Kanzentai Battle Power Guide

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:04 pm

Great guide. I read through some of it the other day. I had never made the connection that One Piece uses Bounty Prices as a way to gauge threat level.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:17 pm

Innagadadavida wrote:Great guide. I read through some of it the other day. I had never made the connection that One Piece uses Bounty Prices as a way to gauge threat level.

And just like Dragon Ball its a flawed system because someone with a lower bounty (or even with no bounty at all) can be stronger and more dangerous than another with a higher bounty.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:34 pm

The bounties work on notoriety as well as threat level. Obviously an unknown isn't going to have one no matter how powerful they are. It's hardly flawed from a writing perspective, like the battle powers are.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:46 pm

Yes, I understand that, but that doesn`t change the fact they are still a flawed system in-universe of evaluating your opponent`s power or threat to you, which was where I was getting at.

For example...

A Freeza`s soldier comes across someone he doesn`t know. He checks his scouter. The information he gets from the scouter may leave him off guard for the opponent if he gets cocky due to its flaws.

The same way, if a pirate comes across someone he doesn`t know and he somehow finds out his bounty that information may leave him unprepared and off guard if he gets cocky due to its flaws.

It has basically the same flaws.

Sayans/fighters/pirates can not be reduced to mere numbers.

And although Oda doesn`t stress this point, these flaws, as much as Akira Toriyama does, it has happened at least once or twice in One Piece a situation where a pirate underestimates his opponent due to his bounty and pays for it.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:38 pm

Akira wrote:The only one on that list that I questioned was Roshi at 180 against Piccolo. Is it perhaps when he powered up for the Mafuba Technique? Maybe that ought to be mentioned? Because he is still listed as 139 when Bulma scans him after the battle with Raditz, which was the same as his power at the 22nd Budokai. Other than that, everything seemed pretty good to me. Glad to have a few more legit numbers to add to my own list that I've kept in a word document.

Yeah. This is why relying on battle powers is bad within the series. They fluctuate a lot, in the case of the Earthlings. There's a difference between standing around Roshi and ready to fight Roshi. I guess it could be mentioned in the guide somewhere, for people who don't realize.

Shoryuken wrote:So the formula for figuring out the power level of a fused warrior is multiplying the strength of them together.
This does give some pretty huge power levels:
Ex.
Dodoria = 22.000
Zarbon = 23.000

Fusion between the two (22.000*23.000) = 506.000.000

That means they could kill Freezer in his first stage over a hundred times.

There's a big problem with this. I know that the SEG says, "fusion isn't addition, it's multiplication," but it doesn't specify what unit of measurement to use. For example, let's say Goku is a 5, and Vegeta is a 5. Fusion would make them a 25, only 5 times stronger. That's quite a big difference to the result you'd get using Freeza's battle power units.

To be honest, I think the guide's mention of it being multiplication is just a different way of saying "stronger than the sum of its parts."

Post by **Herms** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:06 pm

Bussani wrote:To be honest, I think the guide's mention of it being multiplication is just a different way of saying "stronger than the sum of its parts."

Yeah, technically the actual paragraph only says that Potara fusion is so amazing that the increase in battle power is more like multiplication than addition. So technically you could say that it multiplies the two peoples' BP by 100 or something and that would still fall under multiplication. It's only the picture caption thingy that says "Goku x Vegeta=Vegetto".

Another problem with taking the caption literally is that when Goku is contemplating fusing with Satan, he says it will hardly increase his strength at all, or even make him weaker. But even if Satan is only as strong as the farmer, fusing with him would still make Goku 5 times stronger, a substantial increase. But I guess you could say that Goku doesn't know how the Potara work. But then wouldn't Elder Kaioshin tell him that fusing with anyone would make him much more powerful?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:48 am

Herms wrote:Another problem with taking the caption literally is that when Goku is contemplating fusing with Satan, he says it will hardly increase his strength at all, or even make him weaker.

While what you said is true, remember that even the Kaioken could boost Goku's power times 10 with no trouble. Then the Super Saiyan levels are x50, x100, and x400 respectively. And if fusing with a regular human cost Goku his SSj upgrades, then yes, it would weaken him by far.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:04 am

Rocketman wrote:
Herms wrote:Another problem with taking the caption literally is that when Goku is contemplating fusing with Satan, he says it will hardly increase his strength at all, or even make him weaker.
While what you said is true, remember that even the Kaioken could boost Goku's power times 10 with no trouble. Then the Super Saiyan levels are x50, x100, and x400 respectively. And if fusing with a regular human cost Goku his SSj upgrades, then yes, it would weaken him by far.

Of course not.

A half sayan, half human (like Gohan, Trunks and Goten) can go super sayan so Goku would still be able to.

So he would still have the increase from the SSJ forms plus the x5 or whatever increase the fusion would give him overall.

And he was going to fuse with Mr. Satan. I don`t think he actually believed he would get weaker, especially if he if he was going to fuse with him rather than Dende.

Shoryuken · Post by **Shoryuken** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:05 am

Herms wrote:
Bussani wrote:To be honest, I think the guide's mention of it being multiplication is just a different way of saying "stronger than the sum of its parts."
Yeah, technically the actual paragraph only says that Potara fusion is so amazing that the increase in battle power is more like multiplication than addition. So technically you could say that it multiplies the two peoples' BP by 100 or something and that would still fall under multiplication. It's only the picture caption thingy that says "Goku x Vegeta=Vegetto".

Another problem with taking the caption literally is that when Goku is contemplating fusing with Satan, he says it will hardly increase his strength at all, or even make him weaker. But even if Satan is only as strong as the farmer, fusing with him would still make Goku 5 times stronger, a substantial increase. But I guess you could say that Goku doesn't know how the Potara work. But then wouldn't Elder Kaioshin tell him that fusing with anyone would make him much more powerful?

It's more a case of Toriyama's usual forgetfulness.
It does make more sense of using the "addition method" rather than multiplying them together.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:51 am

Shoryuken wrote:It does make more sense of using the "addition method" rather than multiplying them together.

But fusions are always stronger than the sum of their parts. Just adding two people together alone would be a bit pointless, since you're not really gaining anything. As Herms said, it might mean adding them together, then multiplying that by X. Maybe X varies depending on the compatibility of the two people, since Rou Kaioshin said that it didn't hurt that Goku and Vegeta lived to outdo each other.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:57 am

I think he was referring to adding the two power levels together and then giving them a multiplication, instead of just multiplicating the two power levels. Which makes a lot more sense, like I previously said.

How much it that multiplication can even vary from fusion to fusion depending on how much the fighters are compatible.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:08 am

rereboy wrote:I think he was referring to adding the two power levels together and then giving them a multiplication, instead of just multiplicating the two power levels. Which makes a lot more sense, like I previously said.

How much it that multiplication can even vary from fusion to fusion depending on how much the fighters are compatible.

Well, if so, that makes sense.

As I said earlier though, the whole 'multiplying one power by another' thing might work, depending on what units of measurements it assumes you use. But since we don't know that, there's no way to actually do the math. Not that there's any way to do the math with the other method, either... But that's probably for the best.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:09 am

Herms wrote:
Bussani wrote:To be honest, I think the guide's mention of it being multiplication is just a different way of saying "stronger than the sum of its parts."
Yeah, technically the actual paragraph only says that Potara fusion is so amazing that the increase in battle power is more like multiplication than addition. So technically you could say that it multiplies the two peoples' BP by 100 or something and that would still fall under multiplication. It's only the picture caption thingy that says "Goku x Vegeta=Vegetto".

Look at Goku's strength in Kiri at that time - 3000 in the first Super Saiya-jin level. So that's 6000 (SSJ2) then 24,000 (SSJ3). If we step into GT he becomes Super Saiya-jin 4 which I figure would probably increase SSJ3 6 (144,000 Kiri) or 8 (192,000) times.

Here's how I'd rank Vegeta and Goku

Vegeta
Base = 333.3
SSJ: 9x= 3000
SSJ2: 18x= 6000

Goku
Base = 1000
SSJ: 3x = 3000
SSJ2: 6x = 6000
SSJ3: 24x = 24,000
Golden Oozaru: 30x = 30,000
SSJ4: 144x = 144,000

Super Yi Xing Long = a lot more than 144,000

Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto
1000 x 333.33 = 333,300

almost makes sense, doesn't it?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:25 am

beast mode wrote:almost makes sense, doesn't it?

Uhhh...not to me, it seems. What are these numbers based on? And why is Vegeta's base so much lower than Goku's, but his SSJ boost is greater?

Post by **Herms** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:46 pm

Making it so that Vegetto/Gogeta comes out way stronger than the villian is easy. The problem with applying that sort of multiplication rule to a strict mathematical BP system (which I doubt it was ever intended to be) is making it so that Kibito-Kaioshin or Gotan wouldn't also come out much stronger than the villians or the other heroes.

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:44 pm

Bussani wrote:
beast mode wrote:almost makes sense, doesn't it?
Uhhh...not to me, it seems. What are these numbers based on? And why is Vegeta's base so much lower than Goku's, but his SSJ boost is greater?

Those were just numbers made up by me lmao, Goku's SSJ form is a lot less of a boost than it used to be so I thought of a list of things that could lower it and up his base

I'd think that learning each level (Full-power included) would bump Super Saiya-jin down 3x (and add to Goku's base strength) making SSJ a default of 18x (not quite close to the actual original 50x boost, yet a lot warmer to what Toriyama imagined)

Goku (Brackets = SSJ Multiplier after gaining said form)
SSJ (18x)
SSJ Grade 1 (15x)
SSJ Grade 2 (12x)
Full-Power SSJ (9x)
SSJ2 (6x)
SSJ3 (3x)

Vegeta
SSJ (SSJ=18x)
SSJ Grade 1 (SSJ=15x)
SSJ Grade 2 (SSJ=12x)
SSJ2 (SSJ=9x)

Vegeta's base is then 1/9 of 6000 or 333
Gohan's (pre Mystic/Ultimate/Whatever) base would be 1/24 of 5000 or 208
Gotenk's base = 200

this is just the way I try to make sense of individuals power, not something that anyone else can (or should) rely on (as I seem to remember Gotenks base being able to fight Buu pretty well, then again that fight was sorta a return to dragon ball's gag-manga routes - who knows)

Post by **Herms** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:04 pm

beast mode wrote: (as I seem to remember Gotenks base being able to fight Buu pretty well, then again that fight was sorta a return to dragon ball's gag-manga routes - who knows)

None of regular Gotenks' attack did any damage on evil Boo (and when Gotenks fought fat Boo, he got his clock cleaned).

beast mode · Post by **beast mode** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:11 pm

Ah, well I suppose 200ish makes sense then.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:08 pm

I was reading the guide (it's awesome btw) and I noticed something:
"Kami-sama: 220
This one is original to this chart, as far as I know. It's lower than Piccolo Daimao's, even though Kami-sama is supposed to be stronger than Daimao. Since all these figures are supposed to be during the battle with Vegeta, this number would only work if Kami-sama had gotten much weaker between Goku's battle with Piccolo Daimao and the battle with Vegeta."

Isn't Kami-sama only supposed to be stronger than old Piccolo, not young Piccolo?

Post by **Herms** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:18 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Isn't Kami-sama only supposed to be stronger than old Piccolo, not young Piccolo?

By "young Piccolo", do you mean young Piccolo Daimao or Ma Junior? If young Piccolo Daimao, then Kami is supposed to be stronger than Popo (according to Popo), and Goku was completely outclassed by Popo after he defeated young Piccolo Daimao. But Ma Junior is supposed to be stronger than Kami.