Ages in GT

[TonyTheTiger]

I got into the whole Pan/Bra ages thing in another thread a while back.

All I'm going to say here is that I'm convinced somebody screwed up. Either GT was supposed to be 5 years after Z and nobody told most of the crew at Toei or GT was supposed to be 10 years after Z and nobody told the crew who wrote the perfect files.

I genuinely cannot rationalize GT and "5 years" in my head. At least not in the sense that it was deliberate from the show's conception. It just fundamentally does not make sense to me. Like the Goku's ship projecting an image of a moon in the sky filler, that's not something I can rationalize. I just see it as a mistake.

So I firmly believe there was miscommunication going on somewhere along the line.

[Herms]

I just don't see the problem. There's nothing at all strange about GT Pan and Bra being those ages when you look at how age is usually depicted in manga and anime. For instance, the main characters of Digimon Tamers (which like GT also features character designs by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru) are all supposed to be 10 years old, and they look about the same age as GT Pan. Or look at Yu Yu Hakusho: Yusuke, Keiko, and Kuwabara are all 14 at the start of the series. If GT were ten years after Z, then Pan would be 14, same as them, but she doesn't look anywhere near as old as them. It all checks out.

(Interestingly, the English dub of Digimon Tamers purposefully changed the characters' ages from 10 to 13, so it seems like there many be some widespread difference between how people in the US and Japan expect kids of certain ages to be depicted in cartoons. Or something.)

[TonyTheTiger]

Even considering other anime, I just think it's inconsistent with how Dragon Ball portrays ages. Bra looks and acts a lot more like 16 year old Bulma than 7/8 year old Goten/Trunks.

I don't think "that's anime for ya" is enough for me to suspend my disbelief. It just feels...off. If this were another series (Tenchi, for instance, with Sasami) I might think differently. It just doesn't "click" for me with GT. Like I doubt, for instance, if the Perfect Files were silent about the time period anybody would even consider the possibility that Bra was 8 years old. She exhibits the most stereotypical teenage girl behavior. Flirting, shopping, getting snippy with her dad, etc.

It's for all the reasons right there in the show itself that it just makes me o_O at the Perfect Files and the idea that "5 years" was the plan all along and by all parties. So much so that I'm surprised more people don't agree with me that there had to have been a screw up somewhere along the line. It's Dragon Ball. Mistakes are not unheard of.

I can't really defend it much more than that. The combination of knowing Dragon Ball and knowing Toei, it's just gut instinct.

Like Cell getting his entire torso blown off by Goku and a handful of episodes later saying "so long as the nucleus in my head stays intact I can regenerate." You just slap your forehead and move on.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There are more examples than just GT Bra. Goku's 12 at the 21st TB, but still looks like a little kid and has a little kid's penis. Goku's 15 at the 22nd TB and still looks like a little kid. Kuririn and Chaozu are still shrimps when they become adults. 9-year-old Oolong was a horny little bastard who wanted to feel up Bulma while she was sleeping (I know, he's a pig, doesn't count, but maybe worth mentioning). Chi-Chi's 12 at the beginning of the series, but looks like a prepubescent girl, while still sporting a rack.

I agree with Herms. I don't see the problem either. I think you can just say "that's anime for ya" and move on.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think you guys are all crazy. But that's just me. I'm firmly of the mindset that if this "5 years" thing never came up not one person here would have ever pegged Bra for 8 years old. Not a one. Can anybody, with complete objective honesty, say otherwise? I highly doubt it.

Something got botched somewhere along the line. It's GT. I'm pretty sure the list of things they didn't screw up is shorter. Yet apparently this is obviously not one of those many issues? I'm calling serious shenanigans on that one. Bra looks and acts like a textbook stereotypical teenager you see in countless media from around the globe, Japan included, with not even the slightest hint within the show itself she was intended to be younger, let alone 8. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

It's possible that Toei never had any set time frame in mind, with specific ages. They might have just settled on "sometime after Z" and ran with it, making all the characters vaguely older. So maybe they didn't decide Bra and Pan were 8 and 9 or 13 and 14 but rather just "older" and vaguely pre-teenish.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Would you peg Goku for 12 at the start of the series, if you hadn't been told via dialogue that he was that old?

[TonyTheTiger]

Probably not. But Goku is clearly a special case given that he's intentionally made far more naive than the average 12 year old. In fact, that was kind of his shtick for a while.

But, to be honest, I think what I'm basing this off of is past examples. If Chi-Chi is 12 and acts like she does then subsequently if Bra looks and acts like she does I have a hard time swallowing that she's significantly younger than Chi-Chi was at the time. Like I said before, if you took GT era Bra and Buu era Trunks/Goten I think the comparison lends credence to Bra having been intended to be at least a little older than the boys rather than the exact same age.

Like I said, this is gut instinct I'm going by. Walking in blind, watching the series from Dragon Ball episode 1 to GT episode 64, I don't think anybody would peg Bra for 8. It "feels" like an anomaly if that were the case.

But you make an interesting observation. Goku was stated in the show to be 12. They outright let you know "He's naive for his age and we're going to tell you his age to let you know that." With Bra that would mean that it's oddly passive. "Here's this girl who looks like a teen, acts like a teen, and is treated like a teen by other characters but guess what? She's 8! And you know how we're going to let you know? By tucking a time frame away deep in supplementary material not even released until the show was nearly finished!"

I just think that if they were always intending to go for the "she's a young child but skews VERY mature for her age" we'd have been told so by Toei right there in the show because that's not something an audience would be expected to automatically understand. If they did indeed do that? Then it's just bad writing. Which I guess would be par for the course for GT.

Dammit, I really intended to keep myself from getting into this again.

[Bussani]

Here's this girl who looks like a teen

I'm still not sure I agree with this. Ignoring her choice in clothes, she's barely taller than Pan, who's about the same as Gohan was when he was about 9. It's true that it's hard to tell with Dragon Ball, and Bulma herself wasn't that tall when she was first introduced, but she was bigger than this.



I'm not sure I'd look at her and say, "That's a teen." Change her clothes and I'm sure I'd guess...I dunno, 10?

[Coola Yagami]

Here's this girl who looks like a teen

I'm still not sure I agree with this. Ignoring her choice in clothes, she's barely taller than Pan, who's about the same as Gohan was when he was about 9. It's true that it's hard to tell with Dragon Ball, and Bulma herself wasn't that tall when she was first introduced, but she was bigger than this.



I'm not sure I'd look at her and say, "That's a teen." Change her clothes and I'm sure I'd guess...I dunno, 10?

Bulma was taller than Bra when first introduced, and was clearly a teen with a teenage body. Bra has no body. Ignore the clothes. She got no T&A to speak of. Would people think Pan was older if she wore the same get-up?

[Senzu_Bean]

I think you guys are all crazy. But that's just me.

And me! Seriously, Bra even drives. Are you going to tell me in Japan besides 30 old men flirting with children the latter driving cars is also typical? Please.

Does anyone watch the show 'Lie to Me'? Bra acts and looks exactly the protagonist's daughter and she is 16 or 17.

The same can be said about Pan. I doubt in Japan children with less than ten years old go alone or with their boyfriends ( ) at the theater.

[TripleRach]

And me! Seriously, Bra even drives. Are you going to tell me in Japan besides 30 old men flirting with children the latter driving cars is also typical? Please.

Oolong could drive when he was 9 years old. I don't know if he actually had a license, but he was a pretty skilled driver.

[Senzu_Bean]

And me! Seriously, Bra even drives. Are you going to tell me in Japan besides 30 old men flirting with children the latter driving cars is also typical? Please.

Oolong could drive when he was 9 years old. I don't know if he actually had a license, but he was a pretty skilled driver.

I might I have missed the episode where Oolong reveals he is actually an Earthling human.

[TripleRach]

I might I have missed the episode where Oolong reveals he is actually an Earthling human.

And I must have missed the episode where Bra and Pan are revealed to be Earthling humans.

How about Gohan? Look at all the things he could do by age 9. I see no reason a girl who grew up around scientists who constantly create vehicles couldn't be similarly skilled about something as common as driving a car.

[Senzu_Bean]

And I must have missed the episode where Bra and Pan are revealed to be Earthling humans.

My mistake. They're Namekians.

How about Gohan? Look at all the things he could do by age 9.

Fight and study. There are many, many 9 years old kids who do that stuff. Driving cars, go out with a boyfriend, flirt with 30 old men and dress like a prostitute I actually never heard a 9 years old child that does such thing.

[VegettoEX]

Senzu_Bean, you've already been warned about the attitude. Knock off your bullshit responses with the rolling eyes.

What Rach is getting at is that these are not normal human beings on a normal Earth, and even ignoring what their genetics are, they are growing up in an environment far different from what you can even possibly begin to imagine. Just because you don't think people that age should be doing the things they do doesn't somehow change what age they are according to the facts laid out by the producers of the show. It all falls pretty much in line with everything that's been established up until this point, so there's really not much in the way of debate to be had other than, "Oh gross, I can't believe they did such and such when they're only [insert age here]!"

[Kaboom]

so there's really not much in the way of debate to be had other than, "Oh gross, I can't believe they did such and such when they're only [insert age here]!"

And that's even not so much a "DragonBall Earth thing" as it is a "Japan thing!"

... Provided that's what we're talking about here with Bra.

[TonyTheTiger]

The producers of the show also have Goku's capabilities all over the map, a nonsensical demonstration of how the underworld works, and various other logical inconsistencies. So, again, not seeing how this is so obviously not just as much an oversight as those others. Sure, maybe it isn't a mistake. It's possible. But I'm just incredibly surprised that I'm the only person here who sees it's potential as one.

It's not about it's "ickiness." It's about it's inconsistency with the rest of Dragon Ball which I think trumps "It's Japan." If this were Tenchi I wouldn't even bat an eye because something like this would be perfectly consistent in that context. But here the way they chose to go about it just confounds me. It's extremely bad writing if that was the plan from day 1 with all parties involved.

You can actually see it with Goten, too. The way the world seems to treat him, particularly Chi-Chi, would imply that he's a teenager. But that's impossible. Granted, Chi-Chi is Chi-Chi so who knows if she's just being the overbearing mom but she treated Gohan more like an adult when he was even younger than GT Goten is.

So that's why I say it seems to me like Toei didn't really take much care in the way of specific ages and just generally made everybody vaguely older (no different than how they made Goku vaguely stronger). As opposed to them saying in pre-production "After X number of years Bra is Y years old so make a Y year old Bra" and "Goten is Z years old so make a Z year old Goten." Again, if I'm wrong and they did actually do that then they did it incredibly poorly and haphazardly, giving absolutely no consistent evidence to the audience whatsoever, which is pretty much Writing 101.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Is it just me that thinks this thread is going around in circles?