Pure Hearted Goku

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7977
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:08 pm

Savage68 wrote:
Bardo117 wrote:He had sex, he's not pure anymore...
Dragon Ball characters don't have sex. Your point is moot.
Vegetto would have though and Toriyama knew this and since he didn't want his creation to defy him, by introducing real life sex to the Dragon World, he split him apart, as soon as Vegetto lowered his Omnipotent Barrier.
Goku claiming it was the "bad air" inside of Majin Buu, that caused the defusion is Toriyama's way of handwaving, why Majin Buu's magic now suddenly works on Vegetto, even though it failed to do so before.

@Topic
Goku is pure hearted, perhaps until the Buu arc, where he is the one to propose, that Bulma lets her tits be fondled by Old Kaioshin, so they can save the world, not very purehearted if you ask me..

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:32 pm

Savage68 wrote:
Bardo117 wrote:He had sex, he's not pure anymore...
Dragon Ball characters don't have sex. Your point is moot.
Opinion, not fact. Anyway, it doesn't matter because, as Suupaa Gohan has explained, sex doesn't make you impure.
dbgtFO wrote:Goku is pure hearted, perhaps until the Buu arc, where he is the one to propose, that Bulma lets her tits be fondled by Old Kaioshin, so they can save the world, not very purehearted if you ask me..
Yeah, I think I remember this being touched upon in another thread. Goku is definitely impure by the Boo arc--offering to let an old man sexually violate a woman without her permission. I bet it never happened in the end anyway. Vegeta and Bulma wouldn't let him do it.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by the_abberration » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:42 pm

Savage68 wrote:Goku's capable of riding his Kinto'Un while extremely pissed-off, wanting to put the hurt on whoever it was that killed Krillin. "Pure-heartedness" isn't as black-and-white as some are making it out to be, I'd say...
You're right. At this point I would question Goku's purity here. When Tambourine killed Krillin, Goku not only wants vengence but out of that need for revenge, he overtly plans to murder Tambourine. Good thing Goku didn't find Krillin's head in a box.
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7977
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:44 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Goku is pure hearted, perhaps until the Buu arc, where he is the one to propose, that Bulma lets her tits be fondled by Old Kaioshin, so they can save the world, not very purehearted if you ask me..
Yeah, I think I remember this being touched upon in another thread. Goku is definitely impure by the Boo arc--offering to let an old man sexually violate a woman without her permission. I bet it never happened in the end anyway. Vegeta and Bulma wouldn't let him do it.
That's right and you probably know who created that thread :wink:

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:45 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Goku is pure hearted, perhaps until the Buu arc, where he is the one to propose, that Bulma lets her tits be fondled by Old Kaioshin, so they can save the world, not very purehearted if you ask me..
Yeah, I think I remember this being touched upon in another thread. Goku is definitely impure by the Boo arc--offering to let an old man sexually violate a woman without her permission. I bet it never happened in the end anyway. Vegeta and Bulma wouldn't let him do it.
That's right and you probably know who created that thread :wink:
Oh yeah, that was my thread! :P
the_abberration wrote:
Savage68 wrote:Goku's capable of riding his Kinto'Un while extremely pissed-off, wanting to put the hurt on whoever it was that killed Krillin. "Pure-heartedness" isn't as black-and-white as some are making it out to be, I'd say...
You're right. At this point I would question Goku's purity here. When Tambourine killed Krillin, Goku not only wants vengence but out of that need for revenge, he overtly plans to murder Tambourine. Good thing Goku didn't find Krillin's head in a box.
I guess Dragon Ball just sees it as Goku trying to exact revenge for a bad guy killing his friend. Perhaps the Kinto'un judges you based on your overall purity, rather than just how you are then (your mood, basically), as everyone are capable of anger. But would that make you impure if you could get angry? Eh...I guess it just depends on what you see is pure or not. For example, I don't believe Fat Boo should have evil inside him because he was an innocent, childlike being who didn't know what he was doing was wrong--and can a being truly be evil if it takes one man to say, "I think what you're doing is wrong" to make them stop it?
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
Savage68
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1929
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:16 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Savage68 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:46 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Savage68 wrote: Dragon Ball characters don't have sex. Your point is moot.
Opinion, not fact.
''Obviously not serious to begin with" is more like it.

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:51 pm

Savage68 wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Savage68 wrote: Dragon Ball characters don't have sex. Your point is moot.
Opinion, not fact.
''Obviously not serious to begin with" is more like it.
I've been having too many idiot moments today... :(
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Coola Yagami
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:35 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Coola Yagami » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:31 pm

About the sex, remember it's also the mindset. Chichi most likely tricked Goku or whatever, or he did it to please her since she asked him to and explained that's what married people do or whatever. Goku never did it out of raw lust or whatever. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Chichi promised him a table full of his favorite meals in exchange for that 'weird game that created Gohan'.

User avatar
penguintruth
Banned
Posts: 4861
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by penguintruth » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:59 pm

Does Goku recognize that offering Dai Kaioshin a chance to feel up Bulma is inappropriate? Because it seems to me like he just thought, "Oh, he likes to do the kind of things Old Timer likes to do, I guess this is what old men like doing."
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


Dragon Ball (Z) Kai Reviews!

Can I get a Schemen?

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6134
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:01 pm

Yeah, that's how I always saw it too. He still doesn't seem to see anything wrong or dirty about it. He's just following an example he's been shown for most of his life.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 5/11/26!)
Current Episode: The Worst Twist in History - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Resurrection 'F' Arc Part 4

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Attitudefan » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:28 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yeah, that's how I always saw it too. He still doesn't seem to see anything wrong or dirty about it. He's just following an example he's been shown for most of his life.
hmm, but why would he hide it from Vegeta? I'm sure he knows it's bad, and he knew Vegeta would get pissed. Maybe it's SSJ messing with his brain, I dunno.

Image

About killing animals, he seemed to playful in doing it, even when he got older. He tricked them to kill them ain't that right? He was even selfish to finish of Ma jr, he did not want his friends to help him. He was thinking of the tournament and winning. See the point is, it showed Goku not caring if he lost but obviously he did care and wanted to win, people dying and whatnot.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

User avatar
caejones
I Live Here
Posts: 3125
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:37 am
Contact:

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by caejones » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:01 am

It'd be fun if this board allowed for tables in posts. XD


Let's compare Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, the RRA Leadership and Bulma.

Bulma:
- Seeks the dragonballs for either an ideal boyfriend, or a lifetime supply of strawberries. Keeping in mind that she's rich enough that she could probably have gotten either of these without the help of a magical dragon.
- Gets horny at the the mere thought of a hot guy. Oolong, Jackie Chun, Yamcha, 23rd tournament Goku, Vegeta, Zarbon... didn't she think Blue was hot?
- She seemed pretty willing to run off and leave Goku in the Pirate Cave. (But she didn't do this on Namek. Maybe she got nicer by then? :P )

Kuririn:
- Didn't he seek martial arts training to pick up chicks?
- Was willing to cheat and use underhanded tactics to win competitions throughout his not-adult-hood.
- While I think offering Roshi porn was playing to Roshi's nature, keeping some of it for himself certainly wasn't. :P

RRA:
- Used excessive force on innocent people for the purpose of obtaining the Dragonballs, which most people were expecting would be used to attain world domination. Red did all of this, but his goals were to be taller. (Psst: Giant Red as a what-if boss in a game?)
- I'm sure the leaders didn't care about the soldiers that wanted to rape Bulma. Seems like the sort of thing that would have been common and just ignored.
- Hired mercinaries and assassins.
- Condescending toward everyone. Cold-blooded self-serving killers, basically. Children? Wildlife? If they're standing between us and the dragonballs, shoot 'em!


Vegeta:
- Well, he did destroy planets and slaughter billions of lifeforms. Most of them couldn't give him a fight, I'm sure.
- Filler: He had no reason to destroy Arlia.
- He killed his own people when they lost. (Though, I will add that in World War II, the Japanese often killed their own people to prevent the enemy from having that chance.)
- He sought the dragonballs to gain immortality... though his reasoning was to defeat Freeza, who is hard to argue as being anything but more evil than Vegeta.
- Did I mention needless slaughter? Vegeta was strong enough to get what he wanted without killing Namekians. Granted, he had valid strategic reasons to kill Freeza's minions. But still...!
- His banging Bulma isn't elaborated on enough to pass judgment, but it seems rather spur of the moment to me.

Goku:
- After the DBs usually for self-betterment. Never has a use for them in mind, just wants the one that Grandpa Gohan found fairly and left as a keepsake.
- He only ever killed people that were trying to kill other people, and animals that he needed for food.
- Goku's sexlife is left ambiguous, but given his general lack of experience with the subject and his relationship with ChiChi, and the fact that there are only two kids, spaced about nine or ten years apart... it's rather safe to say he was less frivolous with it than everyone above.
- He did quite a few selfish things for the sake of getting to fight. These sorts of things only reached the level that I'd question the purity of in the later series, though. If anything, this shows that Goku has negative character development over the course of the series. :P


So, what'd I miss?
Dr Gero, in Budokai 2 wrote:Go, my Saiba Rangers!
Akira Toriyama, in Son Goku Densetsu wrote:You really can’t go by rumors (laughs).

Coola Yagami
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:35 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Coola Yagami » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:36 pm

well the fate of all existence was at stake... I figured being with Roshi gave the idea that all old men wanted to fell up women for whatever reason, so he decided to bribe Old Kaioshin with Videl or Bulma and hope for the best.

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Attitudefan » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:58 pm

Bulma did like Blue until she found out he was gay.

It's quite interesting to see the deterioration of Goku's character over the course of growing old. I guess it's Roshi's fault for that one.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

Ussj Future Trunks
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Ussj Future Trunks » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:27 pm

He's still callous when it comes to his family in Cell and Buu saga. And sometimes leaving people alive is worse than killing them. Like he just broke Burter's back and left him there to suffer. The poor alien. At least Vegeta did a mercy kill.

And how he sends little kids to fight the worst demons the universe has ever seen, and how he didn't care when a Kamehameha from Buu killed millions.
Simian upstart...none surpass me. No one even comes close! BURN THIS INTO YOUR MIND! I am emperor of the universe. The likes of you are only fit to grovel at my feet. Or better still...to be crushed...LIKE AN INSECT AT THE WHIM OF YOUR MASTER!

- Freeza, DBZ Kai.

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:56 pm

penguintruth wrote:Does Goku recognize that offering Dai Kaioshin a chance to feel up Bulma is inappropriate? Because it seems to me like he just thought, "Oh, he likes to do the kind of things Old Timer likes to do, I guess this is what old men like doing."
Gohan told him it was sexual harrassment, and Goku knows by now why the old timer likes feeling up women. He's had sex at least twice, and isn't the naive child who doesn't know the difference between man and woman anymore. He recognizes that Chi-Chi's flat-chested too. He was afraid of Vegeta finding out too. He definitely knew what he was doing when he offered Bulma up for sexual abuse, and that's as clear as day to me.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Attitudefan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:10 pm

Goku is a bad man! Also Piccolo Jr killed everybody on the island and Goku still did not finish him off. He doesn't care!!!
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

Codarik
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1030
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:20 am
Location: Snake Way

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Codarik » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:32 pm

This is one of those examples why I think English Goku is more pure than Japanese Goku. FUNimation changed it to a kiss. Bulma could just kiss Old Kai on the cheek, not lips. That is something I can see Bulma agreeing on, as a thank you present sort of thing. I highly doubt she would of let him feel her boobs.

Coola Yagami
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:35 am

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Coola Yagami » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:40 pm

I doubt he'd settle for just a kiss on the cheek though... he wants BEWBS.

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Pure Hearted Goku

Post by Attitudefan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:46 pm

Codarik wrote:This is one of those examples why I think English Goku is more pure than Japanese Goku. FUNimation changed it to a kiss. Bulma could just kiss Old Kai on the cheek, not lips. That is something I can see Bulma agreeing on, as a thank you present sort of thing. I highly doubt she would of let him feel her boobs.
It is a surprise to go from English script to Japanese script. It is pretty noticeable that Goku isn't as pure hearted as we thought, he can be quite selfish. Maybe the roles should have been switched with Vegeta doing the bet.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

Post Reply