Fusion Questions

[hleV]

Are you actually saying Goku or whatever character that might be measured with Battle Power is stronger than measured with Kiri?

It's really that simple:

Powerlevels - same amount of power, but in higher numbers.
Super Buu = 100
Goku = 50
Vegeta = 40
Vegetto = Goku * Vegeta = 2000 // that's 20 times stronger than Super Buu

Kiri/Kilis - same amount of power, but in lower numbers.
Super Buu = 10
Goku = 5
Vegeta = 4
Vegetto = Goku * Vegeta = 20 // that's 2 times stronger than Super Buu

So, it matters. I still stay with my opinion that Fusion has its own unique measurement, different from Battle Power/powerlevel and Kiri/Kilis.

[Senzu_Bean]

Nope, it doesn't matter cause we don't have a clue how Kiri relates to Battle Power. It is ridiculous to even put in consideration a fusion would be stronger using Battle Powers than Kiri when both people are exactly that strong whatever the measurement unit is.

You are saying if Raditz measured Vegetto Battle Power he would be stronger than Babidi measuring him with an energy device. That is ridiculous!

[hleV]

Man, seriously, what are you talking about?

[Senzu_Bean]

Man, seriously, what are you talking about?

Proving you how ridiculous it is to say Vegetto's power measured with a scouter is stronger than measured with an energy device.

[hleV]

I never said anything like that. Is my English so poor? The first sentence of my post above is pretty much incorrect, it should have been "multiplied" instead of "measured", but did you read the whole post?

Powerlevel and Kiri are the same thing expressed in different numbers.

Goku - 100 powerlevel.
Goku - 10 Kiri.
(these ain't valid numbers, just an example)

So 100 powerlevel = 10 Kiri. Powerlevel numbers being 10 times higher than Kiri numbers.

But Potara Fusion is said to multiply fusees' power.
If it uses powerlevel, then it produces stronger warrior: 100 * 100 = 10,000 powerlevel.
If it uses Kiri, then it produces weaker warrior. 10 * 10 = 100 Kiri.

10,000 powerlevel != 100 Kiri.

[Senzu_Bean]

:/ Why can't the Dragonball fandom argue without entering in freaking debates while posting over and over again the same thing? I'm out about this subject. The next will probably explain to you how ridiculous that is.

Anyway, regarding Gotenks and Super Saiyan 3 that is something commonly seen in Dragonball sites, even in here over the transformations section. Gotenks while Super Saiyan 3 doesn't decreases the overall duration of the fusion into 5 minutes only. But Gotenks can only maintain the form for 5 minutes. It can't be said he can maintain it better than Goku can.

But Gogeta at Super Saiyan 4 is stated to reduce the overall duration of the fusion into 20 minutes. (or is it 10 minutes?) Make me wonder if DBGT creators also misunderstand that line... whether they did or not it is another GT logic.

[caejones]

Senzu_Bean, noone's saying that people are stronger or weaker depending on the units.
What we're saying is, when one multiplies two measurements, the results will differ wildly depending on the units.

So no, Vegetto's strength doesn't change because of how you measure it.
But Vegetto's strength being Vegeta's multiplied by Goku's would give us different results depending on the units, so it doesn't make sense for the potara to give straight multiplication of powers.


Let's follow LeV's example.

If BP=10*Kiri...

Goku's BP = x.
Vegeta's BP = Y
If potara fusion creates a fighter with power (X*Y), we have a contradiction:

Vegetto = X*Y (BP) = 10*X*Y (Kiri)
But...
Vegetto = (10*x)*(10*y) Kiri = 100*X*Y BP

Or, taking numbers out of the equation entirely...

BP*BP=BP^2
Kiri*Kiri=Kiri^2
Kiri=(BP*C)+D
Kiri^2=BP^2*C^2+2*d*C*BP+D^2

The only way that works is if BP and Kiri are equivalent, and the entire point of the question is to show that nothing says they are.

[Bussani]

:/ Why can't the Dragonball fandom argue without entering in freaking debates while posting over and over again the same thing? I'm out about this subject. The next will probably explain to you how ridiculous that is.

I like how you can be so arrogant even when you continue to miss the point entirely.

No, I'm not saying that Vegetto's power would be different depending on which kind of scouter you pointed at him. Please go back and read what people are saying again with that in mind. Or, you know, don't. I don't care if you don't get it. Just thought you might like to know that you're making yourself look silly.

It's probably pointless, but I'll try one last time to reword it:

Powerlevel and Kiri are the same thing expressed in different numbers.

Goku - 100 powerlevel.
Goku - 10 Kiri.
(these ain't valid numbers, just an example)

So 100 powerlevel = 10 Kiri. Powerlevel numbers being 10 times higher than Kiri numbers.

But Potara Fusion is said to multiply fusees' power.
If it uses powerlevel, then it produces stronger warrior: 100 * 100 = 10,000 powerlevel.

What he's trying to show you here is if you do fusion by multiplying one powerlevel by another, and both of your characters are 100 on that scale, you get a resulting powerlevel of 10,000. Goku (100) x Vegeta (100) = Vegetto (10,000).

However, if you start with that same powerlevels measured in kiri, i.e. 10, and you multiply them together, you get 100 kiri. Goku (10) x Vegeta (10) = Vegetto (100). In powerlevels that's the same as a powerlevel of 1,000. Notice how that doesn't match the powerlevel of 10,000 we got the first time around? We changed Vegetto's outcome by using a different unit of measurement in the equation.

[Xyex]

Yeah, but taking your Celsius and Fahrenheit example:

5 degrees Celsius is 41 degrees Fahrenheit.
5 x 5 = 25
41 x 41 = 1,681

25 Celsius is not the same as 1,681 Fahrenheit.

True, but I was going mainly with the concept that the power scales are equal, with one Rad being 1,500 scouter points, and one farmer being 5 scouter points, all the length of the scale. Celsius wasn't the best choice for that, but it was the only real world comparison I could think of.

You are saying if Raditz measured Vegetto Battle Power he would be stronger than Babidi measuring him with an energy device. That is ridiculous!

No it's not. Look at Goku. Babidi read his power in Kili's at 3,000 as an SSJ. Goku's power has never been as a low as 3,000 scouter points when in SSJ. The number is different, but no one is saying that the power it represents is different.

However, if you start with that same powerlevels measured in kiri, i.e. 10, and you multiply them together, you get 100 kiri. Goku (10) x Vegeta (10) = Vegetto (100). In powerlevels that's the same as a powerlevel of 1,000. Notice how that doesn't match the powerlevel of 10,000 we got the first time around? We changed Vegetto's outcome by using a different unit of measurement in the equation.

Except that the problem is that the SEG doesn't say you multiply their kili readings. It says you multiply their powers. Hell, nothing even says that you'd use scouter points for that. For all we know, Goku's a 10 and Vegeta's a 9, making Vegetto 90, and to hell with the tens of millions of scouter points they have.

[caejones]

This has made me wonder if the same unit argument can be used to break e=mc^2 by going with the speed of light in feet / second.

Unless the discrepency is to be found in the units themselves, I.E, Vegetto's power is measured in Kiri^2.
(Yeah, this sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?)

So if there exists an equation for determining the power of a potara fusion, the units have to work out. The equation can't be Goku*Vegeta=Vegetto.
Actually, if it's multiplicative, there has to be a constant.
So...
Goku*Vegeta/k=Vegetto
So if BP=10*kiri, we get...
Goku*Vegeta/10k=Vegetto (BP)


So if anything, I think I demonstrated why trying to apply math to Dragonball is silly. I'll probably try again soon.

[Senzu_Bean]

The number is different, but no one is saying that the power it represents is different.

I was saying that and yet you say it isn't ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm going to wander a bit - why going Super Saiyan before fusing doesn't make a stronger fusion than transform after fusing? It should going by a mathematical equation and it is even hinted in the story but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be accepted.

[Bussani]

Except that the problem is that the SEG doesn't say you multiply their kili readings. It says you multiply their powers. Hell, nothing even says that you'd use scouter points for that. For all we know, Goku's a 10 and Vegeta's a 9, making Vegetto 90, and to hell with the tens of millions of scouter points they have.

That was my whole point from the start... Even if the SEG line of "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" was meant to be taken literally--which I don't even believe!--it doesn't tell us anything about which units to use. It can't give you any idea of how much stronger Vegetto is than Goku and Vegeta, because you can make him however much stronger you want by justifying which numbers you're going to use.

Anyway, I'm going to wander a bit - why going Super Saiyan before fusing doesn't make a stronger fusion than transform after fusing? It should going by a mathematical equation and it is even hinted in the story but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be accepted.

It seems to work by multiplying the base power, whether you're transformed or not. The transformation boost is then applied afterward for whatever reason.

[goku the krump dancer]

Will the new guide books clarify any of this shit? I'm probably stating the obvious but, uh the Buu saga is probably the most controversal saga excluding anything from GT.

[Senzu_Bean]

^ Really?! Doesn't seem more controversial than the previous arc or the even previous one.

It seems to work by multiplying the base power, whether you're transformed or not. The transformation boost is then applied afterward for whatever reason.

Trunks x Goten = Gotenks x50 = Super Saiyan

SSJ Trunks x SSJ Goten = SSJ Gotenks

Shouldn't the latter be 50x stronger than the foremost? I can't see the other logic working, cause it doesn't make sense.

Even everybody make a big deal in transforming into SSJ before fusing.

[Herms]

Will the new guide books clarify any of this shit?

I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Bussani]

Trunks x Goten = Gotenks x50 = Super Saiyan

Like I said, it always seems to work this way, even if they start as Super Saiyans. Don't know why. Maybe to make Gotenks more consistent.

Even everybody make a big deal in transforming into SSJ before fusing.

Piccolo also didn't think that Gotenks could transform from base to Super Saiyan, though, so maybe they just made a big deal out of it because of that.

[hleV]

why going Super Saiyan before fusing doesn't make a stronger fusion than transform after fusing?

What suggests that it doesn't? Fusion Dance wasn't told to multiply fusees' power, was it? While I agree that it shouldn't work any different from Potara Fusion, but we can never know. I don't see why would fusion multiply fusees' base powers. That's why I came up with the idea of why wouldn't people go SSJ before fusing.

[Xyex]

why going Super Saiyan before fusing doesn't make a stronger fusion than transform after fusing?

What suggests that it doesn't? Fusion Dance wasn't told to multiply fusees' power, was it? While I agree that it shouldn't work any different from Potara Fusion, but we can never know. I don't see why would fusion multiply fusees' base powers. That's why I came up with the idea of why wouldn't people go SSJ before fusing.

We know that fusion produces a warrior stronger than the sum of its parts just by how Goku describes it to Piccolo. He said they were pretty weak on their own but amazing afterward. Even so, the power wouldn't change between fusing in base and SSJ because, unlike with the potara, the powers have to be evened out before you can fuse, and then the powers aren't even put against each other (no A x B stuff like with the Potara). So either way you get the same result. Example:

Dance Fusion = A x 10
SSJ = x50
A) Goten - 10
B) Trunks - 10
Gotenks - 100
SSJ Gotenks - 5,000
A) SSJ Goten - 500
B) SSJ Trunks - 500
SSJ Gotenks - 5,000

The only implication made is that fusing at any specific form makes that form the base level, and makes it impossible to transform down to a lower level.

[hleV]

Xyex, I don't see that as anything more than a theory.

While I don't have my own theory nor I plan on creating one, we don't know if SSJ Gotenks was stronger when he born as SSJ or was equal to SSJ Gotenks who ascended to SSJ after fusing.

[Kendamu]

Man, seriously, what are you talking about?

Proving you how ridiculous it is to say Vegetto's power measured with a scouter is stronger than measured with an energy device.

It is ridiculous. If you take it into another perspective, it doesn't matter whether you measure how really hot it is outside using Fahrenheit or Celsius. It's still really hot outside even if the scales are different.