My final thoughts on Gohan's level of SSJ vs. Dabra.

[Senzu_Bean]

Like when? There's a few times in both sagas where short bursts of lighting bolts were used as a "special effect," if that's what you mean. But that doesn't have much bearing on the other examples in question, which consists of entire chapter-long fights with them present and sustained or otherwise.

I'm referring to the fact they don't have lighting or aura in a few panels, when Goku have both in the only instance that somewhat describes what a Super Saiyan 2 is.

In light of all this, the lack of a '+' indicating continuation of Gohan's high-school SSj2 after volume 37 still holds weight, at least enough to be considered at odds with the note in Dabra's bio.

There is no meaning to "+" so you can't really label that as anything. Even what I posted above contradicts that.

It's still "an official source," which is what was asked and was important. The same book also says that SSj2 was never used within GT, so they may very well be correct, at least within their own continuity.

It is as official as GT.

[Kaboom]

I'm referring to the fact they don't have lighting or aura in a few panels, when Goku have both in the only instance that somewhat describes what a Super Saiyan 2 is.

Like I mentioned before, a few panels without lightning here and there does not an inconsistency make. There are such things as far-off shots, or "cramped" panels where it wouldn't be feasible or practical to draw so much detail, and of course there's always the possibility that Toriyama might forget every once in a while. Even in some instances, like Vegeta before eating the Senzu, they really could simply have dropped out of SSj2 for a moment to rest.

But we're not talking about any such instance here with Gohan and Dabra's fight. We're talking about an entire extended fight wherein the character is drawn in a very specific way, compared to other self-labeled instances to the contrary. Self-labeled. As in, just prior, he said, "here, I'll show you my super-super form" and then poof, there it was, lightning bolts and all. He TOLD us that he was going to use his Super Saiyan 2, showed it to us in a clear full-page spread... and then later he was using something that looked completely different.

This is not the same thing as "an odd panel here or there," and there's no way Toriyama would simply "forget" how to draw it the correct way so soon and for such a long period, and not to mention surrounded by other correct depictions of it.

There is no meaning to "+" so you can't really label that as anything. Even what I posted above contradicts that.

What else could a '+' next to a volume number possibly mean? Did you read my explanation for the '14-22' in Goku's section? I admitted that you had a good point, but there's a very good plausible reason for it.


Okay, look, I already made every point I really needed to make in my big post on the last page. I'll civilly re-summarize the facts here one last time, then try my best to sit it out and only deal with the thread from a moderation perspective.

• We were shown specifically in the manga itself what the two Super Saiyan forms look like compared to each other.
• If you believe it, then Gohan was only Super Saiyan 1.
• If you don't, then he could be Super Saiyan 2.
• The dialogue-driven plot points surrounding it make just as much or little sense either way.
• But only Gohan being SSj1 is also supported by Toriyama's art.

[Senzu_Bean]

I did but still that doesn't mean anything. Even more when such (fan)explanation is used to dismiss an official statement in the same guide.

There are numerous instances of non far-off shots or "cramped" panels that show Super Saiyans 2 without aura or lightning. If what Goku showed to Buu is strictly only what a SSJ2 can look like then there is an obvious contradiction.

The story really doesn't make sense if Gohan is only regular Super Saiyan, and the only thing labeling Gohan as anything in that time has him at Super Saiyan 2.

[Kaboom]

I did but still that doesn't mean anything. Even more when such (fan)explanation is used to dismiss an official statement in the same guide.

That "official statement" is at odds with another one within the same series of guidebooks (whether you want to admit it or not), and also at odds with a very clear and simple explanatory display from the manga itself. The guidebook is not infallible, and in this case has more than enough visual and narrative evidence going against it to merit disregarding that one little blurb.

The guidebooks were written by human beings, who can make mistakes. There's no need to fellate and value said books above even the original material it's supposed to supplement, even in the face of blatant inconsistency. Even the "Goku was an adult from Volumes 14-22" example which you used as an example is misleading and impossible to make sense of without a little insight and creativity.

If the guidebook told you that Vegeta fought as a Super Saiyan 3 against Kid Boo, would you or anyone else believe it? No. Why not? Because you can tell from just looking that he wasn't one. This is no different.

There are numerous instances of non far-off shots or "cramped" panels that show Super Saiyans 2 without aura or lightning. If what Goku showed to Buu is strictly only what a SSJ2 can look like then there is an obvious contradiction.

Come on now, obviously it's not present there because he's not displaying an aura at all. But he is a few pages later, and he's got lightning sparks back within it even in his injured and weakened state. Citing those panels is a bad example, and you know it. That's like... trying to say "you can't prove that Nappa wasn't a Super Saiyan!" by citing that he doesn't have any hair, and that without hair to be black or gold there's no way to tell. It's kind of the inverse equal of that, and just as bad.

I removed my comment from a prior post because I thought it was a little too much, but I'm going to say it again this time: you really are reaching, if you think that's a good example for your argument. You're blatantly nitpicking now, trying to pull out anything you possibly can to prevent admitting that there's a trend that isn't in your favor.

The story really doesn't make sense if Gohan is only regular Super Saiyan, and the only thing labeling Gohan as anything in that time has him at Super Saiyan 2.

No, like I said, there's enough both for and against each side even without taking the art or guidebooks into consideration. I'll slap together the few bigger examples I know of right now:

If Gohan was a Super Saiyan 1:

• - Why would he use a weaker form against an enemy he had to kill, instead of his strongest one?
  - Why wouldn't Goku and Vegeta encourage him to use his higher form, rather than to just "get angry and power up?"
  - What's up with the weird "further beyond Super Saiyan" comment from Gohan?

If Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2:

• - Why was Dabra treated like such a non-threat if he was stronger than any Super Saiyan 2, even Gohan the weakest?
  - Why is Gohan drawn as only a Super Saiyan 1, going against the clear labeled depiction of Super Saiyan 2 for himself and others elsewhere in the manga?
  - Why was the energy from Gohan and Dabra's SSj2-level fight so insignificant and useless to Bobbidi, compared to the massive amount stolen from SSj2 Gohan earlier?

See? There's plenty of "problems" on both sides. So I'll admit that, dialogue-wise, there's some things that don't make sense when you think that Gohan was only using Super Saiyan 1. Just like there are when you do to the contrary.

But again, only one side has the support of the artwork. Like with much of the Majin Boo arc, things are confusing when you go purely by the dialogue or notions of "logic," because the arc as a whole was so goofy. When it gets right down to it, the artwork is practically the only thing remaining across all of it's roughly 100 chapters that's consistently trustworthy. Hence why I trust it.

Look, I've been trying to be as civil and impartial as possible, for everyone's sakes, and just tried to provide input. I've made concessions in my own side of the debate in hopes that others might do the same. And on the first page, a few actually did. Several folks complimented others on their presentation of evidence, regardless of whether they agreed or not.

But above all else, I've been hoping that through such civil debate that you, Senzu_Bean, would at least acknowledge the possibility of a viewpoint other than your own, but it's become once again evident that you have no intention of doing anything but being stubborn and condescending, to the point of becoming desperate in presenting your "evidence" to defend what may very well be nothing more than a typo at all costs. Evidence and suggestions are met with accusation and rebelliousness. That's no way to carry on a conversation with people.

So now in retrospect, I regret that I even allowed this thread to stay open in the first place. I only did so because it looked like dbgtFO put a lot of effort into his original post. I should have simply left it locked so it would truly just be his "final thoughts" on the matter, but I had hoped it could flourish as a legitimate discussion, hopefully the last one on the subject for a very long time.

I see now that was a mistake, so I'm ending it before it gets any worse (trust me, it's for EVERYONE's benefit, in ways you may not realize). So let me wrap things up for everybody one more time, as neutrally as possible.

The guidebooks' information on the matter is self-conflicted, as is the dialogue within the manga. "Logic"-wise, the story makes just as much or as little sense regardless of whether Gohan was a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. However, the artwork indicates that he is a Super Saiyan 1. One's own viewpoint on the matter is entirely dependent on how they choose to take that to heart, if at all. It's up to you.

Now, we shall not be having another thread about this again for a very long time.