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[dbgtFO]

Punching is very different from using a finger, not even that, Kami just flick Goku away.

Still, how did you come up with that Kami has be at least 670?

[Senzu_Bean]

Is that a rule?

"First rule is, there are no rules." That definitely applies to Dragonball and much more if you're talking about battle powers.

[dbgtFO]

Is that a rule?

"First rule is, there are no rules." That definitely applies to Dragonball and much more if you're talking about battle powers.

Exactly! and that's why this..

Certainly I choose the first one! Why?
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9589 ... gekami.png
Kami certainly is NOT below 670, if Goku had 260. The picture says everything.

..doesn't make any sense, unless there are some official rules concerning Battle Powers.

[Senzu_Bean]

I was actually referring to your post but I guess it is applied in there too.

Because according to that chart Tao Pai Pai at 210 got taken down in one punch, by Tenshinhan(who can't have been above 250) resulting in a difference of 1,19, if Tenshinhan's power didn't change in those 5 years.

[dbgtFO]

I was actually referring to your post but I guess it is applied in there too.

You know, that's exactly, why I feel Battle Powers pre Saiyan Arc is useless, because at that time, the characters hadn't shifted focus from purely physical strength to purely ki strength/size/control whatever.
After King Piccolo's defeat, Goku, Mr. Popo, Piccolo and Kami are the only ones, who now uses more of their ki strength/control in battle, than physical strength, while people like Krillin and Tenshinhan only uses ki to float/fly and shoot ki blasts with.

I could logically say, that Kuririn pre Roshi training had a BP of 6, but is physically a LOT stronger, than the Farmer with Shotgun, because neither of them has any control over it what-so-ever.

Goku being at 10 is logical, since he is a Saiyan and has more potential for power, than earthlings. But that doesn't equate to him only being 2 times stronger than the farmer, because the story implies the farmer is nothing special and can't do half the stuff Goku did at age 12.

So all in all having BPs for a time period, where ki control/size wasn't the important thing, but rather raw physical strength, is simply not the best thing and I would wish, they at least tried to clarify, that there is a difference in physical strength and ki.

[Senzu_Bean]

You know, that's exactly, why I feel Battle Powers pre Saiyan Arc is useless, because at that time, the characters hadn't shifted focus from purely physical strength to purely ki strength/size/control whatever.

They surely are possible since there are battle powers from that time.

[dbgtFO]

You know, that's exactly, why I feel Battle Powers pre Saiyan Arc is useless, because at that time, the characters hadn't shifted focus from purely physical strength to purely ki strength/size/control whatever.

They surely are possible since there are battle powers from that time.

Ey, I'm not saying they aren't possible, but for the most part of Dragonball the characters rely on physical strength rather, than ki size/control. It's not until King Piccolo shows up we actually see a character "powering up" with the use of ki and thus using it to make himself even stronger/faster, than before.
EDIT: I should probably mention Roshi's Max Form as well, but he never used, that form in battle, only, when firing Kamehamehas unlike Piccolo..

[Fox666]

Punching is very different from using a finger, not even that, Kami just flick Goku away.

Still, how did you come up with that Kami has be at least 670?

No, there isn't any rule. Why just don't left Kami with 220 anyway?

Well, it's just my opinion that Kami cannot be weaker than Chaos.

[dbgtFO]

Punching is very different from using a finger, not even that, Kami just flick Goku away.

Still, how did you come up with that Kami has be at least 670?

Well, it's just my opinion that Kami cannot be weaker than Chaos.

Chaozu is at 610.
610 < 670...

[Fox666]

Sorry, that was a mistake of me

[dbgtFO]

Sorry, that was a mistake of me

No problem, so will you still accept Mr. Popo, as 1030?
Or will you accept it, as his "post training with eartlings" BP?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Of course this was not a battle beetween 1.200 and 400 otherwise a single punch of Raditz would make Goku and Piccolo in pieces.
As stated by Nappa and Vegeta on earth after witnessing the battle power of the earthlings (i.e. Piccolo with 1,220) Raditz was an idiot to trust the scouter.
416 and 408 is nowhere Goku and Piccolo battle power. They certainly should have somewhere around 900 if Raditz had 1,500.
That would also mean that Goku's Kamehameha ("924, and it's growing") don't increase the battle power for a large difference like Makankosappo, at the best it unleashes the full potential

^Finally someone with some sense
No seriously I thought, I was the only one who thought this.

It doesn't make any sense to me. Why didn't Raditz comment on a change in battle power until Goku started charging his Kamehameha? Perhaps their powers fluctuated a bit with each punch, like maybe Goku's power would rise to 450 while attacking, but that wouldn't be significant enough to mention.

I think the 910 power during the 23rd Tenkaichi-Budokai was certainly Goku's "Super Kamehameha."

[dbgtFO]

It doesn't make any sense to me. Why didn't Raditz comment on a change in battle power until Goku started charging his Kamehameha? Perhaps their powers fluctuated a bit with each punch, like maybe Goku's power would rise to 450 while attacking, but that wouldn't be significant enough to mention.

I think the 910 power during the 23rd Tenkaichi-Budokai was certainly Goku's "Super Kamehameha."

The same reason, why neither Jeice or Ginyu's scouter picked up Goku's 90.000 power, when he was fighting Ginyu, even though their scouters are the latest models, as opposed to the one Raditz wore...

The 910 level was his full power.
We have people who constantly claim, that ki blasts are some sort of BP multiplier, when in reality, it's just an attack, that uses your ki in a more efficient way, meaning Goku's Kamehameha and Piccolo's Makankossapo was their full power(or close to it), which they have as ki reserves or whatever and at that time only uses it to unleash a heavy finisher.

[Fox666]

Nappa scouter also failed to pick Tenshinhan power against the Saibaiman, Nappa just couldn't tell why the Saibaiman was defeated by someone with a battle power below it.

[Gaffer Tape]

No it didn't. He had removed his scouter before Tenshinhan had ever shown up. Nappa just assumed his Saibaimen were leagues above the earthlings.

[dbgtFO]

No it didn't. He had removed his scouter before Tenshinhan had ever shown up. Nappa just assumed his Saibaimen were leagues above the earthlings.

Yeah, I was about to say that, a valid example is when Gohan kicks Nappa in the face...
Vegeta's scouter didn't pick anything up...

[p123]

Honestly those guides cause more problems than solving them. Because they spout out illogical information, which people tout as " real " and then people try to find ways to explain why they are real, and why even though illogical, are the truth.

Complete waste of time man, you are better off just reading the manga, and using their statements ( there are plenty! ) and using your own god given intellect. The guides in my experiences are generally a waste at least power level wise.

[Fox666]

No it didn't. He had removed his scouter before Tenshinhan had ever shown up. Nappa just assumed his Saibaimen were leagues above the earthlings.

Yeah, Sorry, I forget that detail

[dbgtFO]

You better be careful with such statements p123 I wouldn't want, that certain members derail this thread, which would lead to it eventually being locked, which I don't want it too, as I got a lot of stuff, I want to say later on, when OP delves deeper into some of the other "Fight Powers."

[Herms]

Honestly those guides cause more problems than solving them. Because they spout out illogical information, which people tout as " real " and then people try to find ways to explain why they are real, and why even though illogical, are the truth.

You could pretty much say that about the manga too. Fans (of a certain persuasion) argue constantly about battle powers and whatnot because the series never even remotely attempts to treat them as a coherent or logical system. They're just window dressing. Their only real purpose in the series is as a weakness for Freeza and his goons. They obsess over these numbers, thinking that they're absolute, and this simplistic thinking causes them to get killed or at least severely inconvenienced. Meanwhile all the good guys can just sense ki naturally, which is consistently shown as being vastly better than using a scouter, and is completely divorced from reducing people's strength to a single number. The manga is pretty clear on this: battle powers don't matter.

Complete waste of time man, you are better off just reading the manga, and using their statements ( there are plenty! ) and using your own god given intellect. The guides in my experiences are generally a waste at least power level wise.

Well, out of the couple thousand pages that comprise the daizenshuu and other guidebooks, a total of maybe 6 pages are devoted to battle powers (3 of which are basically just reprints of the other 3). There's more attention devoted to providing exact addresses for characters (equally meaningless numbers that also just serve as window dressing), or things like their ages, heights, and weights. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the evidence pretty strongly shows that nobody involved in producing the manga, anime, or guidebooks ever considered battle powers to be that terribly important. So yeah, they're more or less a waste as far as battle powers go, because that kind of stuff isn't really their concern. They’re more devoted to summarizing the story, giving episode guides that detail original air dates and key staff members, reprinting rare Toriyama illustrations and anime character models, providing interviews with Toriyama and other important people, providing lots and lots of manga pictures and anime screen caps, given bios of DB characters from the most important to the most obscure, keeping track of the hordes and hordes of DB merchandize that’s come out over the years, etc, etc. Their battle power stuff is just something they tossed in to fill a few extra pages here and there.