Dragonball GT BGM

[Savage68]

Whether Menza's music is good is irrelevant. It is not the original score and was composed with the idea of the series being something it is not in mind.

This is probably the worst point that people bring up in BGM debates. The music as BGM is completely different from the music on a CD.

The original score simply did not do every single scene better. To think this would entail being that 'w******' word I hate so much.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Whether Menza's music is good is irrelevant. It is not the original score and was composed with the idea of the series being something it is not in mind.

This is probably the worst point that people bring up in BGM debates. The music as BGM is completely different from the music on a CD.

The original score simply did not do every single scene better. To think this would entail being that 'w******' word I hate so much.

I know you hate it, but what exactly is the "w" word?

[Savage68]

Weeaboo.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Thanks, I know what a weeaboo is, it just didn't come to my mind at the time.

I do agree with you though, the original did not do every scene better and some scenes are just downright bad.

[LilKokuLink]

Please. You can barely consider anything Mark Menza or Bruce Faulconer to even be "music". It's just a lot of noise arranged so that it sometimes resembles it. In order to be music, it actually has to be musical.

I prefer the dub... so you may not be surprised when I say Bruce Faulconer is amazing. I don't think Bruce Faulconer's songs had to be more like a "musical", a lot of the songs in albums blended into one another when listening in order, and adding the names of the song it kind of portrays a story. An example: Vegeta's Theme --> Vegeta Powers Up --> Vegeta Super Saiyan, they all link into one another and I'm sure you can see a relevant story from it. That's what a "musical" is isn't it? Telling a story through music?
I like the Japanese BGM for DBZ too, I've got the 5 disc collection and it's amazing! The thing with the Japanese is that, their songs are more consistent, I can safely say that there are no bad songs. However Faulconer only has his good songs, but the rest are just a pile of crap... an example: Cell at Carnival... shocking. However, that never turned me away because the songs that were good... were REALLY GOOD.
Baring in mind... I only love Bruce Faulconer when I'm listening to it on it's own on the CD, or specific scenes such as Final Flash, Goku goes super saiyan 3 etc. Otherwise I really do think the Japanese score will fit it best (nothing beats the original, right?). As BGM's in my view, Akihito Tokunaga ripped apart everyone else, shame it had to be for GT though.
I just want to say, you know how some people are annoyed when people ask you why you like dbz cos the dub was so "bad" at some places? It's the same principle with Bruce Faulconer for me here, I only like the good bits! Out of 200 odd tracks, I listen to about 50..? Still it doesn't make me change dubs.

[VegettoEX]

Whether Menza's music is good is irrelevant. It is not the original score and was composed with the idea of the series being something it is not in mind.

This is probably the worst point that people bring up in BGM debates. The music as BGM is completely different from the music on a CD.

The original score simply did not do every single scene better. To think this would entail being that 'w******' word I hate so much.

I'm intrigued by your apparent dislike of the term "weeaboo", and then how quick you are to turn right around on that and accuse someone of being it for thinking that the original Japanese score is superior to the replacement score from FUNimation.

Why does someone have to be a screaming "KAWAII BOKU WA FANBOY DESU YO!" twit in order for them to be among the near-universal group that has no interest what-so-ever in Menza's replacement score and sees it as nothing but a failure?

It's the same thing as with Faulconer's score back when it was relevant -- where were you people to come to its defense? You didn't exist then, so where on Earth are you coming from now? Look through the annals of Internet history and find me a consistent, vocal, and timely group of fans that ever said a single positive thing about that musical score. Seriously. I defy you to do so.

Is it the same situation as with Faulconer, where they were so young and impressionable that they simply had no reason to ever hop online into the debate? That they knew nothing else, so they sat back and took it? And now when they find a vocal majority that thinks otherwise, they hop into overly-defensive mode and seek some way to justify their opinions by attacking everyone else?

(RE: "justification" -- sure, you could say the same thing about fans of the original Japanese score... but we've got the rest of the world and their adaptations to justify it for us)

I mean, seriously... there's a big difference between "preference" and "you're an idiot if you think this". You know how big we are on trying to stray away from that kind of absolutely bullshit. I'll call it when I see it. If you want to sit and provide a few concrete examples of why and how you think the original Japanese score doesn't work (musical cues out of place, tone that doesn't match)... I mean, that's a great discussion to be had. Blanket statements telling people they're morons? C'mon. Seriously? On this forum? Let's not. That goes for all of you, regardless of your preference.

(I know some of my comments in this very post come across that way, but it's true -- there has been little-to-no support ever for Menza's GT score, and to see rabid fanboyness come out of nowhere with insults as their only opinion-base, that's pretty crazy.)

[LilKokuLink]

Mike's comment made me like.. cry lmao. Fair play.

[Savage68]

I'm intrigued by your apparent dislike of the term "weeaboo", and then how quick you are to turn right around on that and accuse someone of being it for thinking that the original Japanese score is superior to the replacement score from FUNimation.

I didn't do this at all.

Besides the fact that I'm one of the last you'd ever see defending the FUNi BGM, or preferring it over the original, I still never went nearly as far as this. Others were using the silly reason of 'because it came first, that means it was better' and making the FUNi BGM seem worse than it actually was, which may look even dumber than a FUNi fanboy attempting to bash the original score because Faulconer's is 'hardcore and edgier'.

[penguintruth]

Even if you, for whatever reason, believe Menza's "music" is fits every scene better than the Japanese GT music, isn't that the fault of the person who placed the music, not the person who composed it? Even Kikuchi's score wasn't utilized perfectly all the time. That isn't Kikuchi's fault.

But, personally, I think the Japanese GT music was placed better than a lot of Kikuchi's score. And you don't get sudden restarts of a track like in Z.

For especially the first few episodes of GT, that score is absolutely perfect for the show and well-utilized. Like I said, it's not Kikuchi, but it works for GT. And it's actually musical, even if it gets a little too music box-ish at times. It has this sort of mid-to-late-nineties Japanese RPG video game quality, but it also fit television animation.

I'm surprised Tokunaga hasn't gotten more work.

[JulieYBM]

I'm intrigued by your apparent dislike of the term "weeaboo", and then how quick you are to turn right around on that and accuse someone of being it for thinking that the original Japanese score is superior to the replacement score from FUNimation.

I didn't do this at all.

Besides the fact that I'm one of the last you'd ever see defending the FUNi BGM, or preferring it over the original, I still never went nearly as far as this. Others were using the silly reason of 'because it came first, that means it was better' and making the FUNi BGM seem worse than it actually was, which may look even dumber than a FUNi fanboy attempting to bash the original score because Faulconer's is 'hardcore and edgier'.

But nothing I said was factually incorrect.

[Savage68]

I wasn't citing your comment so much as some the others'.

[VegettoEX]

I didn't do this at all.

You most absolutely did. It's just a couple posts up:

The original score simply did not do every single scene better. To think this would entail being that 'w******' word I hate so much.

Just because you didn't say, "Hey you... Jacob... you're a weeaboo" doesn't make your claim any less blatant. You flat-out stated that if someone held this opinion, they are what you hate. That's one Hell of a blanket to lay on fandom.

Besides the fact that I'm one of the last you'd ever see defending the FUNi BGM, or preferring it over the original, I still never went nearly as far as this. Others were using the silly reason of 'because it came first, that means it was better' and making the FUNi BGM seem worse than it actually was, which may look even dumber than a FUNi fanboy attempting to bash the original score because Faulconer's is 'hardcore and edgier'.

Why didn't you just say this, then? You clearly went out of your way to lay some insults out there, and now you're back-peddling on it.

I don't see anything wrong with the "It came first, so it's better" train of thought. Not only does someone have an opinion, but they have a factual piece of information that they're using to form that opinion (one musical score did, in fact, come first). Just because you don't like their reasoning doesn't make it any less real. You can agree to disagree and still be a civil person, ya' know. You can point out how you think that may not be the best evidence for a claim. You can point out counter-examples.

But you didn't do a single one of those things.

[Savage68]

Just because you didn't say, "Hey you... Jacob... you're a weeaboo" doesn't make your claim any less blatant. You flat-out stated that if someone held this opinion, they are what you hate. That's one Hell of a blanket to lay on fandom.

Yes...if you honestly think the original score got no scenes whatsoever wrong, and that no dub, whether it be FUNi or otherwise - ever topped it at one point or another, in one aspect or another.

Just because you don't like their reasoning doesn't make it any less real.

I don't like it because I don't see how it makes the most sense to assume that only the original version of a show is the best, solely because of that fact. If that were the case, most of the FUNi-dubbed anime besides DBZ that are hailed as being superior to the original versions actually aren't better because of the sheer fact that they only followed behind another version.

[VegettoEX]

Yes...if you honestly think the original score got no scenes whatsoever wrong, and that no dub, whether it be FUNi or otherwise - ever topped it at one point or another, in one aspect or another.

OK. I'm crazy. I'm a weeaboo. I'm an idiot. I don't think that at any point in time what-so-ever did FUNimation's dub of DragonBall GT surpass or even closely match the original in terms of music.

And I don't even like the show, so that's as unbiased as you're going to get from a DragonBall fan.

Where do you want to go from here?

I don't like it because I don't see how it makes the most sense to assume that only the original version of a show is the best, solely because of that fact. If that were the case, most of the FUNi-dubbed anime besides DBZ that are hailed as being superior to the original versions actually aren't better because of the sheer fact that they only followed behind another version.

Called such primarily by people who prefer dubs, anyway, in the first place. What's your point? We get it. Modern North American anime fans prefer dubs and they'll do anything they can to justify why they're watching it in English, including proclaiming them superior to the original Japanese version.

You'll have an opposite side ready to claim the opposite, but you're just not reading what they say. And when you do? Welp, here come the "weeaboo" comments and a complete disregard for any reasoning they have. See yourself above.

And don't even try the "you just hate dubs" line. For realz.

[penguintruth]

Forgive me if I don't get the reasoning behind the term, but doesn't "weeaboo" (a word filter for "Wapanese") imply a preference for everything Japanese based purely on it being Japanese?

I think "weeaboo" means as little as "emo" has come to mean. It's a dismissive term people use in the place of actual arguments. I think some people who use it are above using it but do so out of laziness.

I think it takes some real mental gymnastics to assume I'm some rabid Japanophile based on me preferring the Japanese score to the American score. I'm not some person who overcompensates for their love for anime by hating everything else Japanese, either, like the folks at 4chan. I really don't know enough about that entire country to make any big judgements on it.

[VegettoEX]

Forgive me if I don't get the reasoning behind the term, but doesn't "weeaboo" (a word filter for "Wapanese") imply a preference for everything Japanese based purely on it being Japanese?

I think "weeaboo" means as little as "emo" has come to mean. It's a dismissive term people use in the place of actual arguments. I think some people who use it are above using it but do so out of laziness.

I think it takes some real mental gymnastics to assume I'm some rabid Japanophile based on me preferring the Japanese score to the American score. I'm not some person who overcompensates for their love for anime by hating everything else Japanese, either, like the folks at 4chan. I really don't know enough about that entire country to make any big judgements on it.

You pretty much nailed it. I've yet to see (at least on this forum, since I venture outside so little) a valid argument based around tossing the "weeaboo" comment out there.

And to add on to that -- isn't it weird that people who are into anime (which is... ya' know... Japanese), like to fling pejorative terms at each other because of how Japanese their peers like something? Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

I'll agree that there can be limits on what one should be expected to tolerate in terms of fanaticism, but a complete dismissal of someone because they legitimately prefer the original score, which the entire rest of the world saw fit to keep, instead of one country's replacement? Wow. If you like Menza, cool -- you've come out of nowhere, and you're the first of your kind. You're a mutant! Don't expect justification.

[Savage68]

^You're right. Let me know when you run into one of those losers.

OK. I'm crazy. I'm a weeaboo. I'm an idiot. I don't think that at any point in time what-so-ever did FUNimation's dub of DragonBall GT surpass or even closely match the original in terms of music.

And I don't even like the show, so that's as unbiased as you're going to get from a DragonBall fan.

Where do you want to go from here?

I've been talking about FUNi's BGM for the entire series(Z/GT) for a while now.

Modern North American anime fans prefer dubs and they'll do anything they can to justify why they're watching it in English, including proclaiming them superior to the original Japanese version.

You'll have an opposite side ready to claim the opposite, but you're just not reading what they say. And when you do? Welp, here come the "weeaboo" comments and a complete disregard for any reasoning they have. See yourself above.

So, if a dub is better, regardless of reasoning, it's because of nothing less than bias and subjective reasoning.

But if the original is better, it's just because it's better. Being the first version and all. This is what you're saying?

And don't even try the "you just hate dubs" line. For realz.

I don't care if anyone hates dubs or not. Plenty of people can come to conclusion of a certain version of a show being superior or inferior without compromising whatever their personal preferences may be.

[VegettoEX]

^You're right. Let me know when you run into one of those losers.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not putting you down. I'm explaining that you're rare, and you're going to have a tough time finding support. I'd love to hear your reasonings for forming that opinion, but near as I can tell, it's based on (1) you don't think that the original Japanese score nailed every single last scene, and therefore (2) Menza's score, overall, is better.

So, if a dub is better, regardless of reasoning, it's because of nothing less than bias and subjective reasoning.

But if the original is better, it's just because it's better. Being the first version and all. This is what you're saying?

One's got a leg-up over the other, that's for sure. Ignoring that all of these products are commercial ventures created for the sole purpose of making money, the "original" (whether it's Japanese anime, Italian opera, German cinema, etc.) has a specific artistic vision behind it. The people who actually made the damn thing had the first say it what it should sound like, who should make those sounds, how it should be drawn, how it should be directed, etc.

No adaptation (an anime dub or otherwise) can say that. They're still taking someone else's work and making a new product with it.

Can that "new" product be good? Can it have fans? Sure! You exist, after all. Robotech also exists. There's always going to be a fascinating quality about "the original" though, and it's a quality that can't ever be pin-pointed in perfect words. It is because it is. It was first. It's "the" version. That's what someone set out to make, and that's how most people throughout the world prefer to view things -- as was originally intended -- language, music, or otherwise.

[MCDaveG]

My opinion and mental gymnastic was like that: Combination of script made like for children, more inconsistent then Z ever was (Put the green brick in and turn on English dub and Japanese subtitles) + the fact, that Menza's score for GT was like sitting around camp fire and plunking some random arrangements on Spanish Guitar. I always felt asleep from this combination. There aren't even any memorable pieces of music, like in GT, where everybody is remembering the recapitulation Dan Dan theme or those build up fanfares during tight scenes (and used in 10th Anniversary as Red Ribbon Army theme).

I'm a big enemy of the dubs, I don't like US and European dubs of Asian stuff and vice versa......
It's pretty weird to see Europeans and US-ers speaking in Japanese, what's more in Los Angeles for example....

I'm watching things in original audio, because that's the way the movies and TV shows are build to be watch in production.
Menza's music in GT totally killed this damned series more then it was before. Replacing classic orchestral score with lazy guitar ballads?? That's joke or they mean it, because I think that these alternates to original content should be viewed as curiosity. It's like replace the music in Star wars from John Williams by some techno rave instead......

[Savage68]

I'd love to hear your reasonings for forming that opinion, but near as I can tell, it's based on (1) you don't think that the original Japanese score nailed every single last scene, and therefore (2) Menza's score, overall, is better.

The first one is correct, but Menza's score being better? It was as much of a joke as they come.

One's got a leg-up over the other, that's for sure. Ignoring that all of these products are commercial ventures created for the sole purpose of making money, the "original" (whether it's Japanese anime, Italian opera, German cinema, etc.) has a specific artistic vision behind it. The people who actually made the damn thing had the first say it what it should sound like, who should make those sounds, how it should be drawn, how it should be directed, etc.

No adaptation (an anime dub or otherwise) can say that. They're still taking someone else's work and making a new product with it.

That doesn't mean that every and all changes made after the fact will be for the worse. Original anime scores screw up from time to time, and dubs screw up from time to time, as well. If we're talking about an anime that was dubbed sometime in the 90's, sure, expecting for it to be a crappy adaptation isn't surprising.

But now, dubbing companies like FUNi and Ocean take the liberty to actually realize that wrecking a series to change it's target demographic or what have you isn't the way to go, and instead opt to leave everything, or near everything intact. Any changes they do make are usually either insignificant, or for the better. Otherwise, they wouldn't make them. There would be no reason to. It's not like they're burdened with having to Westernize all of their series anymore.

Dubs these days are far above and beyond what dubs used to be because they aren't so dependent on broadcast or cable t.v. to become popular, and less and less stupid alterations to names, scripts, BGM, etc. are being implemented.