DBZ: English VS Japanese

[jjgp1112]

You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

They probably get upset because it's a gross hyperbole, and I almost always see it used to deride the English version. It has a different tone, but it's nowhere near a completely separate experience. When I watch the Japanese version of material I've only seen in the dub, I'm not amazed by this brand new show I'm watching. I'm pleasantly surprised by the slightly better scripted and scored version of a show I've already seen.

Yeah, I agree. It's frustrating because every argument against the dub that I see here seems to rely on hyperbole. If you compared the changes in other dubs to the changes Funi made to Z, Z would look like a perfect dub. Yet people put it on the same level as those dubs anyway. It's frustrating seeing accusations that you know aren't true or aren't as severe as they are presented.

Yes, you *should* stay out of this, because you constantly take those things personally. "It's almost like they're being told..." is not the same thing as "This is what they said."

But with every contextual clue, that almost is what they're being told. Maybe I haven't seen enough of this guy's posts, but I sense minimal undue butthurt here.

I think that's one of the reasons why some of this stuff gets out of hand. Some people leave out certain parts of the argument while leaving in others to justify their position. Usually, I don't say anything until I've read a full post.

And I generally roll my eyes when people complain about people taking things personally, because I find it incredibly hypocritical. That's why I avoid pointing that out.

[SSJSteve]

I prefer watching with the FUNi dub. I did try and get into the Japanese version but I just went back to English, I did enjoy the Japanese version but I couldn't be bothered to read subtitles. The FUNi dub can be annoying, just that I'd rather watch in English.

[linkdude20002001]

I think that's one of the reasons why some of this stuff gets out of hand. Some people leave out certain parts of the argument while leaving in others to justify their position. Usually, I don't say anything until I've read a full post.

And I generally roll my eyes when people complain about people taking things personally, because I find it incredibly hypocritical. That's why I avoid pointing that out.

How is it hypocritical? I don't get upset when people complain about the problems of the Japanese version, and I expect the same from others. I don't know how I can make a perfect comparison since my preferred version is Toriyama's version, but if I did prefer FUNi's version, then I'd accept that it's not what Toriyama intended and enjoy it all the same.

[penguintruth]

I'd be interested in knowing how dumbing down the dialogue, giving characters exaggerated cartoonish voices and exchanging beautifully orchestrated music with soulless techno-rock mixes "improves" the show. Really.

[bjnelson19705]

When growing up, I liked the dub.

Now, I love the original Japanese sub.

Watch Dragon Ball with Japanese subs and you'll see what I mean.

[VenomSymbiote]

My god, that is a gigantic post. I'm going to have to read and answer it section by section so I don't mess up my answers.

But first, I'll comment on this:

Why does every dub fan on Daizex feel the need to carry on as if they were the only dub fan on Daizex, some brave minority of one, when there's actually a pretty decent number of them here?

Anyway, all the points you brought up have been brought up many times already by other dub fans on Daizex, and discussed in depth. So you're only "walking into the lion's den" in the sense that you're rehashing an old debate that most people here been through already and are probably a little tired of.

They probably feel that way because the best Dragon Ball forum on the 'net happens to have the one of the most extreme ratios of dub fans to sub fans ever. It's very hard to not feel out of place when quite a lot of people you can talk to here aren't fans of the version you love. I don't think there's any huge mystery to that.

Heck, my signaure flat out states that I'm the quintessential dub fan here on Daizenshuu EX, just so people realize that dub fans do exist on this board.

As for you other point Herms, most of our DBZ discussions are old debates springing up from time to time. I don't think that's a huge problem, especially seeing as how many things in life are like that. If you're really that jaded about that, simply avoid the discussion. I think that's a good, solid solution.

Alright, now back to the main post here:

I know, I know. This probably is not the best place to post these thoughts but then again, maybe it really is.

I know now that Daizenshuu EX is primarily a site for fans of the original Japanese version of DBZ. I get that.
And so before I go any further, was THAT version the first version you saw? Was it the first version you viewed from start to finish?

I ask because subsequently, the first version we see makes for severely biased opinions, not to mention it heavily influences our standing. I am proof of this as well. What also plays a big factor is that many of you (I’m sure) were anime fans to begin with thus the respect was already deeply rooted in and for the original product.

Right so far?.

See, that's how I feel when it comes to posting here. I'm always like, "Well, this is an interesting topic, and this board is awesome, but I'm really scared I'll get yelled at for posting a somewhat dub-specific topic." Especially when here, I can actually have a decent conversation about Dragonball, so to not post here because I'm a dub fan is a bit strange.

Just to make it clear, I actually saw the dub first, and that's the version I've seen from beginning-to-end (mostly). That makes a huge difference too. I absolutely agree--the first version of things we see can indeed make for severely-biased opinions, as well as heavily influencing where we stand on things.

Moving on:

I’m posting today to talk about the other side of the coin. The side of the coin that is often times misinterpreted and coincidentally the side of the argument in which I stand.

I stand for fans of the DBZ English Dub and I stand for what I feel is the best version of DBZ. I know, I know. I’m walking right into the lion’s den. At least here me out and while at the end you will still surely disagree, I merely ask that you try to understand where we fans are coming from.

For me personally, DBZ is the only, ONLY anime I am interested in. Not to say I dislike cartoons, because that’s not the case and it’s not to say I don’t like anime either, as the two are clearly different. I love animation as a whole and could never help what shows piqued my interest, and I’m sure most of you feel the same.

But let’s keep moving…

Really? DBZ is the only anime you're into? Huh.

I have the utmost respect for the original material. Honestly, I do.
I recognize that it was a Japanese show FIRST, while at the same time, I respect the author and I respect all original intentions. (Which includes the original translation)

Thank god, another dub fan who's aware of this! I have to agree-- as much as I love the dub, yes, it was indeed Japanese, and I also respect that (That's why I've no problem with people who are fans of the original version.)

However, I feel that FUNimation took this product/story and transformed it into something even greater. From the music, to the voices, to every aspect of the series, I strongly feel that FUNimation did everything better.
(With the exception of losing 20% of the screen on the orange brick release)

I want to say I agree with you, but the problem here is that, well, what one considers "better" is largely arbitrary. As a dub fan, If you think that they really made the show better, that's great! But even I can deny that certain things could have been so much better, like the cropping. I love widescreen, but 20%? *facepalms*

Again, I realize this is NOT the original version. I recognize it was not even the original VISION. Some people will forever make the argument that an original “anything” is always the best but in all honestly, this viewpoint seems rather…flawed. Just because McDonald’s is the granddaddy of all fast food restaurants, does it mean that McDonald’s has the best tasting burger among the other fast food chains? No, it doesn’t. (Even though McDonald’s IS the best, lol) Or…just because Pizza Hut came before Papa John’s, does it mean that Pizza Hut’s pizza tastes better? Does it mean that a pizza can never be surpassed? Well, no. It comes down to a matter of OPINION. Agreed?

Oh, I guess you are aware of what I just told you. Hmm...

I realize that we are LUCKY for DBZ to get the American treatment as I think as a whole, they made a great show even greater and a lot of that stems from the FUNi cast and version. This is the point I am getting at.

Do you really think so? If FUNi didn't pick it up, I'm sure some other company would have brought it here...

I will say one thing, something I thought I would never say. Despite being a hardcore fan of Dragonball, I really, really, wish it had been treated the same way anime nowadays are treated, because if it had, all this controversy would never have existed. These conversations do on occasion make me sad. And sure, now there's Z Kai, but that's not gonna stop making me watch DBZ... At the same time, if I could go back into the past and make the show come over here in it's original form, would I? No, because then I wouldn't have my precious dub anymore...

I'm unsure of where I stand on FUNimation and DBZ... It reminds me of a conversation I was having in the chat a couple days ago:

Ever have something you enjoyed greatly but you could never put into words just WHY you enjoyed it so much?

Dub music.

I'm not certain my response got anyone anywhere, but I feel this is the best answer I could give.

For example: In the Japanese version, Goku has always, ALWAYS (imo) sounded like a screechy girl while Sean’s Goku sounds and IS a man. And yes, I am fully aware that a female IS cast in the role for the Japanese version. Hearing Goku with the Japanese voice though pretty much kills that version dead on arrival. At least for me. Granted, I don’t know Japanese, but I DO know the difference between a man’s voice and that of a woman and I am forever hearing a woman anytime I watch DBZ in Japanese. Please tell me some of you agree.

I kind of agree... I do think men should have male voices, and females should have female voices... And yet, females voice males even in our animations, and I've no problem with that.

I think because Sean was my first Goku, I expect to hear him. It's not so much "Oh, Goku's voiced by a woman?!" as it is "Oh! Goku isn't voiced by Sean?!" That's how I feel. I'm fine with her voicing him, I guess.

That said, on a pure audio level, it's hard to deny: Goku sounds... like a woman. Is that bad? In my own view, eh, not really. She's a fine actress, but my Goku is Sean.

So, my first question to those that SUPPORT the Japanese voice acting is this: Do most of you understand Japanese?

I ask that because people are constantly praising the Japanese voice acting and I am always left wondering: How are you even able to comment on such a thing? (Without being fluent in the language?)
Do you know WHEN they are saying a specific word? Do you know how well it is actually being acted out when most of us don’t know Japanese in the first place? How can we be critics if we don’t even understand the voices word for word?

Granted, you can TELL when someone is angry. You can tell when a voice is sad. But how can we critique such a thing without this being our native language? Or at the very least being a language we understand?

I guess if I had things my way, I would ask a thousand people who are fluent in both English AND Japanese which version sounds better. Which version and voices better fit the characters? It would also be helpful is said thousand people are neither Japanese or American to begin with to receive the most non-biased comments possible. That makes sense, right?

I guess this is a valid point, although anime fans do, on some level, understand Japanese if only because, well, they're fans of something from Japan. In time, they acquire a rudimentary knowledge of the language. It's what happens when you watch fansubs. In time, you can hear certain words and understand them without subtitles because you know what they mean.

Plus, you don't need to understand a language to to either praise or critic something. After all, even if a script is accurate, if I can tell the actor is not putting in all their effort... well, that's something that crosses the language barrier.

I do like the thousand people analogy, though. I'm curious as to that possible answer...

Moving on…

My first exposure to DBZ was the classic scene in which Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time. Sucked me right in.
Falconers’ music is pounding in the background and Goku is letting out this scream that completely matched the emotion on the characters face.

But when I turn things around and listen to this same scene in Japanese, I am left wondering: How? How is this better???
Is it because English is MY first language? Well sure, I’m willing to bet that has a LOT to do with it.
On the other hand, I’ve never had a problem reading subtitles while enjoying something in a foreign language.
Am I still biased? Clearly. We all are in one form or another. After all, that’s just the nature of our species. No real sense in denying that.

I have a feeling we like what was original to US…OR we like what we like because we want to be the best fan possible.
The so-called best fan would of course love nothing more than the original product, right? It would be blasphemy to feel differently.

Is that how some of you feel?

I don't think it's an issue of which is better. That's an impossible question to answer. I think it's just that, well, DBZ as put out by FUNimation was increcibely popular. People liked it, regardless of the changes. It was an awesome show, and fans of anything stick to the version that they were introduced to, as I've pointed out earlier.

In my case, yes, I love the dub, not because it's neccassarily better then the original, but because that's what I know and love, and will continue to enjoy.

In every aspect, we the fans of the English Dub are just as great of fans. We are just as loyal.
But do we get the same respect, especially from the so-called die-hard fans? I’m not sure that we do. The English version seems forever frowned upon.

I agree, very much so. Even FUNimation ignores us, to an extent, with the Dragon Box, being the most offensive... offender.

That in itself is surprising to me because I honestly think that DBZ enjoys the success it does DUE to the English Version. Would the show be NEARLY as popular if it had only been released in Japanese and only in Japan? I honestly doubt it. Would DBZ still command such a following had an English version never had been made? Especially when we consider all of the video games and movies that have come as a result?

I don't think this is exactly a DBZ issue. This is an ANIME issue. I don't think anime in general would've been as popular as it was without Dragonball, at least in the U.S., but that's just it. DBZ was a global phenomenon all around the world, without our voices, without out music... Would DBZ still have been as popular as it was had it been put out correctly?

The world will never know.

So, I guess what I want to know is, why can’t the English version be better? Or at least, why can’t it be treated with just as much respect? Is it simply because of the translation issues?

I know, right? I really wish I could Freeza with an "i", but I can't, because it's apparentely really frowned upon. I so wish the dub (of anything) could be treated with the same respect as the original. *sigh* I think it's simply because, well, it was changed. That's really it, I think.

And if the English version is so inferior to the Japanese version, which the majority of you seem to back, then why did the company even bother making an English version?

The logical answer is of course: Money.

But beyond a financial argument, what other reasons are there?

I've no idea... This is another one of those questions no one can really answer. We'll never know why Dragon Ball was brought here, I think.

This site and its users repeatedly stress the importance of a good, solid translation. I respect that. This always seems to be the core of your argument.

But is it possible that you have brainwashed yourself due to your love of anime? Due to respecting where anime originated from?

Is it possible that you blindly count the Japanese version as “King” simply because it came first?

Is it possible you are being a bit too nit-picky, thus clouding your judgment?

When watching the English version, I had no idea that the Japanese translation was a bit different at times. I was clueless to that fact. But it also did nothing to ruin my experience.

But MAYBE by being clueless to these facts, I was able to appreciate this version on a level few of you are able to experience.

Because your love for the Japanese version is so firmly planted, is it possible you have never watched the English version with an open mind?

Is it possible you will NEVER be able to view it as such?

And sure, it’s just as easy for you to reverse that argument on me because I love the English version like you love the Japanese.

So yeah, I understand the argument can work both ways.

Well, as a dub fan, I have to say, all dubs need a good translation. There's no reason not to have one. At the same time, if I like a show a lot, I can forgive if the translation reaches the DBZ level.

I do think a lot of the discussions we have are based on nit-picky things, but at the same time, I don't think anyone just blindy accepts any version of anything. After all, the Japanese have animanga. XD That's something that has caused the Japanese fanbase endless headaches as to their existence.

Your points here make perfect sense, and I've nothing to add to it.

Long story short:

A friend of mine was kind enough to make me a copy of “Yo! Son Goku and his friends return”.
Yeah, it was awesome, and yeah, I watched in all in Japanese. (An English version does not exist, correct?)

No it does not... yet. (I think?)

I bring this up because while I enjoyed this short film immensely, I knew after my first viewing that I would have preferred to have heard it in English. In my head, all I kept hearing were the English voices anyway.

Yeah, so did I, man!

Is this basically what happens when you guys watch DBZ in English? Do you constantly want to hear it in Japanese? Have you been a fan of the Japanese version for so long that the English coming out of a characters mouth just sounds out of place? Or, is it simply because you want the most accurate translation possible?

I think it's a combiantion of both. If I don't like the voices, I don't really care if the translation is good or not, since I'll never watch it in that language. Likewise, if I like the voices, I can forgive a shaky translation.

And now that Kai is out, will you find yourself finally a fan of the English version since the translation is as accurate as it’s ever been? Or, will these characters ALWAYS have to speak in Japanese for you to enjoy it?

In the end, what exactly makes the Japanese version better? Why is it more respected?
Beyond the reason of it being the “original”, are there any other reasons?

Not a question I can answer...

I like the DBZ English version for several.
For starters, I have no problems with the voice acting. Every voice seems to fit. Yes, even King Kai.
A God he might be but he was certainly not a typical one. I mean, humor is one of the biggest traits of the character and yet none of his importance was lost to me. Just saying.

I feel likewise. I never felt King Kai was less important because of his voice. On the contrary, I always liked hearing him.

Another reason why I think the English version is vastly superior is because of the music and I’ll even give a few examples.

Remember the fight between Teen Gohan and Cell, specifically the final kamehameha tug of war?
Listen to Falconer’s version and then listen to the Japanese score.
Is there even a comparison???

Falconers’ music was so intense, so dramatic; you honestly felt it was all coming down to that one moment.
And in essence, what Falconer added was what DBZ was always missing in the first place: More emotion and more HEART.
Now, I’m not saying that the Japanese version has no emotion. That’s insane.
But one cannot undermine what the right music can do for a scene. The right music adds depth, adds MORE emotion where emotion is already running high. It simply makes the finished product BETTER. It draws you in faster than you can yell Kamehameha!

Another good example is when Goku gives up on trying to push the Spirit Bomb (or if you prefer: Genki-dama) into Kid Buu and is ready to give up.
Suddenly, he hears Dende’s voice and hears the wish he made.
Now, listen to the music in that scene. Listen for the change. Listen for when the score changes into Goku’s classic theme.
When that happened, I literally screamed with delight.

The music kicks in, Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan, and there’s Sean’s Goku screaming like there’s no tomorrow.
Something about all of that put together simply FIT. It just felt like THIS is how it was always supposed to be.
It was like all of the pieces of the puzzle were finally put in place.

It was then I wanted to thank Toriyama himself for his brilliant story but at the same time I wanted to rush the FUNimation office to exclaim:
You just took the greatest story in the world and made it a gazillion times better. How is that even possible??? Hats off to you both.

Here's an aspect I can fully agree on. Yes, I do think the dub score did indeed improve the show (even if I already said that Kikuchi's shoud've been kept from the beginning). I love every moment you spoke about!

Everything about the English version just feels like THIS is the version everyone should be watching.
THIS was the final transformation. This was DBZ, the way it was meant to be seen.

Ah, this statement here embodies I how I feel about the dub

To hell with a perfect translation if it means losing some of these vital aspects! (I mean, none of the action changed, right? The story is STILL the same story with minor, MINOR changes, at least in my opinion)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but I do think most of the changes in the dub are pretty minor. Again, lots of dub vs. sub arguements are based on nit-picky things (Although, I will say, replacing music is not a minor change, and is something worth arguing about, I think).

It is the ONLY version, (imo) that does justice to the sheer intensity of the series. It is the ONLY version I will ever again watch, period.

(As I have now seen both}

Fantastic, you've seen both!

I've huge problems with people criticzising anything if they have't given said anything a chance. That's why I don't feel bad about saying I like the dub, because I did watch a large portion of it in Japanese!

So, in closing I say this:

The Japanese version is like the Super Saiyan version while the English version is like taking it to a whole new level.
In my opinion, the English version went SSJ3 on the Japanese version thus far surpassing the original. Just like the Goku himself surpassing previous limits which seems rather fitting in the end..

…And in the end, that’s the only way to really describe it and there will never, EVER be a better version for me.

What else can I say? Regardless of my own feelings (dub fan or not), I'm so glad you have such strong feelings for the show you love.

---

Alright, now I need to get back to studying for my SAT exams. This post was way too long, my answers were way too long, and I don't even know what the point of my post was. Regardless, I was able to vent a good portion of my feelings, which is great.

Now it's time to go back to real life.

[The Time Traveller]

The first version I saw was the English dub, I followed it faithfully, then the opening changed and the acting went to pot, then Cartoon Network stopped showing it after Trunks killed Freeza and put it on a channel you had to buy (CNX) which was a hassle. I missed my Dragon Ball Z... then I got CNX, huzzah, and the Cell games were almost over. It was great hearing Scott McNeil and Brian Drummond again but the dub at this point was piss poor, and hard to watch with all the filler and what not.

Then the manga got a UK release and I bought those monthly and really enjoyed it, it was the same feeling I got from watching the show, I read all of the characters in the voices I remembered from the show.

I only got into the Japanese audio because it's the only other option on the US DVDs, I was used to the naming scheme thanks to the manga, it's the definitive version of the show and I had gotten used to watching things subtitled up to the time when I got my first Dragon Ball DVD.

Oh yeah, and the Funimation voice and script were a huge turn off at this point, watching the first few episodes dubbed when I first got Season One was a major disappointment. It was like having a reunion with your old best friend after a few years who turns out to be a total dick. And having watched the Ocean dub a while ago, I can safely say "JESUS, it's worse than I remembered, I'm outta here!"

I wouldn't say this site caters to a specific taste, it caters towards definitive Dragon Ball. It's like if a Macross centric site catered to Robotech.

There are plenty of people who think Alien Ant Farm's horrible cover of Smooth Criminal is better than the original (I know, you'd have to be crazy), but they don't say it that way, they say it like "Michael Jackson's version of Smooth Criminal is gay!" I'd say it's very similar to how most dub fans react to hearing the original version of Dragon Ball/Z/GT.

[TheGreatness25]

I would like to start off by saying that I am glad that you found a version of the show that brings so much delight to you, and I feel it does not matter what version you're enjoying, but as long as you're enjoying and it makes you happy, then that's good.

Now, I will throw in my opinion, as unbiased as it could be, and it is unbiased because after all these years, after approximately 14 years of being a Dragon Ball fan, after 14 years of loving the show, and after 14 years of bouncing on the fence between which version I like best, I came to the conclusion that I'm very proud of: I am a fan of both versiosn.

I will say that anyone I know, even die-hard Japanese Dragon Ball fans were introduced to the show through FUNimation's version. I myself was introduced through Dragon Ball Z when I saw Raditz come to Roshi's island to tell Goku that he was a Saiyan, and took Gohan from him. This was the old Ocean dub and I caught it roughly in '96 or so. So no ands, ifs, or buts, I was immediately hooked on DBZ. They kept showing reruns of the "Saiyan Conflict" and "Namek" Sagas, and I learned (I was in 4th grade) that there was a Japanese version that went PAST that, the original, the correct version. So I got curious and used the internet, and wow, saw little 15 second clips of the original, and as a kid I simply did not care. It was Dragon Ball Z. It could've been completely different, and I still loved it just as much. Then, they got "new episodes," and despite voice changes (most which I thought were worse, even though I grew to love them more), I was a crazed kid. I got the Japanese games and yeah, at first I did the whole, "Heh Goku sounds like a girl" thing. I saw the ENTIRE Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball dubs, having seen only a limited amount of it in Japanese, sat through parts of the GT dub (I had no interest in it when it was on TV for some reason because I knew I'd be collecting the DVD).

Something about "the other side" always intrigued me. I was always interested in seeing it in Japanese. By that point, I built up a belief that it's so much better with more blood, gore, and a completely different script. When I started collecting the DVDs, I would watch in English with Japanese subtitles and saw, "Hey, they're not COMPLETELY changing the script!"

Now, I've definitely seen all of the English version, and I have by now seen the entire Japanese version, and my unbiased opinion, being conditioned as a dub fan, and having been a dub fan for SO much longer than a Japanese fan, I am going to say that the Japanese version is untouchable by FUNimation.

I have grown to really love the Japanese version. I love the feel of it. I love the music. Now I am a fan of Bruce Faulconner's stuff, and I ABSOLUTELY detest the GT and Ultimate Uncut music. However, the Japanese score is brilliant. It makes the show feel so mystic and epic. The only complaint I have about the Japanese score is that I feel there aren't enough tracks and find myself listening to the same score over and over again sometimes. However, the music seemed epic in the Japanese version. The battle theme is awesome in my opinion. I find myself liking Faulconner's music too though... parts of it. I like the general themes, I like the beats, I absolutely hate how cheap it sounds though. It sounds like he got on a Yamaha kid's keyboard with 26 white keys and banged out that audio. It's nice, but it sounds way too cheap. I enjoy many of the English scores, but I still have yet to find one score that is as epic and gripping as the Japanese battle score.

Next, onto the voices. I like the majority of FUNimation's casting actually. I mean yes, I hate Piccolo's voice (I actually preferred it raspy like when Sabat first took over the role) and hate that Vegeta sounds just like Piccolo for a lot of the scenes. I don't like how King Kai sounds. And all of this is not hard to figure out. I feel that when it's obvious that the voice actor is trying SO hard to make a voice for the character until he/she becomes unbelievable and goofy-sounding, then it's unsuccessful. Case in point: King Kai. In the Japanese version, there are some voices that I dislike too. I am not a huge fan of Piccolo's voice, but for the overall, I like the delivery much more. The Japanese version has a lot of subtlety. That is something that the dub has no concept of. The English version pushes its "OH MY GOD HARDCORE ACTION!!!" down the fans' throats. There is a lot of over-reacting, and never really any of those quiet moments. The Japanese version of the final moments between Goku and Freeza makes it what it should be, quiet, concerning, subtle, very surreal. In the dub, it's loud and still "YEAH FIGHT! HARDCORE!" I don't know, that's just how it comes off as. I grew to really like Goku's Japanese voice too and I see it for what it is. Goku was supposed to be innocent and his kid voice in Japanese is really cute. As he grew up, he retained his innocence and Nozawa does a great job making her voice deeper. He doesn't sound "like a man" by American standards, but I actually see nothing wrong with it.

What really irritates me is the dub changes. FUNimation seemed so dead set on trying to make it "cool." Some characters call each other "bro," and they feel the need to add in such corny lines. The "cat loves food" thing, the "MONDO COOL!" thing, all that. They really try to shove it down your throat that it's got action and is cool! Oh my god this stuff is sooo cool bro! Yeah! Bring it on son, this shizzle is off the hizzle! There's no need for that. The original is more grounded, and feels more natural.

However, I really like the dub. It makes me cringe every time I hear a corny line, or a bad delivery, because I feel as a fan I should defend it. I feel like it's the version of the show that I was exposed to and I have to defend it, through all the good and all the bad, I have to show my loyalty to it. Surely you feel the same way actually. I mean you must admit how corny and poorly-voiced SOME scenes are in the least. Surely you can't think that "mondo cool" and "cat loves food, yeah yeah!" are anything but cringe-worthy. It makes me palm my forehead and go, "God FUNimation, really?" But what can I do? I like that version too.

The bottom line is that I am a unique fan. I think the Japanese version is absolutely undeniably more amazing than the American version. There is zero comparison. But I see it for what it is, I realize that it's a completely different show. It has a different feel to it, it's not the same. And I like both. I don't watch DBZ intently anymore, I'm passed that. I flip it on when I have nothing else to do, and it plays in the background somewhere, so I primarily keep it on the English version. But again, I cannot deny that the Japanese version trumps the American version.

I respect your opinion, and I like that you can say that you think the American version of DBZ is better. But you can't say that "it's the way that it's meant to be seen" because it clearly is not. You said "this is how everyone should see DBZ" and I think no it is not. In fact, it's only how English-speaking countries see DBZ. Every other country received a "proper" treatment of the show from the beginning. As a kid, watching reruns of the "Saiyan Conflict" and "Namek" Sagas, Telemundo was airing Spanish-dubbed DBZ and I loved it. Didn't understand it, but it had original music, and was UNCUT! I saw so much more in the same scenes than the English dub gave me.

Oh yeah, and one more thing to close this off. I am also not an anime fan. I am not a fan at all. The only anime I love is anime that I was exposed to as a kid, such as the Street Fighter MOVIES (Street Fighter II V is horrible, even though I have it on DVD...), Cowboy Bebop, and POSSIBLY Fatal Fury. And like you, I am an animation fan too. I have a soft spot for many animated shows like Baby Blues, Oblongs, etc. So you and I are alike in many ways. However, I grew past this debate and formed the opinon that I can enjoy both versions, I don't have to stress myself over anything involving the show. Either way, I enjoy it, and that makes me happy. I feel like I've reached an ideal stage of pure bliss with the show and every aspect of it makes me happy. Nothing that can be done to it will make me hate it. BUT, I will say that the original Japanese version, in my opinion, and in many others' opinion can not be touched by FUNimation.

[Questrider]

Hey guys,
I am still somewhat new to the site, (newbie status) thus I had no idea people brought this up on a frequent basis.
I have yet to see such a post.

I guess I just wanted to hear the reasons behind why you like a given version of the show while also giving my own take.

I am particularly interested in those who KNOW both Japanese and English fluently as I am most curious as to what they think in terms of who they think are the better voice cast and I also think they would have a more subjective view.

I know both English and Spanish fluently, thus I have often times found things better in Spanish, other times in English.
This relates I think, and am curious as to those with a similar background of enjoying something in multiple languages.

@Venom-
I have nothing left to add. Nothing.
You understood everything I was trying to say and I'd be wasting my time if I even tried to come up with an appropriate response. There's is simply no need. You and I feel almost exactly the same on every issue and your answers were extremely insightful. You went into each major point I was trying to make and I really appreciated what you added.
It's nice to know there are similar fans out there who CAN have a serious discussion about topics such as these.
As far as I know, this is the best site for all things Dragonball so how could I have posted this anywhere else?

To all: I have been nothing short of impressed at the level of intelligence I have seen on these boards.
You guys really, REALLY know your stuff. Man, it's just nice to know that there a shit ton of us that love Dragonball this much. And that goes for ANY level.

I've never seen people write about DBZ this elaborate or passionate before and I'll be the first to say: I feel right at home.
Even to those that disagree with me- I'm just glad your just as big of a fan.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

So, my first question to those that SUPPORT the Japanese voice acting is this:
Do most of you understand Japanese?

I ask that because people are constantly praising the Japanese voice acting and I am always left wondering: How are you even able to comment on such a thing? (Without being fluent in the language?)
Do you know WHEN they are saying a specific word? Do you know how well it is actually being acted out when most of us don’t know Japanese in the first place?
How can we be critics if we don’t even understand the voices word for word?

Granted, you can TELL when someone is angry. You can tell when a voice is sad. But how can we critique such a thing without this being our native language? Or at the very least being a language we understand?

I guess if I had things my way, I would ask a thousand people who are fluent in both English AND Japanese which version sounds better.
Which version and voices better fit the characters? It would also be helpful is said thousand people are neither Japanese or American to begin with to receive the most non-biased comments possible. That makes sense, right?

This part of your argument is really the one I want to comment on the most.

I wanna ask anyone who thinks in this way, did you see Inglourious Basterds? In that film, there was almost an even 3-way split of characters speaking German, French, and English (with a tiny bit of Italian "Bawnjowrnow"). Despite only understanding one of these languages (no prize for whoever guesses which ), I could still interpret all the character's performances with ease.

Now obviously, this film being live action, we are actually see the actors acting visually rather than basing their performances entirely on their voice, but I still think that a truly talented actor can portray their emotions with their voice alone, even if the audience can't understand the actual words being said.

On the music, I see TheGreatness25 noted about how cheap the Faulconer score sounds. I have to agree with this. As a musician, I do actually enjoy some of the music that was written for the US DBZ dub, but man I really wish they were able to use some real instruments. On the other hand, I have a similar complaint of Kikuchi's score, in that it sounds like it was recorded in the early to mid 70s. So while the music as it was composed is great, the execution through performance or recording kind of messes it up. I know of 80s anime that has much more clarity in their scores (Macross, 1982, comes to mind, and that came out 3 years before the first DB series).

In terms of actors, everyone is allowed their opinions. I do think that the acting is poor for the Pre-Kai dubs, but as I don't know how to truly explain myself with actual information and acting insight to back me up, this simply remains subjective, but make no mistake, there are ways t be an objectively bad actor.

I feel that the worst strike against the Pre-Kai Funi DB series is the poor script. I think it would be great if the characters acted the same between languages, but because of how the scripts were done, characters were fundamentally changed. A good example of this would be Vegeta just before he's killed by Freeza.

Oh, and props to VenomSymbiote, I really dig how, as a fan who is quite biased towards the dub, you have really carried yourself and have been able to say "yeah, this could have been better, but I still like it." I'd have to say it's similar to myself and Power Rangers vs. Sentai. I realize that most Zyuranger is the more coherent show, and generally more emotional, and MMPR has terrible acting, poor editing, and a pretty damn incoherent plot at times, but I still like it better. What can I say?

[Questrider]

@Greatness-
And now, because of you, I AM going to watch the Japanese version again.

Thanks for breaking it down like that.

I honestly have nothing left to add.

[Kid Buu]

I too grew up with the dub and still enjoy watching the dub today. However the original version is the version I enjoy more because I liked the voice acting and music better in the original version better.

(Street Fighter II V is horrible, even though I have it on DVD...)

I realize this is a forum to discuss Dragonball and only Dragonball...but I'd like to note that I'm watching II V right now. Episode 18 to be exact.

[FDLink]

I'd be interested in knowing how dumbing down the dialogue, giving characters exaggerated cartoonish voices and exchanging beautifully orchestrated music with soulless techno-rock mixes "improves" the show. Really.

Sang it, brotha! SANG IT!!!

That sums it all up, really. That's why it bewilders me that "FUNi dub VS Japanese original" is even an argument. Japanese DBZ is what the show originally WAS-- nay, IS. You can call the FUNi version DBZ as much as you want, but the fact is that is so meddled-with, cheapened and corrupted that it's really a different beast altogether.

Believe it or not, I was a dubbie too, back in the day. But once I found out that the version of the show I saw on Cartoon Network was actually a hack-job wholly unrepresentative of the original product, it didn't take long for me to shift exclusively to the Japanese version once I got my hands on some of the DVDs. To me, the difference was night and day.

No, I am not a fluent speaker of the language, but I have absolutely no problem reading subtitles (seriously, it takes zero effort) and I enjoy watching what is (overall) a much higher-quality project than what was marketed domestically for years.

That said, I am much more receptive to FUNi's dub of Kai. Although it's somewhat a case of "too little, too late," it's nice to see them finally treating the show with some respect. Though some of the elements retained from the original dub of Z continue to bewilder me (Kaio's voice, Nimbus, Tri-beam, etc).

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

I'd hate to contribute to this thread(I was hoping it would die after Herm's first post) but I find it extremely ironic that you felt the need to post this right after VegettoEX just finished his review of the new English Kai dub. Not to mention, the first news post on the main pages specifically talks about Freeza's new ENGLISH VOICE ACTOR.

I'm sorry, I'm a huge dub fan but really all any of these threads end up doing is make us look like sad, whinny little kids. Grow up, enjoy your dub and stop giving a flying fuck about what anyone else thinks.

[Gaffer Tape]

I do have to start out by saying I'm always left scratching my head when the dub fans act like they're some oppressed minority. I mean, seriously, in this country, you guys are undeniably the majority! If you feel like this community looks down on you for being a dub fan, well, congratulations! You probably found the only place that even begins to edge on that mentality. In my real life, all throughout my adolescence, I was always the outsider in my group of my friends. They all loved the dub, and I hated it, and we were always at odds, but I was always the lone defender of the original version. And to even suggest for a moment that FUNimation caters to sub fans more than dub fans is complete horseshit. Sorry, but that's not even an opinion. It's quantifiable. In fifteen years, what have sub fans gotten that was specifically catered to them? The Dragon Boxes. That's it! In every other release what's the default language? English. What nauseating garbage do I hear on every menu screen? The dub soundtrack. And on newer releases, what version of credits and title cards do I see? FUNimation's. Yes, the Japanese version has been there since 2000, but it's always been second billing. Dub fans have always been catered to and continue to be catered to. So to even SUGGEST that it's the other way around requires a mindset and view of the world I can't even begin to fathom.

But to answer your question, I was introduced through the dub, so I don't have this overwhelming need to defend what I saw first. In terms of all fictional media, I try to find the original. And that's not even saying I always think the original is better. That's irrelevant to me. But, to quote Mike, it's a "state of being." The Japanese version is the show. Anything else is derivative, and I'd rather have that state of being than a derivation. It just so happens that in this case, the dubs have been so terrible that it was quite easy to transition to the Japanese version.

[Cipher]

I think TheGreatness25 just summed up my feelings on the matter more eloquently than I ever could. Every single part of that post applies to me as well, and provides a very fair way of looking at things.

The only thing I want to touch on again is this view:

How is it hypocritical? I don't get upset when people complain about the problems of the Japanese version, and I expect the same from others. I don't know how I can make a perfect comparison since my preferred version is Toriyama's version, but if I did prefer FUNi's version, then I'd accept that it's not what Toriyama intended and enjoy it all the same.

As far as this community goes, from everything I've seen in the past few months, the Japanese and dub fans seem to respond about equally to criticism of their favored version. Most of the time, people have been quite fair, with a few explosions of incredulous self-righteousness on both sides.

But I really detest the mantra of "It's a different show. Don't get upset, but you like a different show." That may be applicable for the "The Japanese version is mad gay!" crowd on Youtube, but here? It's horribly condescending and a total hyperbole. No matter the intent, it's still the closest thing to saying, "You're not a real fan. You aren't sharing in the same things that we enjoy."

I guarantee you that's not true. If they're here, I'm betting even the most die-hard dub fans enjoy the series for the same reason as everyone else. It's fun, it's about kung-fu aliens, and the plots are interesting. They simply happen to prefer it with a slightly (it really is slight, in the grand scheme of things) different script, and techno music. And because the fanbase loves to be bitchy, those differences are brought to the forefront again and again, rather than the vastly more numerous common traits that both dub fans and original fans enjoy. There shouldn't even be an issue of minorities and majorities. We're all basically enjoying the same product, provided we're educated about what exactly the differences between both versions are.

Also, that's why these threads really shouldn't exist in the first place. But as long as it's on the table...

[TheGreatness25]

Well I'm glad to add something good to the Daizex community lol

But I can see how a dubbie can see themselves as being a minority. Yes, in this country they are the majority, but DBZ has been gone for a long time (from TV) and it's not a hot topic anymore. People come to Forums like this and in a lot of them the majority of the fans THERE are "subbies." Especially this being the best Forum for anything Dragon Ball-related, I think it's easy for a dubbie to feel like the minority. I don't know any friends in real life that I can come to and talk DBZ to truth be told. So I come on here, and I imagine many people are like that.

But yeah, I'm glad I just reached a point with the show where I can watch it in any language and feel satisfaction from it. One version I grew up with and I can ACCEPT its flaws and shake my head with the best of them when the corniness sets in, and the other is the epic work of art that I've been obsessing about since I was a kid.

I feel that dubbies who completely shun the Japanese version and defend the English tooth and nail are people who are looking for excuses to express their loyalty to the version that they grew up with. Once you get past that, it's really just an enjoyable cartoon that has a lot of flaws (dub-wise), but hey it is what it is.

[VegettoEX]

While I appreciate the attempt to squash condescending attitudes and play in a nice tree house as friends, Cipher, I think you unfortunately slide right past what the issue is. You even say what it is... but then conclude that it's not even an issue.

jjgp1112, all in all, is a pretty nice guy. I can tell he is. We'd probably get along and shoot the shit pretty nicely. We're both very well educated about the "version" of the show that each other prefers (which seemed to be your main point). We've both given each "version" plenty of chances, and continue to as time goes on.

There's something that happens behind-the-scenes, though. We're not enjoying the same thing when we go back to our respective TVs. When I watch Gohan transform after Cell crushes #16's head, I'm not watching the same thing that he is. Are the literal events that happen the exact same thing? Yep! No doubt about it! Cell crushes the head, Gohan goes bonkers, there's a new transformation, and everyone reacts.

But they're not the same thing, and we really shouldn't twiddle our thumbs, cover our ears, (somehow at the same time), and pretend that they are. His version has added dialogue where there is none in the version I'm watching. Mine has a song that was specifically composed for the scene that his does not have. Those are two raw facts that say nothing about any so-called "subjective" observations/perceptions/analysis... that takes us into a whole new area for comparisons!

This is what I talk about when I expand upon the "not the same show" idea. Sure, the "show" is exactly the same... but the feelings it evokes can be drastically different from one to the other. It is a different experience. It is. It just is. There's no two ways about it. When we both come back to talk about it, he's going to bring an entirely different discussion to the table than I am.

Do certain dub fans get offended when this is pointed out to them? Yes. Know what? That's pretty ridiculous. It really is. We're experiencing two different "shows" at that point, and if you don't choose to accept that, you're just being delusional. If you want to interpret that as being condescending, so be it. I'll still be able to sleep pretty well at night. You can say the same thing right back at me ("Hey Mike, we're watching two different shows. Mine's different!") -- and I can accept that, because it's kinda true.

What makes everything so cozy back up in that tree house right now is the new dub for Kai. Unfortunately, as Willie's e-mail to the podcast so recently made us think, that doesn't expunge the decade's worth of memories some fans have in their heads which butts up against the memories of fans of the original Japanese version. Those probably aren't going away any time soon, as great as Kai makes an effort to do so.

[Herms]

They probably feel that way because the best Dragon Ball forum on the 'net happens to have the one of the most extreme ratios of dub fans to sub fans ever. It's very hard to not feel out of place when quite a lot of people you can talk to here aren't fans of the version you love. I don't think there's any huge mystery to that.

Heck, my signaure flat out states that I'm the quintessential dub fan here on Daizenshuu EX, just so people realize that dub fans do exist on this board.

Frankly I think you have a greatly exaggerated view of how rare Funi dub fans are here. Certainly the ratio of dub fans to Japanese version fans is lower than on other DB boards, where in my experience it's about 10 to 1, but dub fans here are hardly the vastly outnumbered minority you seem to think they are. There are dozens of dub fans here, many among the most active members (Xyex, Conan, Innagadadavida, jjgp1112). That you feel the need to state that you're the "quintessential dub fan here" apparently means you don't notice any of these other people, something I do find quite a mystery.

As for you other point Herms, most of our DBZ discussions are old debates springing up from time to time. I don't think that's a huge problem, especially seeing as how many things in life are like that. If you're really that jaded about that, simply avoid the discussion. I think that's a good, solid solution.

What bugs me isn't so much the repetitiveness of these types of threads, it's that so many people who make them seem to think they're doing something both original and rebellious. Again, it's the fact that many dub fans here seem unable to notice each other. And yes, I generally do just stay out of them, but this time I felt like posting.

[linkdude20002001]

As far as this community goes, from everything I've seen in the past few months, the Japanese and dub fans seem to respond about equally to criticism of their favored version. Most of the time, people have been quite fair, with a few explosions of incredulous self-righteousness on both sides.

But I really detest the mantra of "It's a different show. Don't get upset, but you like a different show." That may be applicable for the "The Japanese version is mad gay!" crowd on Youtube, but here? It's horribly condescending and a total hyperbole. No matter the intent, it's still the closest thing to saying, "You're not a real fan. You aren't sharing in the same things that we enjoy."

I guarantee you that's not true. If they're here, I'm betting even the most die-hard dub fans enjoy the series for the same reason as everyone else. It's fun, it's about kung-fu aliens, and the plots are interesting. They simply happen to prefer it with a slightly (it really is slight, in the grand scheme of things) different script, and techno music. And because the fanbase loves to be bitchy, those differences are brought to the forefront again and again, rather than the vastly more numerous common traits that both dub fans and original fans enjoy. There shouldn't even be an issue of minorities and majorities. We're all basically enjoying the same product, provided we're educated about what exactly the differences between both versions are.

But I wasn't saying it in a condescending way... If I were being condescending, I would've said it a lot more rudely. Thing is, I'm just saying that they're different fans; fans of a different version of Dragon Ball. It isn't condescending to say that a fan isn't a fan of Toriyama's version of Dragon Ball if they themselves say that they don't like it. For example, in Questrider's first post, he said he doesn't like the original, and that FUNimation's version is better. He's a fan of FUNimation's version of Dragon Ball, so how is it condescending to say that he's a fan of FUNimation's version of Dragon Ball?