Which type of fusion can increase power more?

[Savage68]

He was regarded useful by everyone in the upcoming fight against Kid Buu and Kibitoshin was not. Thats why Goku and Vegeta stayed to fight and Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioshin left.

And they obviously didn't have a clue of Buu's actual strength at that point, because if they did, they would know that there was no way in hell for anyone weaker than SSJ3 Goku to seriously battle Kid Buu. Vegeta's confidence in himself that he had any chance of winning against Buu was proved to be a huge miscalculation only on his part, since Goku started his fight with SSJ3 and a Kamehameha. Even back on Earth, Kid Buu created a ki blast that Goku (someone who can turn SSJ3 in an instant) could not stop. So, Vegeta being left behind to fight Buu while Kibitoshin departed was nothing more than a silly plot device.

And really, Kibitoshin didn't have any choice but to leave. His duty was to transport the Old Kai and Dende away from the Kaioshinkai, and once he did that, he didn't have enough energy remaining to use IT again. Even if he wanted to.

[rereboy]

Read my edit to my last post

Regarding the energy to teleport, I find that hard to believe and I don`t remember it being stated anywhere. He only got too weak to teleport once he gave his own energy to the Genki dama. Before that he was fine. He even teleported to some planet before teleporting to Namek. If his only concern was his elder and Dende, and if he thought he could do at least as well as Vegeta agaisnt Kid Buu, he could just leave them on that planet and teleport back to where Goku and Vegeta were.

But anyway, my estimate of Kibitoshin`s power being the same as SSJ2 Vegeta is the lowest possible outcome that I can think up if the potara work as a multiplication. Like I said, anything short of SSJ3 Goku power is almost impossible, if not really impossible if the potara really works that way.

[Savage68]

Regarding the energy to teleport, I find that hard to believe and I don`t remember it being stated anywhere. He only got too weak to teleport once he gave his own energy to the Genki dama. Before that he was fine. He even teleported to some planet before teleporting to Namek. If his only concern was his elder and Dende, and if he thought he could do at least as well as Vegeta agaisnt Kid Buu, he could just leave them on that planet and teleport back to where Goku and Vegeta were.

I know. That's because he didn't think he could do anything against Buu. He's too weak. Vegeta also was unable to do anything against Kid Buu, because he was too weak. Everyone but Vegeta seemed to realize how powerful Kid Buu was, and his confidence was clearly false. You can't say Kibitoshin's weaker than Vegeta because he wasn't a moron and decided to fight against someone that's his superior. Vegeta was the moron there.

"Alright. Time to see how tough this guy really is. I know he's stronger than the Fat Buu...the guy I used every ounce of my power on in a vain attempt to defeat. And that failed. And I'm not stronger now than I was then. And just a few moments ago, this new "Kid" Buu created a ki blast that was incapable of being stopped by a Super Saiyan 3. But I'll fight anyways, roffle! Get out of here Kaioshin, and let the big boys handle this!"

Doesn't make sense. Vegeta was owned by Buu, just as anyone else weaker than SSJ3 Goku would be. If Kibitoshin being weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta is the lowest possible estimate, why not say he's weaker than SSJ2 Kid Gohan? Or SSJ2 Teen Gohan? Or SPC? This conclusion seems to be completely arbitrary, since the scene in question doesn't really prove anything in terms of a power comparison.

[rereboy]

You are completely missing the point...

Even if you don`t agree that the situation means that Kibitoshin is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta (which I don`t agree but since this isn`t the point I`ll drop it) I`ve already stated that its almost impossible for Kibitoshin to be weaker than SSJ3 if not truly impossible if the potara work that way.

Kaioshin`s power was comparable to Piccolo`s power or even stronger and Piccolo`s power was comparable to the power of the base state of Gohan, Vegeta and Goku. That means that if Piccolo got a power up that made him 500 times stronger, he would be comparable to or surpass SSJ3 Goku.

If the potara is truly a multiplication, then its almost impossible or even really impossible for Kibitoshin to not be 500 times stronger than Kaioshin, considering than Kibito`s power was at least as strong as a thousand average humans (for example, Nappa`s power).

Therefore, in the most likely scenario he would always be useful against Kid Buu. The fact that he left tells us that he was at the very least weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Which makes the potara`s simple multiplication improbable.

[Savage68]

Oh, I get what your point is. The only thing implied about how the Potara merges strength is that the person it produces is many more folds further than what a simple "A + B" formula would yield. Kibitoshin can be many folds beyond "Kaioshin + Kibito" while still being effectively below the SSJ3 range. His strength being lower than SSJ3 Goku's isn't any sort of plot screw-up.

After all, the SSJ3 form itself is "many more folds" higher than SSJ2, and that's "many more folds" higher than SSJ1. Merging two people (Kaioshin and Kibito) that are far, far below SSJ2 Goku's strength and increasing it by a few folds doesn't mean that they're gonna be boosted all the way up to the top. Their fusion is stronger than SSJ2, but obviously weaker than SSJ3. That doesn't contradict anything.

[Xyex]

Just because I think a break down of how the numbers using my system could work out would be useful, I made one. Covers Gotenks, Kibitoshin, and Vegetto.

Goten - 4
~SSJ - 200

Trunks - 4.1
~SSJ - 205

Gohan - 12
~SSJ - 600
~SSJ2 - 1,200

Kibito - 12

Shin - 300

Goku - 37
~SSJ3 - 14,800

Vegeta - 37
~SSJ2 - 3,700

Gotenks (4.4x10) - 40
~SSJ3 - 16,000

Kibitoshin ((12+300)x10) - 3,120

Vegetto ((37+37)x10) - 740
~SSJ - 37,000

[Dayspring]

Wait a tick, wasn't it the Strengths that got multiplied, not the Battle Powers?

[Rocketman]

Kibitoshin - 3,120

Vegetto - 740

I have found a flaw in your scheme here, good sir.

[Darkprince410]

Now, this is all just speculative and may be nowhere close to how any actual formula (if there even is any) for the fusions might be, but it still leaves the possibility that even if the formulas are identical, the Potara fusion pushes out ahead.

Well, if you want to get into crunching numbers and making speculative formulas and all that... then I've typically found from experience that there would have to be a much bigger difference between them than just not having to even out their levels before-hand. Because otherwise, especially going by the "official" Super Saiyan multipliers from the SEG... SSj3 Gotenks ends up WAY stronger than Super Vegetto.

Let's say Goten and Trunks are each a... 2, compared to your 10 and 8 for Goku and Vegeta.

(2 + 2) x 10 = 40 <--- Base Gotenks.
40 x 400 = 16,000 <--- SSj3 Gotenks

(10 + x 10 = 180 <--- Base Vegetto.
180 x 50 = 9000 <--- Super Vegetto. (the result was COMPLETELY circumstantial, I swear!)

So yeah, since Vegetto only needed Super Saiyan to completely school Gohan-Boo, you can see the problem. Whether you agree with the SEG's boosts for Super Saiyan or not, once you start crunching numbers the Potara fusion has to be MUCH greater than the Dance method. Probably about twice as much, at least.

I wasn't actually suggesting that the formulas were indentical or anything along those lines. I was just laying out the "fact" that even if the two shared the same formula, that due to not needing to synchronize the two battle powers for the potara earrings would result in them being the stronger fusion.

[caejones]

Didn't Elder Kaioshin say that Goku and Vegeta's grudge helped make Vegetto even stronger?
Kibitto and Kaioshin were in quite the opposite situation, so it's possible that the result was the opposite--that they got the minimum power as the result of the fusion.

As for the dance... I'm not sure about the original, but the FUNi dub throws out a few lines that make it possible to get a very rough estimate of how it works.

We have that:
- Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks were about equal (Ignoring any holding back from Buu for now.)
- And that when Gotenks split inside Buu, Buu lost "over a third of his power".
If we assume that Buu's absorbtions are additive, we get... a bunch of Algebra (sorry, Mike...):

B = Buu, P = Piccolo, and T=Goten/Trunks (whether the lowest, highest, or average of the two, I dunno.)

• (2/3)(2B+P)=B+P+2T
• 4B+2P=3B+3P+6T
• B=P+6T

Assuming that Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks (P>T), the difference between Goten or Trunks and SSJ3 Gotenks is a factor of at least 7.

Of course, that's all extremely speculative, and doesn't take into account the SSJ multipliers, if "T" is base or SSJ Goten/Trunks, and all of that fun stuff. But eh.

[Xyex]

Kibitoshin - 3,120

Vegetto - 740

I have found a flaw in your scheme here, good sir.

~SSJ - 37,000

Which is all that matters.

Base Vegetto has no need to be stronger than Kibitoshin. He's stronger than SSJ Gohan, that's good enough.

[Onikage725]

I apologize if I miss the point. Everyone's various personal fake-math equations are jumbling in my head (not that I have anything against them).

But one thing I've always thought, based on Goten and Trunks needing to transform before fusing at first, is that transformation modifiers may also stack. Not simply the bases being roughly doubled and then applying the usual transformation modifier.

Like... let's say Goten and Trunks are roughly 2 for fusion dance purposes.

You could say that a base Gotenks would be a 4 (addition or multiplication is the same here, and I'm not using a fusion modifier beyond that to keep it simple).

So, SSJ Gotenks could be 4 x 50, or 200.

But what if the fusion doesn't care about normal Saiyan rules and modifiers, and simply applies the best of what it gets. So, when the kids fused at SSJ, they were 100 each (2x50). If you use addition, you still get 200. But if you use multiplication, you now have 10,000.

The same benefit would work in favor for Super Vegetto, even moreso.

Now, and I could be just being silly here, but I don't think SSJ3 works like this for Gotenks. Why? Because SSJ is something both kids could do, and they can fuse in that form or bring out that full potential (with training). But neither of them, unfused, can utilize even SSJ2. So, to me, it seems that Gotenks alone is the one attained SSJ3. I don't have any numbers to reflect this, but I don't think SSJ3 Gotenks is as strong as he would be if both kids could go SSJ3 and then fused.

Also, if nothing else (comparing dance to potara), the earrings win for general stability. The dance has a time limit, and that time limit can drain rapidly if the user is...say...using powers on the level of a SSJ3.

[SSJkid]

Let me try it in a simple way,

I.
old witch = 5(old kaioshin said he gained some of his mystic abilities from this witch)

15th generation Kaiohshin = 150,000,000

old witch x 15th generation kaiohshin = old Kaiohshin

5 x 150,000,000 = 750,000,000



II.
Kibito = 20(aside from flying, teleportation, materializing magic and healing, what else can he do?)

East Kaioshin = 150,000,000

Kibito x East Kaioshin = KibitoShin
20 x 150,000,000 = = 3,000,000,000



III.
Base Vegeta = 150,000,000

Base Goku = 150,000,000

Base Vegeta x Base Goku = Base Vegetto

150,000,000 x 150,000,000 = 22,500,000,000,000,000



IV.
Base Gohan = 150,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan = 150,000,000 x 100 = 15,000,000,000



V.
Base Goku =150,000,000

SSJ3 Goku = 150,000,000 x 400 = 60,000,000,000







Conclusion:

I'm not exactly saying Kaiohshin is equal to Base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. I simply put Kaiohshin to that level because he is close to the PL of Base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. And to show that he won't be surpassing SSJ level as long as he fuses with Kibito.

Old Kaiohshin = 750,000,000

KibitoShin = 3,000,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan = 15,000,000,000

SSJ3 Goku = 60,000,000,000

Base Vegetto = 22,500,000,000,000,000


I don't see any contradictions, the only problem here is Kibito was given too much credit unlike the Old Witch that fused with 15th generation Kaiohshin.
As for the argument about Kibito fighting Gohan in SSJ, I doubt Kaiohshin would allow Kibito to get killed as he was only there to push Gohan to use his power.

[Dayspring]

Wait a tick, wasn't it the Strengths that got multiplied, not the Battle Powers?

I ask this again, because if it is just strength, then it makes sense for "Kibitoshin" to be weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Kaioshin is substancially weaker (physically) than SSJ Gohan. Kibito may be even weaker still. Where their power seems to come from was their ki manipulation, which may not be considered "strength." If they were as weak as Kaio physically, then the strength of their fusion wouldn't be all that much.

[Xyex]

II.
Kibito = 20(aside from flying, teleportation, materializing magic and healing, what else can he do?)

Kibito is stronger than base Gohan. Gohan wasn't sure if he could beat him without transforming and the Daizenshuu say he could give Gohan a good fight.

I'm not exactly saying Kaiohshin is equal to Base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. I simply put Kaiohshin to that level because he is close to the PL of Base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta.

Not really the place for this, but.... Kaioshin was significantly higher than the base Saiya-jins. He was stronger than Piccolo, after all, and Piccolo's well beyond the base Saiya-jins. Not to mention he never commented they were close to his power, and it wasn't until Goku went SSJ that he said he'd been surpassed.

Anyway, your levels would have to looks something like this to be more accurate:

1) Old witch = 5, 15th generation Kaiohshin = 300,000,000
Old witch x 15th gen Kaioshin = Old Kaiohshin
5 x 300,000,000 = 1,500,000,000

2) Kibito = 12,000,000, East Kaioshin = 500,000,000
Kibito x East Kaioshin = Kibitoshin
12,000,000 x 500,000,000 = 6,000,000,000,000,000

3) Base Vegeta = 34,000,000, Base Goku = 34,000,000
Base Vegeta x Base Goku = Base Vegetto
34,000,000 x 34,000,000 = 1,156,000,000,000,000

4) Base Gohan = 12,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan = 12,000,000 x 100 = 1,200,000,000

5) Base Goku = 34,000,000
SSJ3 Goku = 34,000,000 x 400 = 13,600,000,000

And even if we just use your numbers straight up, then for Kibitoshin that puts him equal to base Vegetto. So, as you can see, there's actually plenty of contradictions.

Wait a tick, wasn't it the Strengths that got multiplied, not the Battle Powers?

I ask this again, because if it is just strength, then it makes sense for "Kibitoshin" to be weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Kaioshin is substancially weaker (physically) than SSJ Gohan. Kibito may be even weaker still. Where their power seems to come from was their ki manipulation, which may not be considered "strength." If they were as weak as Kaio physically, then the strength of their fusion wouldn't be all that much.

There really isn't a difference, though. Strength is what Battle Powers/Power Levels are representations of.

[Savage68]

How is Kibito stronger than Base Gohan, when he couldn't even make the Z-Sword budge? Gohan could actually lift it up and swing it around in his base form.

[Xyex]

How is Kibito stronger than Base Gohan, when he couldn't even make the Z-Sword budge? Gohan could actually lift it up and swing it around in his base form.

Don't ask me, I'm just going with what we're given.

[Dayspring]

Wait a tick, wasn't it the Strengths that got multiplied, not the Battle Powers?

I ask this again, because if it is just strength, then it makes sense for "Kibitoshin" to be weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Kaioshin is substancially weaker (physically) than SSJ Gohan. Kibito may be even weaker still. Where their power seems to come from was their ki manipulation, which may not be considered "strength." If they were as weak as Kaio physically, then the strength of their fusion wouldn't be all that much.

There really isn't a difference, though. Strength is what Battle Powers/Power Levels are representations of.

But then why would they specify the following in the same definition:
"SSJ = BP x 50"
"SSJ2 = SSJ Strength x2"
"SSJ3 = SSJ2 Strength x4"

It would make more sense to replace the word "Strength" with "BP" (or vice versa) than to introduce a new term. This method implies that Strength and BP are somehow different, even if only marginally.

Regarding Kibito being stronger than Base Gohan, this is kind of the point I'm making. It's possible Strength could imply certain aspects of one's overall ability. For example, if one's ki were one's energy reserves, they could then focus it into lifting heavy objects, making energy attacks, etc. So if ki = Strength and Dende has a Strength of 1,000,000 and you fused him with Bulma (Strength of 5), the fusion would get you a Strength of 5,000,000. Both being non-combattants, that makes for one super-strong weakling when it comes to fighting. But in regards to non-combat ki-related activities (like making DBs, healing people, etc), the fusion would be a powerhouse.

This is what I mean when I say Kaioshin is spiritually stronger than SSJ2 Gohan but physically weaker than SSJ Gohan. We've seen many times that using one's kiai to push someone back or stop a ki attack is a sign of freakishly large power. Kaioshin can use his kiai to restrain SSJ2 Gohan, but doesn't have enough physical strength to remove the Z-sword, which shows us that he's also weaker than SSJ Gohan, somehow. The probable explanation is plothole, but an in-story answer could be that Kaioshin can't manipulate his overall power perfectly in regards to his physical side.

So if Strength is all of one's power and BP is only the power you can use strictly for battle, then for Vegetto, they may as well be synonymous, but for Kibitoshin it means you took Kaioshin and greatly increased his non-combattant abilities, since he's not a good fighter, just strong.

Another way to look at it could be "Strength = power that is purely physical, Ki = power that is purely spiritual, BP = all power (Strength + Ki)." If that were the case, multiplying Kibito and Kaioshin's strength would be useless, but not for someone like Vegetto who is comprised of two SSJ2s (meaning, two people who maxed out their strengths, surpassed it anyways and then maxed that new level out, then surpassed it again).Example:
-Goku has a strength of 1,000 and the ability to add up to 1,000 points of Ki to his punches. Thus, when he throws a punch, his BP will read 2,000. Vegeta is the same.
-Kaioshin has a strength of 10 and the ability to add up to 1,500 points of Ki to his punches. Thus, when he throws a punch, his BP will read 1,510. Kibito is the same.
-Vegetto is a multiplication of Goku and Vegeta's strength. Thus, when he throws a punch, his BP will read 1,001,000 (1,000,000 strength + 1,000 ki).
-Kibitoshin is a multiplication of Kaioshin and Kibito's strength. Thus, when he throws a punch, his BP will read 1,600 (100 strength + 1,500 ki).

See what I mean?

EDIT: Why the fuck am I trying so hard to find a way for Potara to be Strength x Strength and work? I disagree with its source definition in that SSJ = BP x 50. So for devil's advocate purposes, keep what I said in mind, but I'm done here.

[Xyex]

But then why would they specify the following in the same definition:
"SSJ = BP x 50"
"SSJ2 = SSJ Strength x2"
"SSJ3 = SSJ2 Strength x4"

*shrug* I dunno. But no such distinction is ever made in the actual series. And what's more muscle bound strength is quite limited. IIRC Goku hit his maximum strength level as a kid, as stated by Roshi, and that the only way to surpass normal human strength was with Ki. Which then means that, muscularly speaking, Buu era Goku would only be stronger than kid Goku because of proportionality due to being older. The difference would only be that of an adult versus a kid. So even if you did make him x2 and x4 stronger in terms of 'physical strength' at SSJ2 and SSJ3 the end result would be so negligible as to be laughable.

Example of "Physical Strength" differences:

Average Human - 10
~ Just picked an arbitrary number for this.

Mr. Satan - 30
~ He's got no ki control but wallops everyone else that comes along. The pinnacle of natural human power.

Kid Goku - 15
~ He's already at the limit of natural human potential, and shown stronger than the average human who only has muscles to work with.

Adult Goku - 30
~ Now at the full limit of natural human potential, and that of an adult body.

SSJ Goku - 30
~ If BP and "Strength" are different then there is no strength increase here since the given increase is in BP.

SSJ2 Goku - 60
~ Double SSJ. And of course, his ki remains unchanged, since BP isn't increased, just strength.

SSJ3 Goku - 240
~ x4 of the previous level.

240 for strength, the equivalent of 8 Satans. Not exactly going to do much of anything. Especially since his ki at SSJ3 is the same as it was at SSJ1 since Strength and BP aren't the same thing, and only Strength was said to increase.

Vegetto - 900
~ Goku's 30 x Vegeta's 30 comes out to 900. Nothing is said about BPs so Vegetto's only got as much ki as SSJ1 Goku.... Yeah. Not gonna work.

Oh, and Gokcule? He's at 900 too. Just as much physical strength as Vegetto. Including SSJ Vegetto since, as said before, BP and Strength aren't the same here, only BP goes up with SSJ.

[Rocketman]

Ok, I got it. The Potara fusion isn't A times B, Vegetto is, because he's made of rivals. Kibitokai is made of one guy who's completely subservient to the other, therefore he doesn't get much of anything out of it