My final thoughts on Gohan's level of SSJ vs. Dabra.

[dbgtFO]

Okay, it's obvious that a lot of people don't like this topic, because it's basically been done so many times it's not funny, so instead of actually debating, what form Gohan was vs. Dabra, I'm instead going to post my thoughts on why I consider him SSJ 2, which in turn won't give me any need to debate it anymore, because my opinion will be out there, easy to link to.

Hopefully, you'll all be able to at least hear me out, before completely dismissing the topic as just "no lightning = no SSJ 2, end of story", because opening a thread with a predetermined bias often leads to not really hearing somebody out, since in your mind they are wrong and it's likely, that you thus won't pay attention to the points I'm bringing to the table.

So what am I trying to say?
Read this post with an open mind, before you let your already existing opinions blind you to the point, where you ignore my points.

All right?
Let's begin!

Why Gohan wasn't a SSJ 2.

First off there have been several justification theories for why Gohan was not SSJ 2(besides art of course).

The most common are:
1. He needs a Rage Catalyst to trigger it.
2. He needs a good deal of Time to trigger it.
3. Since it's a new transformation, he isn't used to it and is thus incapable of activating it whenever he wants.

Counters

1. Gohan clearly demonstrated at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, that he transformed into it, without needing anything in particular. If he did, he would have stated it/hinted at it or implied it.
Prior to the battle, Gohan witnessed Videl getting beat up so badly, that she could barely walk and out of anger Gohan only transformed into a SSJ. If it really was being angry he needed to transform into a SSJ 2, then it doesn't explain, why when actually getting angry and transforming because of it, that he only transformed to a SSJ 1.

The other part of the claim is, that Gohan used some leftover anger(plus anger at Kibito for telling him to transform and anger at possibly getting in trouble with school, so Gohan was a really angry man, when he transformed!) after already expressing it, to do it against Kibito. Needless to say, that is completely made up and not supported by the character in question either. Not to mention, by the time Gohan was told to transform, he wasn't angry at Spopovich anymore, Videl had been healed by the Senzu he gave her and he acted like his usual self, complete with being embarrased, when his classmates recognized him.

So the idea, that Gohan used anger at the tournament to go SSJ 2 is not supported by anything and is therefore baseless.

The last part of the claim is that Goku was telling Gohan that exact thing, when handling the Senzu to him, ie. needing to get angry to turn SSJ 2.

Let's see, what Goku really said:

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

So Goku never actually says: "You need to get angry Gohan, so you can go SSJ 2."
He told him to get angry and remember the fight with Cell and how he through anger released all the power he had.
So Goku meant for Gohan to do, what he has always done throughout the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs, getting enraged to unleash his dormant power, like what he did against Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Dodoria, Freeza and ultimately Cell.
The last comment means that Goku thought, that even a weaker Gohan would actually gain enough strength through his anger, that it would surpass everyone else. So Goku is clearly not talking about SSJ 2 in itself, since we know that SSJ 2 Goku was stronger than Gohan was vs. Cell.

Furthermore, if Goku really wanted Gohan to just be a SSJ 2, then it doesn't make sense, that he didn't just tell him to do whatever he did at the tournament, since Gohan happened to be a SSJ 2 there.
So Gohan's rage/anger boosts is what Goku talked about and nothing else.

2. This one could possibly have more basis to it, than the others. For example we know, that even though he hasn't been training, Gohan is capable of transforming into a SSJ relatively quickly. He did it when facing the robbers at the beginning of volume 36 and also, when getting ready to train with Goten.
Yet he uses several panels before actually turning into a SSJ 2, so it seems like it's true..

But when we get a look at Gohan's quote immediately before surpassing SSJ, it seems to be proven wrong:

Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want…Though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

From the looks of it, Gohan first decided to turn SSJ at that moment, when he's made up his mind, that he's going to become one.
And characters always tell, if they really are inhibited by something that makes it harder to transform fx. Goku, when we first see his SSJ 3, he claims, that he's not used to it and that's why it took so long.
If Gohan really had something preventing him from doing it, it would make sense, if he cared to tell us, when it's relevant. But he doesn't.

So it's not a very strong argument.

3. This has almost been completely answered by the above. However just to point out, it is true that newly aquired transformations are hard to tap into at any given point in time. Or at least the first stage of Super Saiyan is.
It is stated by Goku, that it took him some time to transform into a SSJ, whenever he wanted, when he talks with Future Trunks, and Gohan also has trouble with it in the Room of Spirit and Time and even notes it to be true, when he sees Goten effortlessly transforming into one.

But as already stated, if Gohan really had any trouble accessing the form, he would've stated it as such, yet he doesn't and if it's not stated to be the case, why should one assume it is?

So what have we learned?
It's not supported anywhere, that Gohan needs something extra(besides what any other guy requires) to turn SSJ 2 or that he is incapable of doing it, when he actually needs it.
So if one states that it is, I'd like to see where they are getting their facts from.

Moving right along!

Why Gohan was SSJ 2

Besides the obvious fact, that we have official confirmation that Gohan was a SSJ 2 against Dabra, I decided to dig in deeper to see, why Daizenshuu 7 would state that, when Gohan clearly has the aura only seen on FPSSJs!

FPSSJ Aura:


SSJ 2 Aura:

As you can see, a clear difference between the two, SSJ 2 got lightning and a more fierce aura, while SSJ aura looks weak by comparison.
And that's the key word here: weak! The auras are a visual representation of a character's power, so you can see who are supposed to look strong, compared to others or compared to one's various transformations.

Nappa for example had an impressive aura(almost like SSJ 2!), when he powered up against the Z Fighters, to show his awesome power compared to the auraless Earthlings and Piccolo, while against Goku his aura is not so much to speak of, even though he performed at his best according to himself.

So it's possible that Toriyama meant for that to mean, that Nappa is way stronger, than these guys, but he's nothing compared to this guy.

I believe that's also the out-universe answer to why Vegetto got lightning in his aura, when he transformed to a regular SSJ, simply to show how powerful and cool he was. But I'll get back to the art argument later... So the first part of my reasoning for why Gohan was SSJ 2 is:

Everything in the story tell us that Gohan is SSJ 2.

First off, by looking at how the story progressed, it became apparent, that Gohan's strength would be an issue later on. We see it as far back as when Gohan visits Bulma to get his Great Saiyaman costume, that Vegeta notes that Gohan's body is rusty and that he should train even in peace.
At the 25th TB it's confirmed, that Gohan is now far weaker than he was at the Cell Games, so these are little hints of what's yet to come.

After entering Babidi's Spaceship, Goku claims that Dabra is probably as strong as Cell, amusingly enough the guy Gohan was able to match/surpass 7 years ago as a SSJ 2 and just guess, who Gohan gets to fight...
Gohan gets to fight Dabra, a guy about as strong as Cell(later on stated stronger, than what Goku initially thought), but doesn't do so well because he slacked off.

So it seems pretty obvious to me, that Dabra was there to show how weak Gohan is now, compared to 7 years ago as a reminder, that one should train even in peace time.

Anyways another way the story progressed was that it followed a pattern apparently:

On Stage 1, Vegeta fights in regular state and has no trouble defeating his opponent.
On Stage 2(Yakon is not the true Stage 2 opponent though), Goku fights in regular state, has some minor trouble, goes SSJ and has some trouble keeping the aura up, when Yakon sucked out his light, but eventually wins by using a burst of SSJ 2, which Vegeta notes.
On Stage 3, Gohan fights Dabra and is actually losing the fight, but not to a degree, he couldn't win eventually. When we've looked at the previous fights, we can see that there is some progression with the forms used to fight in:

Base on Stage 1, Base, SSJ + SSJ 2 Burst on Stage 2, *Gohan* on Stage 3, High Powered SSJ 2s on Stage 4 and SSJ 3 level opponent on the Final Stage(Majin Buu).
So at the very least it seems logical to me, that the level Gohan was fighting Dabra at was a low powered SSJ 2 one.

But that isn't really convincing enough, so why don't I show the quotes that point to Gohan being SSJ 2:

Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let him do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

Here Goku lets us know, that Gohan is actually losing the battle, not completely, but he's losing it.

Now if Gohan wasn't a SSJ 2, that would make me say: why didn't anyone think it was odd, that Gohan just didn't go SSJ 2 to turn the tides?
As we've established, Gohan has no trouble going SSJ 2, so it doesn't make any sense for him to only use SSJ, when he's fighting a losing battle and Goku and Vegeta not questioning why he isn't one or why he doesn't use it, so he can win.

Also we see, that Goku is defensive about Gohan and wants Gohan to do the job. If Gohan is only using SSJ, then Goku is doing a really lousy job at defending him.
Since Goku could just say: "Gohan is going to win this, have you forgot, that he can easily access SSJ 2?"

But instead Goku can only justify his dislike for Vegeta interrupting the match, by saying: "It ain't like he's completely losing."

If Gohan really did have something else up his sleeve, why was it not stated? Why didn't Goku bring it up as justification for not ending the match? Why didn't Vegeta count on it either?

In fact Gohan only had one thing up his sleeve and that is:

Goku: “[...]Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

I already made it clear, that this quote shows us what Goku really wants Gohan to do.

He wants Gohan to get anger boosts or whatever one might call them, since that's where Gohan's wondrous power(potentially) greater than Goku comes from and that's actually the only extra thing Gohan got up his sleeve. He doesn't have an extra transformation just waiting to be used, he got his rage boosts and that's it.

Another quote to be brought up:

Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

When asked why Goku's damage energy has filled Buu's Egg up already, Gohan's response is, that it's because both Goku and Vegeta have further surpassed Super Saiyan.
In Viz this is worded differently, they leave out "further" and because of that it sounds like Gohan and Dabra were not fighting on a level that has surpassed SSJ, meaning it's proof of Gohan only being SSJ.

However as we can see from the above quote found in the Strength Checker, Gohan said further surpassed SSJ, not simply surpassed Super Saiyan(which any SSJ 2 does), but further surpassed it.
This means that Gohan is either suggesting Vegeta and Goku are on the level of high powered SSJ 2s, which he and Dabra were not or he thinks that they are on a new level of SSJ(a la SSJ 3).
Whichever one it is he means, the point is very clear.

If Gohan was not fighting Dabra as a SSJ 2, there's still another level of power that could be the cause of the rapid increase in damage energy, yet Gohan knows it's the level beyond it.

So to illustrate
If Gohan was SSJ:

Gohan & Dabra < SSJ 2/surpassed Super Saiyan < Goku & Vegeta(further surpassed Super Saiyan).

So there's a level of power between the levels G&D and G&V were fighting at, yet Gohan immediately realizes, that G&V are at the level beyond the level, that's beyond him and Dabra.

If Gohan was SSJ 2:

Gohan & Dabra(surpassed Super Saiyan) < Goku & Vegeta(further surpassed SSJ)

Since there's no extra level between him and G&V, this fits with his quote; he and Dabra have surpassed SSJ(not that Dabra is a Saiyan or anything), while Vegeta and Goku have further surpassed SSJ.

So since I've now made it clear, why I think he's SSJ 2 and backed it up with quotes, it's about time I move on to:

Why Gohan was drawn as a Super Saiyan.

Earlier I said, that auras are there to emphasize one's power.
I believe Gohan's lack of SSJ 2 specific traits, when fighting Dabra and Buu and when pulling out the Z Sword is simply because it was artistic license to show, that Gohan's SSJ 2 was weaker than Vegeta's and Goku's.

Of course that makes it inconsistent with the aura he had at the tournament, but I think it's because it wasn't established yet that Goku and Vegeta were stronger than him, so at the time Gohan's still the strongest character until it was established later on, that he weren't and Toriyama then figured out, what he would do with him, when we arrived at that chapter.

Since my personal assumptions on why Gohan has a weaker aura against Dabra etc. aren't fact(or it's not confirmed to be fact) I'll use an example from later in the manga, where I think Toriyama emphasizes the difference between a weakened SSJ 2 character and a Full Power one by giving him a weaker aura.

The person I'm talking about is Vegeta.
Look at this page: http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1021/131kq.jpg

And this is the previous one just to show, that Vegeta was a SSJ 2, when knocking out Goku from behind: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2255/130rh.jpg

In context, Vegeta asked Goku for a Senzu because he was weakened and needed his energy restored, he knocks Goku down from behind and eats the Senzu and then powers up.

Look at the first link I posted. In the 1st and 3rd panels Vegeta very clearly has a SSJ aura, but in the even smaller panel 6, Vegeta got lightning and a more fierce aura. Now why did Toriyama not apply SSJ 2 specific traits to the two top panels, but went out of his way to apply them to the even smaller one? I think the answer is pretty obvious: Toriyama showed that Vegeta was weak before eating the Senzu by giving him a weaker aura and then gave him a stronger aura immediately after to show, that Vegeta is strong again.

If that isn't enough, then there's also the rather large 4th panel, where Vegeta powers up with a SSJ aura, even thuogh we know he was SSJ 2 throughout, so that pretty much seals the deal for me personally.

My belief ends up being:
Toriyama drew the auras to fit with the context of the story.

So that's why I think, that Gohan's weak SSJ 2 aura was the intended meaning all along and that Daizenshuu 7 says Dabra fought SSJ 2 Gohan probably to avoid confusion, if the manga wasn't clear enough, since the Daizenshuu 7's human dictionary usually doesn't specify which forms the characters were using, unless absolutely necessary.

So now, that I've gone over the aura element of it, there's the final segment: The Hair.
Before the 25th TB, Gohan's SSJ form had the two strands of hair similar(kinda) to his base form, but at the 25th TB, when the brutal defeat of Videl triggered his SSJ transformation, Gohan only has one strand hair similar to his later SSJ 2 transformation, so from the looks of it, it doesn't seem possible to prove, that he was SSJ 2 by backing it up with the hair argument.

But let's take a look at it anyways:
3/4 view:
SSJ Gohan at the Tournament SSJ 2 Gohan at the Tournament Gohan post Tournament.

Front-view:

Not really much to say on this. One thing I noted is how Gohan's hair after the tournament looks shorter, than previously.

Anyways those are my final thoughts on Gohan's level of SSJ vs. Dabra. Hopefully I've gotten through to some of you!
And a little note, I don't like a reply that goes: "You know, I could counter all that stuff, but I just don't want to, because I hate this topic." If you can counter it, then don't tell me you can, and do it instead and I'll be happy to learn something new. Otherwise you're just wasting everyones time.
But I guess I don't have the authority to negate such meaningless posts...

But this is how I feel about Gohan vs. Dabra and I hope you are all fine with it being brought up this one last time(hopefully, because now I'm getting tired of it!).
And I guess you can post your thoughts on why you believe something else(but I don't want this turning into another of those nasty debates).

And yes this is tl;dr.

[Kaboom]

I will allow this thread to continue in the interest of fairness and free speech and all that bologna, but I will be monitoring it like a hawk.


So the guidebook says Dabra fought SSj2 Gohan? Well, another guidebook says that Gohan never used SSj2 after volume 37. And yet another one confirms that SSj2 has lightning bolts in its aura. 2-vs-1?

Somehow, I doubt Toriyama is nearly so "cryptic" in how he draws and portrays things. If it's drawn as something, then you can bet the farm it's probably meant to be what it looks like. And obviously, the big underlying focus of the matter is, "what exactly does Super Saiyan 2 look like?"

I know that many people will say, "well, it was never actually said lighting is a trademark of SSj2!" First off, not only was it said in a guidebook (the GT Perfect Files mentioned it), but it was explained in the manga, too! Goku actually super-plainly and clearly laid out how the Super Saiyan forms look for us, as a lead-in to his big premiere of SSj3.

"This is normal."
*BOOM*
"This is Super Saiyan." (Gold spiky hair, flame-like aura with no lightning bolts)
*BOOM*
"This is Super Saiyan 2." (Spikier hair, fiercer aura with lightning bolts)

I mean, if one of the characters themselves, the only Saiyan to ever achieve and be seen in all five Super Saiyan forms (counting the "grades" as well), giving us basically "Super Saiyan Form Appearances 101" in plain and simple language isn't enough to make the visual differences clear... then what is? We don't need things super-detailed in that regard within the guidebooks because we actually already HAVE everything we need shown to us in the manga itself. It's as if it was for our sakes just as much as for Majin Boo's. As if Toriyama himself was saying, "here, I know there's a lot of Super Saiyan forms now, so here's how to tell the difference."

Aside from the fight in question here, every "other" instance of SSj2 is drawn correctly, with the lightning, and yet Gohan against Dabra here is not. It's not "proof to the contrary," rather it's just following the same trend. And who's to say that Vegeta didn't simply drop out of SSj2 for a moment there to rest before he healed and powered up again? He did have them right in the prior panel, after all, and it's not like anything happened to make him more tired or to lose power.

Simply portraying a level of power has nothing to do with the trademark signs of a transformation. When he was gravely injured against Cell, with "half his power" gone, younger Gohan still had the lightning bolts. When Vegeta was battered and weakened against Majin Boo, he still had the lightning bolts. When Goku was just as beaten up as Vegeta from their fight, he still had the lightning bolts.

And take other characters for example. Super Saiyan Gotenks was supposedly as powerful as any of the Super Saiyan 2s, and arguably on the same level as SSj3 Goku. He still only had a regular SSj1 aura, because he was only at SSj1. Same with Vegetto, who in just his SSj1 form has power to trump anybody else's SSj3 by light-years, but still only sustains an SSj1 aura... because he was only using SSj1.

So, yeah. "No lightning" = "no SSj2." It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

As for the rest of the quotes, and tiny details, and observations... I've been through this topic A LOT. In the process, I've discovered from tons and tons of observation and participation that the "logic" of the situation is wholly subjective and depends on whether you want to believe that factoid about SSj2's lightning or if you want to fight it. If you realize it, then everything falls into line along with it. If you don't, then your logic falls in line to the contrary instead. Without it, everything's blurry, and this is why there's so much debate.

Basically, the only "right or wrong" here is whether, in the manga, sustained and consistent lightning in the aura is a trademark sign of Super Saiyan 2. The rest of the quotes and examples and comparisons on the subject will, only somewhat surprisingly, go either way. They are entirely dependent on the underlying "issue" of SSj2's lightning sparks. Once that's cleared up, then the plain and observable truth of the situation is clear, and the little blurb in Dabra's D7 bio that somehow got past the spot-checkers means nothing.

So I choose to take Goku's demonstration of the Super Saiyan forms, along with every other clear observable instance of them, and finally along with the only guidebook mention of it, all to heart, and go with the notion that Super Saiyan 2 has lightning in its aura. After that, my stance on the Dabra vs Gohan "issue" speaks for itself.

The story makes just as much sense either way. Because saying something like "Toriyama decided to draw the aura differently to demonstrate a lower power" is every single bit as plausible as, "Toriyama stopped bothering to draw Gohan's hair any differently between SSj1 and SSj2." The same could be said for a variety of points on both sides.

[Amigo Ten]

It seems very obvious that was he just Super Saiyan. I trust Toriyama's art way more than his writing. However, him being just Super Saiyan is so silly I just ignore it and say he was SS2.

[Godo]

It seems very obvious that was he just Super Saiyan. I trust Toriyama's art way more than his writing. However, him being just Super Saiyan is so silly I just ignore it and say he was SS2.

But why? If Dabra was at SSJ level, then it would make sense for Gohan to fight him equally instead of quickly finishing him off, just like Vegeta not transforming against Pui Pui and Goku not transforming to defeat Yakon (at least to be able to defeat him, he could have done without it if Yakon didn't turn everything dark).
No one ever transforms just to be able to overpower a villain. I don't see any of the heroes ever doing that. They only transform if they aren't able to fight an opponent in their present state.
At least that's why I don't think that it's unthinkable for Gohan to be only a SSJ1.

But hell, if Toriyama directly came out and said that Gohan was a SSJ2, I'd swallow it and have to admit it. But in the end I must admit that it isn't a big issue. In the end it was an unimpressive fight and non-conclusive. It's like overanalyzing Vegeta post-zenkai vs. Freeza's 4th form. It doesn't lead to anything important in the end, and doesn't influence the story whatsoever.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I commend you for putting together quite an interesting argument together, dbgtFO. It's really convincing.

[Senzu_Bean]

I commend you for putting together quite an interesting argument together, dbgtFO. It's really convincing.

Your post is going to be deleted, you know? Those who agree with him have their posts deleted by those who have the power to do so.

Like mine was for two times already and it probably will be a third time. And I thought you had the right to freely post unless you're offensive in here.

[Kaboom]

Your post is going to be deleted, you know? Those who agree with him have their posts deleted by those who have the power to do so. Like mine was for two times already and it probably will be a third time. And I thought you had the right to freely post unless you're offensive in here.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4's comment was encouraging and positive. Yours were condescending and disruptive, and THAT is why they were deleted. I don't know why I expected you to realize that and take it in stride, but if it happens again, you take a month's vacation. I will not have you spreading your holier-than-thou upstart attitude to a thread which is already so touchy. Now knock it off.

[Senzu_Bean]

Super Saiyan Turlast x4's comment was encouraging and positive.

As was mine. It isn't my problem you don't agree with the thread's conclusion.

[Kaboom]

As was mine.

Comments like, "this will end the silly debate once and for all" and "people are just going to pull things out of their asses" are not encouraging or positive. They are backhanded and snitty. Don't think I didn't read the posts before I deleted them. Now for the second and last time, knock it off.

[lash]

Good topic dbgtFO. Good points all around.

Unfortunately this:

I believe Gohan's lack of SSJ 2 specific traits, when fighting Dabra and Buu and when pulling out the Z Sword is simply because it was artistic license to show, that Gohan's SSJ 2 was weaker than Vegeta's and Goku's.

Of course that makes it inconsistent with the aura he had at the tournament, but I think it's because it wasn't established yet that Goku and Vegeta were stronger than him, so at the time Gohan's still the strongest character until it was established later on, that he weren't and Toriyama then figured out, what he would do with him, when we arrived at that chapter.

Just doesn't convince me. That's making huge unsupported or backed up assumptions on what was going on in Toriyama's mind. It just doesn't add up to me. Gohan is supposedly the strongest at the moment in the Tournament yet Vegeta goes on to state he's FAR weaker then his child state? Clearly Toriyama had an idea where he was going with Gohan's power already by this point. He had no issues distinguishing from his SSj1 form(with sunglasses) and his SSJ2 state. To say barely a chapter later Toriyama "finally" decided to downgrade Gohan's appearance to show how weak he is in comparison to Goku and Vegeta(who furthermore hadn't even been SHOWN as SSJ2s with that aura yet)...while knowing full well how he drew Gohan earlier(in other words jeopardizing consistency in his own manga) is really really reaching. I wouldn't see him doing that at all. If Toriyama took off the SSJ2 type aura and lightning at that moment in the tournament, I'd have no doubt in my mind that Toriyama intentional made Gohan a SSJ2 against Dabra. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Lastly, even IF one was to go with that Toriyama-changed-Gohan's-aura-to-depict-weakness assumption there is no "in-universe" explanation to cover the random aura change.

Personally, I'll just stick with the idea that Gohan fought as a SSJ2 off panel...even if that's a bit of a reach too.
Daizenshuu claims stay uncontradicted and support one another, and everything works a whole lot better in my point of view.

Look at the first link I posted. In the 1st and 3rd panels Vegeta very clearly has a SSJ aura, but in the even smaller panel 6, Vegeta got lightning and a more fierce aura. Now why did Toriyama not apply SSJ 2 specific traits to the two top panels, but went out of his way to apply them to the even smaller one? I think the answer is pretty obvious: Toriyama showed that Vegeta was weak before eating the Senzu by giving him a weaker aura and then gave him a stronger aura immediately after to show, that Vegeta is strong again.

Vegeta might have simply reverted back to his basic SSJ state.

[Rocketman]

Toriyama showed that Vegeta was weak before eating the Senzu by giving him a weaker aura

Vegeta is a powerful SS2 (lightning everywhere!)
-Vegeta fights Goku to a draw in long, exhaustive combat.
Vegeta is still a powerful SS2 (still lightning).
-Vegeta knocks out Goku with a piddling suckerpunch.
Vegeta is a weak SS2 (no lightning).

That doesn't follow too well, methinks.

[Son_Gohan]

I agree with you for the most part, dbgtFO.

I've viewed Gohan as a SSJ2 in that fight from as far back as I can remember; for reasons you've already pointed out above, and some which you haven't. When taking all evidence into consideration (and not simply a single area of argument), I easily reached that same conclusion... that it made absolutely no sense for Gohan to mysteriously lose his strongest form after the tournament, without so much as a peep from him expressing such. The whole aura subject with "Lightning = SSJ2" seemed to be the sole line of reasoning on why he wouldn't be one, however, I didn't see it much differently from what Goku & Gohan showcased at the Cell Games with Super Saiyan 1.

[Rocketman]

however, I didn't see it much differently from what Goku & Gohan showcased at the Cell Games with Super Saiyan 1.

Gohan mastered SS2 by loafing around for seven years?

[GamingBuddha]

So the guidebook says Dabra fought SSj2 Gohan? Well, another guidebook says that Gohan never used SSj2 after volume 37. And yet another one confirms that SSj2 has lightning bolts in its aura. 2-vs-1?

Can you say which guidebooks are saying what?

But why? If Dabra was at SSJ level, then it would make sense for Gohan to fight him equally instead of quickly finishing him off, just like Vegeta not transforming against Pui Pui and Goku not transforming to defeat Yakon (at least to be able to defeat him, he could have done without it if Yakon didn't turn everything dark).
No one ever transforms just to be able to overpower a villain. I don't see any of the heroes ever doing that. They only transform if they aren't able to fight an opponent in their present state.

But it wasn't an equal fight since Dabra was beating him. I don't see why Gohan would choose losing to Dabra over going SSJ2 and winning. Also, Dabra was stated to be stronger than Cell and Gohan was said to have gotten weaker since the Cell Games. If that's the case, then Gohan wouldn't have even stood a chance if he was just using SSJ1.

[Kaboom]

Can you say which guidebooks are saying what?

Sure.

Dabra's short character bio in Daizenshuu 7 says that he "fought an even battle against Super Saiyan 2 Gohan."

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide for Gohan has a section for his "high school era Super Saiyan 2," with a picture of him within the stage from the tournament. It says he used it in Volume 37 (the tournament), but lacks the "+" next to the volume number seen in other forms for Gohan and other characters, which would indicate it was used in any instance beyond that. Gohan's battle with Dabra was contained entirely within Volume 38.

One of the Dragon Ball GT "Perfect Files" books has an in-depth section on the Super Saiyan forms, and lists "sparks in the aura" as one of the trademark visual traits of Super Saiyan 2.

[Kroni_Hunter]

It just comes down to whether you give more bearing to a somewhat established fact (that lightning = SSJ2) or if you give more bearing to the fact that it is illogical for him to only be SSJ1. Yes, I am saying it is illogical, it makes absolutely no sense. Of course there's no one right answer, but I just can't excuse the fact that SSJ1 Gohan would be completely useless against someone stronger than Super Perfect Cell.

Also, now that I bring it up, I have seen several times "No Lightning = No SJJ2" I find this to have an inherent logical flaw. Yes, Goku gets lightning and says "This is SSJ2" and that logically follows that "Lightning can be SSJ2" This does not mean that "Lightning MUST be SSJ2" or that "No Lightning = No SJJ2". It just showcases one situation in which the condition of having lightning is accompanied with the condition of SSJ2. I realize that this is not the strongest argument, but I believe there is something there. SSJ1 has many variants (Uncontrolled, FPSSJ, FPSSJ2, USSJ, even False SSJ) Why can't SSJ2 have such varients as well?

[Rocketman]

Why can't SSJ2 have such varients as well?

It could, but Gohan would not be the one to showcase them. All the variants of SS1 were from training.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Hey dbgtFO, could you post the Japanese panel where Gohan speaks about the level of Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta were at during their battle? I'd like to take a look at the wording on Japanese.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm still waiting for an official statement, besides GT of course, that Super Saiyans 2 always have lighting. Cause there are numerous instances that a SSJ2 doesn't have lighting nor support an aura. If what Goku showed to Buu is only what a Super Saiyan 2 can look like then Gohan and Vegeta are constantly changing between SSJ and SSJ2 against Cell and Buu respectively.

Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" guide for Gohan has a section for his "high school era Super Saiyan 2," with a picture of him within the stage from the tournament. It says he used it in Volume 37 (the tournament), but lacks the "+" next to the volume number seen in other forms for Gohan and other characters, which would indicate it was used in any instance beyond that.

Goku isn't an adult after chapter 22 then.

I didn't think the meaning of "First Appears" is that hard to grasp nor have seen the subtitle giving a meaning to "+".

One of the Dragon Ball GT "Perfect Files" books has an in-depth section on the Super Saiyan forms, and lists "sparks in the aura" as one of the trademark visual traits of Super Saiyan 2.

GT and any GT related material isn't consistent with the manga, otherwise Super Saiyan 2 CAN and DOESN'T have "sparks in the aura".

[Kaboom]

If what Goku showed to Buu is only what a Super Saiyan 2 can look like then Gohan and Vegeta are constantly changing between SSJ and SSJ2 against Cell and Buu respectively.

Like when? There's a few times in both sagas where short bursts of lighting bolts were used as a "special effect," if that's what you mean. But that doesn't have much bearing on the other examples in question, which consists of entire chapter-long fights with them present and sustained or otherwise.

Goku isn't an adult after chapter 22 then.
I didn't think the meaning of "First Appears" is that hard to grasp nor have seen the subtitle giving a meaning to "+".

You bring up an interesting point. It's a curious inconsistency with Goku there. Why not simply put in Volume 14+ or just Volume 14 if the "first appears" text is all that's needed? Because you're right, he obviously was an "adult" after that. What happened in volume 22 that might cause Goku to not be considered an "adult" anymore? Did some new "phase" of his life start during that time?

When I think of it that way, and after checking the manga, perhaps they stopped it there because that's when he was shown to have gone beyond normal Saiyan limits, and was first labeled as a "Super Saiyan" (when he showed up and fought the Ginyu Force). Hence he was no longer just an "adult," because that new Super Saiyan identity took over at that point, even though he didn't make the true transformation until volume 27 (and beyond). That's a plausible explanation, I think.

In light this, the lack of a '+' indicating continuation of Gohan's high-school SSj2 after volume 37 still holds weight, at least enough to be considered at odds with the note in Dabra's bio. Especially because it's still used appropriately in every other instance.

GT and any GT related material isn't consistent with the manga, otherwise Super Saiyan 2 CAN and DOESN'T have "sparks in the aura".

It's still "an official source," which is what was asked and was important. The same book also says that SSj2 was never used within GT, so they may very well be correct, at least within their own continuity.