Glass Ceilings (Full Power Super Saiya-jin specifically)

[Haseowolf]

When Goku and the others are given time to prepare for the Cell Games, Goku is asked if both and Gohan will train in the Room of Spirit and Time again. He responds that it would be a waste of time as the results would not be worth the effort. So yeah, they mastered Super Saiya-jin to a point of being in constant Full Power Super Saiya-jin form.

Is this true from here on out? Being in a "mastered" state would imply that there is nothing left for this form in terms of advancing it.

It seems as if we get new transformations when the characters need to be stronger RIGHT NOW, but are stronger in weaker forms down the road since they have had time to develop them.

In the transformation guide here on DaizEX, Mike has written that, "There is no indication that either Goku and/or Gohan have reached their "maximum power" while in this stage; in fact, that's quite an outlandish claim to make. There is always room for improvement. Goku and Gohan do indeed grow stronger with time, pushing the Super Saiyan stage to its limits time and time again."

This would imply that it wasn't mastered and that they do improve it later on, but what is the basis of this, exactly?

When Goku faces off against Yakon, he knows that he doesn't have to take this seriously, so I'm not sure how to interpret this, yet his transformation is stripped off of him (this is probably due to surprise, not strength of the form). Even so, we get a reading that his power is 3000 kiri. Comparing this to Dabura, with a reading of 4,000 kiri, we know that at the strength he was exhibiting at the time of transformation was indeed weaker than Dabura.

This makes sense as Dabura's ki is likened to Perfect Cell, who Goku did not/could not defeat.

So Goku trained all this time between the Cell Games and the Boo arc and his strength relation to someone as strong as Cell shows that his power may not have been improved in that form at all.

With these different measures of power, with Goku not outputting his max energy in his Super Saiya-jin state,its hard to know how the correspond to each other. Nevertheless, I hypothesize that these forms actually do have power caps for each individual and, seeing as how the Boo arc is the last canon arc, this is as strong as Goku's Super Saiya-jin form gets.

What do you all think? Do these transformations, Super Saiya-jin for example, have a glass ceiling at some point? Or can they constantly be improved upon?

[Raki]

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about the "Saiyan" glass ceiling that exists on DBZ.

[Haseowolf]

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about the "Saiyan" glass ceiling that exists on DBZ.

Sorry, I must be super dense right now, but I don't think I get it >.>

[Raki]

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about the "Saiyan" glass ceiling that exists on DBZ.

Sorry, I must be super dense right now, but I don't think I get it >.>

It gets to the point in the show that if you aren't a Saiyan, you are useless.

[Haseowolf]

It gets to the point in the show that if you aren't a Saiyan, you are useless.

Ah yes, right right. I get ya. That, too, is indeed a shame. Yamucha gets no love.

[Bussani]

In another thread we talked some about this. It's not exactly the same topic, but you might find it interesting.

They did 'master' Super Saiyan, in that they weren't wasting energy constantly while using it. They were in full control, and their power was calm when they weren't using it. That's what 'Full Power Super Saiyan' means. Their base power can evidently. still continue to grow stronger, and we see Goku training in both his base and Super Saiyan forms later.

The question is, why did Goku think he'd reached the limits of what training in the Room of Spirit and Time could get him? I suppose it could be like saying, if you do the same sit-ups every day, you won't get stronger. They might have outgrown the Room of Spirit and Time, so to speak.

Also, as Goku explains it, everything is hard in the room. The air, gravity and temperatures are completely different to Earth and stressful. Overcoming them can give great strength boosts, but pushing yourself through them for too long might do more harm than good after a certain point.

Edit: Yamcha never really won a fight even before the show became all about Saiyans.

[Kroni_Hunter]

Edit: Yamcha never really won a fight even before the show became all about Saiyans.

He beat up a bunch of baseball players

[Bussani]

Edit: Yamcha never really won a fight even before the show became all about Saiyans.

He beat up a bunch of baseball players

Not only is it sad that this is one of the only examples of him winning a fight, but to make it worse, it's filler only.

[Haseowolf]

The question is, why did Goku think he'd reached the limits of what training in the Room of Spirit and Time could get him? I suppose it could be like saying, if you do the same sit-ups every day, you won't get stronger. They might have outgrown the Room of Spirit and Time, so to speak.

I can only assume two things: 1. Goku was so confident in Gohan's abilities that he felt that it was more important to live like normal people together than to gain even more strength and completely dominate Cell, leaving no fun or challenge left.

2. Toriyama was maybe hoping to end the series after this arc and with no more story to go, why have room for improvement?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think the 1st option is more likely, honestly.

Goku saw some of Gohan's power began to awaken in the rosat, and he later claims this is their only chance at beating Cell. I honestly think the vigors of the room, along with Gohan's potential, were enough to seal the deal for him. They advanced a ton, so there was no point. Might as well let the lesser guys get the extra time while you rest and prepare.

[Rocketman]

It gets to the point in the show that if you aren't a Saiyan, you are useless.

There's a million other fictions that star all humans all the time. There's only one with Saiyans.

[goldsaint13]

That's what I have been saying for the last few posts in another topic...

Goku clearly reached his limits in Cell's saga... I'm not saying that he didn't improve AT ALL but he will never get much stronger...

Actually, in Buu's saga he is still weaker than Perfect Cell as a SSJ1 but reached a power a bit stronger than Cell Games enraged Gohan that was stronger than him even when calm, 7 years before...

Dabra is more like Super Perfect Cell than Perfect Cell, but I guess Goku was about the likes of 2000 Kili back at Cell Games... So he improved a bit but nothing significant... Not counting the new transformations of course...



About Full Power...

Couldn't it be simply a controlled form for the Ascended transformations?

Maybe the Ascended transformations are a way to use the max power of the SSJ but in a way that wastes the most energy... Goku, Gohan and all the SSJs of the Buu's saga learned to use all their SSJ1 power without any fatigue...
That's why Super Trunks and SSJ1 FP Goku are both in the ranges of a portion of Perfect Cell's power but Goku can really fight him while Trunks can't...

If Ascended forms and Full Power are nothing more than SSJ1 used in different manners, then it could be it...

[Herms]

Comparing this to Dabura, with a reading of 4,000 kiri

Keep in mind that Dabra is some unknown but significant amount above 4,000 kiri: he just says 4,000 kiri isn't enough to defeat him (and this is an anime-only line).

2. Toriyama was maybe hoping to end the series after this arc and with no more story to go, why have room for improvement?

Rumors of Toriyama planning to end the series at the Cell arc are greatly exaggerated. Anyway, the Boo arc ended up being the actual ended up being the final story arc but we don't see any talk of people reaching their limits or having no room for improvement. Well, Super Saiyan 3 is called the "limit" in a chapter title, but it's pretty clear Goku doesn't have much of a handle on that form yet. And he trains 10 years after that, so he must have had somewhere to improve.

[Fox666]

When Goku faces off against Yakon, he knows that he doesn't have to take this seriously, so I'm not sure how to interpret this, yet his transformation is stripped off of him (this is probably due to surprise, not strength of the form). Even so, we get a reading that his power is 3000 kiri. Comparing this to Dabura, with a reading of 4,000 kiri, we know that at the strength he was exhibiting at the time of transformation was indeed weaker than Dabura.

Cell wasn't using all of his strength while fighting Goku. After Gohan transforms in Super Saiyan 2, Cell increase his Ki and Goku is surprised by it.

[Kaboom]

Speaking from a power levels perspective, the Super Saiyan forms are just multipliers. If you get stronger in your normal state, then you'll be stronger as a Super Saiyan 1/2/3/(4) as a result, and vice-versa.

Of course, there will always be slowdowns because, as someone already mentioned, training methods become less effective as you become accustomed to them. That's what I think Goku meant; attaining Full-Power Super Saiyan and training in the Room of Spirit and Time may have granted him and Gohan some explosive growth for a while, but eventually they got used to it and it wasn't doing them any notable good anymore, hence why continuing to use the room was pointless.

But I don't believe in any sort of unbreakable limits to power, where you've hit a wall either within a particular form or in general that you can never pass.

[Rocketman]

There's a difference between "having no limits and still room to improve" and "improving SUPER ULTRA CHICKEN FAST" that I think most fans don't get.

[goldsaint13]

Anyway, the Boo arc ended up being the actual ended up being the final story arc but we don't see any talk of people reaching their limits or having no room for improvement. Well, Super Saiyan 3 is called the "limit" in a chapter title, but it's pretty clear Goku doesn't have much of a handle on that form yet. And he trains 10 years after that, so he must have had somewhere to improve.

Of course Goku has improved, but mostly in learning to keep his SSJ3 probably... He could get better in base form, but not by much... He didn't surpass Perfect Cell as a SSJ1 even in the 7 years of the Otherworld training... He couldn't do better in 10 years on Earth...

Cell wasn't using all of his strength while fighting Goku. After Gohan transforms in Super Saiyan 2, Cell increase his Ki and Goku is surprised by it.

I assume it was half of his strength...

Of course, there will always be slowdowns because, as someone already mentioned, training methods become less effective as you become accustomed to them. That's what I think Goku meant; attaining Full-Power Super Saiyan and training in the Room of Spirit and Time may have granted him and Gohan some explosive growth for a while, but eventually they got used to it and it wasn't doing them any notable good anymore, hence why continuing to use the room was pointless.

But I don't believe in any sort of unbreakable limits to power, where you've hit a wall either within a particular form or in general that you can never pass.

Of course they could improve, but while Gohan limits are hard to find, Goku's limits where already close in Cell's saga... He got better in Buu's saga but he is still weaker than Cell as SSJ1 and the training in the Otherworld is more effective than the one in the RoSaT...
Goku got incredibly stronger only thanks to the new SSJ forms, not by much in base form...

There's a difference between "having no limits and still room to improve" and "improving SUPER ULTRA CHICKEN FAST" that I think most fans don't get.

That's what I meant... Goku can improve, but he would hardly reach even Perfect Cell as a SSJ1... Assuming he was 1/2 of Perfect Cell at Cell Games and mybe 3/4 in Buu's saga... So to say...

I think that Perfect Cell is 4000 Kili and Cell Games SSJ1 Goku 2000 Kili... In Buu's saga he reached 3000 Kili, but it's not a huge growth compared to the intensity of the training...

[Travis Touchdown]

I always thought they did have "glass ceilings" as you put it Haesowolf. I agree with you based on Gohan. Gohan's "Mystic" form was all of his power brought out into his base form. As a guide here on Daizex puts it, turning into a Super Saiyan would just waste his ki. I believe transforming into a SSJ2 comes from finally reaching and breaking through the SSJ limit.

"So why do they continue to use SSJ if they can just go SSJ2?"

Well, I don't think any of their base powers are around 150,000,000 during the crisis of Buu which would make SSJ a useful form for them to use. Perhaps, and here's total fanon from me, SSJ2 puts enough strain on the body that it can't be mastered to feel normal in the same way that SSJ can.

[lash]

Actually...

I do think there is a glass ceiling, in the sense that they are limits which can just be broken through with enough time and conditions. In fact I think they hit one(Vegeta especially) before they went in the Room of Spirit and Time.

The term "mastered super saiyan" isn't ever used in the series or noted in anything official. I don't think they ever "mastered" the form...as in bringing out everything it will ever offer powerwise in the series. Unless you're Ultimate Gohan...I don't think it's even possible.

The folks in Drgaonball always say they hit their limits. Then the next day break it like it's no big deal. This is a reoccurring pattern in Dragonball. I see no reason why this case is any different. If Goku trained, during those 7 years...I see no reason not to believe his normal and Super Saiyan state grew along with him while doing otherworld training. I don't believe in concrete ceilings, but I certainly believe in glass ones.

[CODii]

The term "mastered super saiyan" isn't ever used in the series or noted in anything official. I don't think they ever "mastered" the form...as in bringing out everything it will ever offer powerwise in the series. Unless you're Ultimate Gohan...I don't think it's even possible.

I believe the "official" term (mentioned in the Daizenshuu) is "Supa-Saiyajin Furu-Pawaa" (or something very similar to that) or "Full Power Super Saiyan" in English. I don't think that this means they are at the full power this stage could possibly have. Rather I think the full power means that they are able to use their full power available to them at the time because they aren't being held back by that uneasiness that the form originally caused.

It's important to note that while "Full Power Super Saiyan" is almost as official as a term can get by virtue of being in the Daizenshuu, I don't believe Goku or anyone else says in the manga that he is as strong as he could possibly be as a SSj in this form.