't want to shatter bones, rupture organs, or inflict a wound that could lead to Nappa's death. Again, we've seen fights last just as long, if not longer, where the gaps were larger than 50%. With this in mind, it's entirely plausible it would take Goku more than an instant to defeat Nappa.

But I'm only playing devil's advocate here, so let's drop it; pesonally I feel Nappa is 8,000 exactly to Goku's "Over 8,000."