Power Levels

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:13 pm

Now I have been wondering about this. I never thought about power levels of certain characters. I was watching Dragon Ball Kai Episode 3 with the fight of Goku & Picoolo and Raditz. Raditz was overwhelming both Goku and Piccolo even with combined strength. It got me into thinking how it can be possible for Raditz to overpower his adversries (Goku and Piccolo). Raditz had a power level of around 1,200 while Goku had 416 and Piccolo with 408. Now onto Goku vs Freeza. It made sense that Freeza with 50% overwhelmed Goku. Goku had 300,000 while Freeza possessed 6,000,000. Now this is getting really strange. When Goku became SSJ, his powers increased 50x over, thus having 15,000,000 of power level. Meanwhile Freeza had pushed his power to 100%, which makes his power level of 12,000,000. How can Raditz, with power level several hundreds more than Goku and Piccolo, be able to make them feel like a crap, while SSJ Goku had an even fight with 100% Freeza with 2 millions power level difference for a quite while. It makes no sense.

Smooth Criminal · Post by **Smooth Criminal** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:46 pm

Obviously, Goku wasn't going all out for most of the fight with Freeza.

He was dragging the fight along, and he only had to use his real power when Freeza was fully powered up to 100 percent (which didn't last long due to large Ki consumption).

I would argue that the fight was never "even" between them. Goku was merely toying around with him for the majority of the fight, caught off guard only when Freeza first powered to 100 percent and landed some good hits.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:57 pm

For one, SSj Goku and 100% Freeza were in the 100 millions.

Secondly, it all comes down to differences. To me it does, at least.

For example:

Raditz: 1,200
Goku: 416
Piccolo: 408

Raditz is just about 2.9x stronger than Goku and Piccolo. That's a HUGE difference. Having a power level 30% higher than someone else's means that you can kill them with hardly any effort (an example of that is Vegeta (24,000) and Kiwi (approx. 18,000)).

SSj Goku: 150,000,000 (Daizenshuu number)
100% Freeza: 145,000,000 (rough estimation)

Goku is only 1.03448x stronger than Freeza. Nowhere near the difference between Raditz and Goku/Piccolo. This explains how the fight is so even.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:59 pm

I wouldn't call SSJ Goku vs Freeza and equal fight. Goku had the upper hand the whole time. I just don't think he was willing to deliver the final blow, not yet at least. Which is crazy when you're standing on a planet that's about to explode, but this is Goku after all. He wanted to make Freeza realize he was beaten.

Also, you could think of it this way; Raditz was more than double the strength of both Goku and Piccolo. SSJ Goku was no where near double Freeza's strength.

Edit: Tyro put it well.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:00 am

Bussani wrote:I wouldn't call SSJ Goku vs Freeza and equal fight. Goku had the upper hand the whole time.l.

I disagree. When Freeza was at his 100% he was more than SSJ Goku could handle. Only after Freeza's strength started to diminish (due Ki being consumed) Goku was able to overwhelming him.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:23 am

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Bussani wrote:I wouldn't call SSJ Goku vs Freeza and equal fight. Goku had the upper hand the whole time.l.
I disagree. When Freeza was at his 100% he was more than SSJ Goku could handle. Only after Freeza's strength started to diminish (due Ki being consumed) Goku was able to overwhelming him.

I agree with Senzu-Bean. In hindsight, it makes sense for Freeza to be able to keep up with SSJ Goku, as he's 4/5 his strength. If base Goku can more or less keep up with Freeza half strength, meaning only 1/20 of Freeza's strength, a 4/5 difference isn't all that far-fetched.

In hindsight, this makes Nappa's "in the 4,000s" a bit more plausible (though I still think it's around 8,000).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:50 pm

Dayspring wrote:In hindsight, this makes Nappa's "in the 4,000s" a bit more plausible (though I still think it's around 8,000).

Not really. Goku was about half of Vegeta's strength without the Kaioken and he was losing harder than Nappa was to Goku.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:03 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:In hindsight, this makes Nappa's "in the 4,000s" a bit more plausible (though I still think it's around 8,000).
Not really. Goku was about half of Vegeta's strength without the Kaioken and he was losing harder than Nappa was to Goku.

True. In my own opinion Nappa and Goku have probably the same difference as Goku and Freeza, before the latter went 50%.

omegacwa · Post by **omegacwa** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:07 pm

The Daizenshuu says Nappa is at 4000 right? Well to me at least that seems like an Ok figure when he was fighting "earth's special forces". But I believe that his fully powered up mode is probably closer to 8000, simple because why is Goku's power level of "over 8000" such a big deal then?

Plus doesn't Goku say something like "If I didn't use Kaio Ken I wouldn't have been able to beat him/this fight would go on forever."

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:51 pm

omegacwa wrote:The Daizenshuu says Nappa is at 4000 right? Well to me at least that seems like an Ok figure when he was fighting "earth's special forces". But I believe that his fully powered up mode is probably closer to 8000, simple because why is Goku's power level of "over 8000" such a big deal then?

Plus doesn't Goku say something like "If I didn't use Kaio Ken I wouldn't have been able to beat him/this fight would go on forever."

Yeah, the PL section rounded down to the nearest 1,000 as of the Saiyan battle (which is ironic because they didn't for the good guys in this fight), but hs bio says "in the 4,000s," which could mean anything from 4,001 to 4,999. One could easily argue this was a PL when he first arrived, as he powered up at least 3 times since he arrived.

@Rocketman: But their motivations were different. Vegeta wanted to pretty much make Goku suffer, so he used all that strength. Goku didn't want to do that to Nappa, but note that when he was angry in the "this is for my friends" moment, Goku completely dominated the battle.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:54 pm

Dayspring wrote:Vegeta wanted to pretty much make Goku suffer, so he used all that strength.

Goku says Vegeta's not even trying.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:02 pm

Rocketman wrote:Goku says Vegeta's not even trying.

That's true. When you look at how Vegeta came at Recoome, Zarbon, and Dodoria he really was taking it easy on Goku.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:05 pm

I also see Nappa being around 8,000 or so.

Goku wouldn't say the battle could take all day nor be surprised that Nappa could take some of his beam and still stand if he was still 2x stronger. Just...no.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:14 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Goku wouldn't be surprised that Nappa could take some of his beam and still stand if he was still 2x stronger.

Why not? I'd be pretty surprised if someone half my strength took a ki blast from me. :(

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:18 pm

Goku still thought fighting Nappa would take forever. That implies they're equal; one simply can't outdo the other at their current levels.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:55 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Vegeta wanted to pretty much make Goku suffer, so he used all that strength.
Goku says Vegeta's not even trying.

Fair enough, but that doesn't disproove what I mentioned about motivation being a key factor. Again, Goku dominated his fight against Nappa only when he wanted to. Meanwhile it doesn't make sense for Nappa to not be able to ok against someone twice as strong as him, when we've seen Goku hold back Raditz, who is about 3x stronger. I'll also point out the Goku (pre-kaioken) vs Freeza battle to further illustrate my point.

Even Goku's comment about it taking all day makes sense: Goku's not a killer, so his version of a worse case scenario is to break some bones (which is why he refused to use kaioken at first). If he's trying to avoid going that far, defeating someone half his strength will take a while.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:16 pm

Dayspring wrote:we've seen Goku hold back Raditz, who is about 3x stronger.

Raditz was no where close to full strength when Goku held him back. He had been hit squarely in the midsection by Gohan, who happened to be 1.08916~x stronger him, while Raditz was arguably off of his guard, dramatically lowering his defenses (see Majin Vegeta vs. Goku for example).

The fact that an injured Goku was capable of holding back Raditz proves that Gohan really packed some punch in his single strike.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:57 pm

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:we've seen Goku hold back Raditz, who is about 3x stronger.
Raditz was no where close to full strength when Goku held him back. He had been hit squarely in the midsection by Gohan, who happened to be 1.08916~x stronger him, while Raditz was arguably off of his guard, dramatically lowering his defenses (see Majin Vegeta vs. Goku for example).

The fact that an injured Goku was capable of holding back Raditz proves that Gohan really packed some punch in his single strike.

So it's possible for Gohan being 1.09x stronger to have a severe impact on Raditz (who has armor to cushion the blow) with one hit, but it's not possible for Raditz being 2.88x stronger to have an effect on Goku with hundreds of hits?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:32 pm

I'm saying that it wasn't possible for Goku to hold back Raditz until he was hit by Gohan. The way you said that Goku was capable of holding back someone "around 3x his own strength" told me that you didn't factor in Gohan's attack.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:37 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Bussani wrote:I wouldn't call SSJ Goku vs Freeza and equal fight. Goku had the upper hand the whole time.l.
I disagree. When Freeza was at his 100% he was more than SSJ Goku could handle. Only after Freeza's strength started to diminish (due Ki being consumed) Goku was able to overwhelming him.

I double disagree. Well, partly. You're right that it wasn't completely one sided, like...Freeza vs Nail, for instance. But Goku still had the upper hand I think. When I look at the manga, most of the time 100% Freeza manages to knock him around, he's just stalling for time so Gohan, Piccolo and Bulma can get off the planet.