Glass Ceilings (Full Power Super Saiya-jin specifically)

[lash]

True... But Full Power is the last limit... After that they could improve, but not by huge gaps as before...

I take it as the limits of Super Saiyan in terms of power output. Not the limits of form. In other words, The SSJ form isn't going to get any stronger on its own. The normal state must get stronger in order for the SSJ form to get any stronger... no longer instead of just tapping into another grade state. The limit/highest power output=FPSSJ>SSJG3>SSJG2>SSJ. If they can find a way to train their already tough normal state forms efficiently, I think huge gains in the SSJ form are still plausible. In fact, I think that's what Goku did in the 7 years.

Of course... Isn't it more like: learning to use all SSJ can offer without wasting forces?
So, Full Power could be just the same as the Ascended but under control...


Full Power and Dai San Dankai are the same... But the first can use the max SSJ power without strain... The second reaches the same level but slowing and fatiguing the body...

Dai Ni Dankai is a compromise to keep the speed and the mobility raising the SSJ power used by a great amout anyway, while not the maximum...

Personally I don't think they are the same. In terms of battle power, SSJ1 and FPSSJ should be the same.
The FPSSJ power would be higher than SSJG3 when one momentarily raises his power(ex Goku's Kamehameha would be more powerful in his FPSSJ state than if he used it in SSJG3, SSJG2, or SSJ1). The extra power comes from reserves. Instead of pumping the extra Ki reserves to the muscles and becoming Grade 2 or Grade 3...wasting a majority of the energy just trying to maintain the form...the SSJ reverses it and utilizes it when needed. More powerful Ki attacks, perhaps at points of contact with an attack, or just for stamina, blah blah blah. Well, that's how I interpret the whole FPSSJ thing at least.

The fact is that Goku actually stopped the huge growth in Cell saga... After the 7 years he has improved, but not by that much... Nothing compared to what he did before...
That's what I mean with limit...

There's nothing really to suggest he didn't improve that much. Sure we can conclude he isn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell games in his FPSSJ state, but that's plenty of room in between that and his previous Cell games FPSSJ state anyway. His Kiri reading was 3,000. But we have absolutely nothing else to compare it to. Even Dabra's own statement of 4,000 kiri being nothing to him as someone mentioned, was anime exclusive.

[goldsaint13]

I take it as the limits of Super Saiyan in terms of power output. Not the limits of form. In other words, The SSJ form isn't going to get any stronger on its own. The normal state must get stronger in order for the SSJ form to get any stronger... no longer instead of just tapping into another grade state. The limit/highest power output=FPSSJ>SSJG3>SSJG2>SSJ. If they can find a way to train their already tough normal state forms efficiently, I think huge gains in the SSJ form are still plausible. In fact, I think that's what Goku did in the 7 years.

All right, that's clearly like this... But after the Zenkai stopped working, they hardly got huge improves in base form, beside those in the RoSaT but after that Goku said to have reached more or less his best... That's why in the following 7 years, even though being in the Otherworld, he didn't improve by a huge gap like he did in many occasions before...

Personally I don't think they are the same. In terms of battle power, SSJ1 and FPSSJ should be the same.

And the Ascended ones?

What are them?

Because Goku said: "Ascended SSJ is not the best way to draw out that power... We should control SSJ first..."

The FPSSJ power would be higher than SSJG3 when one momentarily raises his power(ex Goku's Kamehameha would be more powerful in his FPSSJ state than if he used it in SSJG3, SSJG2, or SSJ1). The extra power comes from reserves. Instead of pumping the extra Ki reserves to the muscles and becoming Grade 2 or Grade 3...wasting a majority of the energy just trying to maintain the form...the SSJ reverses it and utilizes it when needed. More powerful Ki attacks, perhaps at points of contact with an attack, or just for stamina, blah blah blah. Well, that's how I interpret the whole FPSSJ thing at least.

And is it not possible that the max power Goku can draw out as Full Power SSJ is the same as SSJ 3rd Grade in terms of Battle Power?

There's nothing really to suggest he didn't improve that much. Sure we can conclude he isn't stronger than SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell games in his FPSSJ state, but that's plenty of room in between that and his previous Cell games FPSSJ state anyway.

He is only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at Cell Games when he is also a SSJ2... This means that is SSJ1 is still not enough to defeat Perfect Cell...
This doesn't feel to be a big gap, he could have been half of Cell's power and now he could be like 3/4 of him but considering how and where he trained, it doesn't seem to be a big improve...

His Kiri reading was 3,000. But we have absolutely nothing else to compare it to. Even Dabra's own statement of 4,000 kiri being nothing to him as someone mentioned, was anime exclusive.

Dabra being above 4000 is quite fitting with the story... He is as strong as Super Perfect Cell and it takes a SSJ2 to fight him, although not necessarily one as strong as SSJ2 Goku (6000 Kili)... To me Dabra could be like 4800 Kili or something in the likes and it would fit well with Super Perfect Cell... Also SSJ2 Gohan should be around that, being weaker than he was at Cell Games (close to 6000 Kili)...

[Cipher]

Of course, there will always be slowdowns because, as someone already mentioned, training methods become less effective as you become accustomed to them.

But I don't believe in any sort of unbreakable limits to power, where you've hit a wall either within a particular form or in general that you can never pass.

This is generally the stance I hold on the series. There's never any indication that they can reach a point at which they can't increase their power anymore; especially given how much strength owes itself to ki-manipulation.

But it's kind of ludicrous when people say things like, "Goku trained for ten years! He must be so much stronger!" At a certain point, training on Earth (or even high-gravity planets and other dimensions) ceases to hold much of an impact for the characters. It'd be like a body-builder doing a few reps of thirty sit-ups every day. So, sure, Goku and others may improve over periods like the 10-year time-skip, but how substantially? Really, they're just staying in shape.

But I don't think it's strange to assume that the Saiyans are around Freeza's level in base by the time the Boo arc rolls around. We don't see them fight in base form at the Cell Games, but if their Super Saiyan strengths had improved that much, their base forms must have as well. (Super Saiyan being a multiplier and all; you can't just get stronger in one specific form, from everything the series/supplemental material indicates.)

So, there's not a hard-and-fast limit per say, and I think the Saiyans do get quite powerful even in base form. But I really have to assume they kind of plateau after the Boo arc for lack of viable training methods.

[lash]

All right, that's clearly like this... But after the Zenkai stopped working, they hardly got huge improves in base form, beside those in the RoSaT but after that Goku said to have reached more or less his best... That's why in the following 7 years, even though being in the Otherworld, he didn't improve by a huge gap like he did in many occasions before...



Because Goku said: "Ascended SSJ is not the best way to draw out that power... We should control SSJ first..."

Near Death powers may have just been infrequent, not abolished. And Goku always says he has hit his limit. Then what happens the next hour, day, or year? He surpasses that. Most times...by a large amount too.


Goku didn't exactly say that. He pretty much implied both grade forms are useless, and that the basic SSJ state is the best balance.

And is it not possible that the max power Goku can draw out as Full Power SSJ is the same as SSJ 3rd Grade in terms of Battle Power?

Normally to fight? Doubt it. Otherwise you'd have just seen Goku with SSJG3 inflated muscles as he fought Cell, I'd think.

He is only slightly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan at Cell Games when he is also a SSJ2... This means that is SSJ1 is still not enough to defeat Perfect Cell...
This doesn't feel to be a big gap, he could have been half of Cell's power and now he could be like 3/4 of him but considering how and where he trained, it doesn't seem to be a big improve...

Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan's Ki was further increased by anger/losing his reasoning. Just because SSJ2 Goku is slightly stronger than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, doesn't automatically mean Goku's own SSJ state isn't far above Cell Games SSJ Gohan's own.

[goldsaint13]

Lost post

[goldsaint13]

Near Death powers may have just been infrequent, not abolished.

It's not significant anymore...

And Goku always says he has hit his limit. Then what happens the next hour, day, or year? He surpasses that. Most times...by a large amount too.

But he doesn't between Cell's and Buu's saga, not by much at least, considering it was the hardest training of his life/afterlife...

Or you may say he did, but only thanks to not one but two new transformations... Not in his base and SSJ forms...

Goku didn't exactly say that. He pretty much implied both grade forms are useless, and that the basic SSJ state is the best balance.

Balance but maybe also the same power used correctly... Because Full Power is stronger than 2nd and 3rd grade, or is at least as strong as 3rd grade but without those limits...

Normally to fight? Doubt it. Otherwise you'd have just seen Goku with SSJG3 inflated muscles as he fought Cell, I'd think.

Maybe you don't see it because he keep the control of that huge Ki and his body is not overcharged by it...

How could you explain about Full Power so high strength?

Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan's Ki was further increased by anger/losing his reasoning. Just because SSJ2 Goku is slightly stronger than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, doesn't automatically mean Goku's own SSJ state isn't far above Cell Games SSJ Gohan's own.

SSJ2 Goku is slightly above SSJ2 enraged Gohan... It means that as much as Gohan needed SSJ2 to overcome Cell, the same would need Goku, so despite his training, his SSJ1 is still below Perfect Cell as it was before... He is closer to him to the point that Cell may need to fight seriously to defeat SSJ1 Goku this time, but it doesn't seem a big gap... Not for 7 years of afterlife training at least...