Most UNDERrated characters in terms of power?

[In Brightest Day]

I will repeat the names Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Yamcha, just because it needs to be said.

With that said, Tien seems to get either highly overrated, or criminally underrated (with the rest of the Earthlings). I would laugh at the thought of Tien being at Recoome level (or lower), but I still have him losing to the base Saiyans by a fair way during the Android and Buu arcs. Like, if base Vegeta and Son Goku are around the 10,000,000 mark in the Android arc, then Ten would be in the 2.5 to 3,000,000 range, with Kuririn being slightly above that and Yamcha being around the late 1 millions/early 2 millions at that stage. Just my two cents.

Oh, god. Piccolo can't be repeated enough either.


Edit: By the way, if the Ki-Ko-Ho is giving Semi-Perfect Cell problems, then no one that has appeared before him is tanking that attack. That includes Imperfect Cell, the Androids (barring Gero & #19, for obvious reasons), Piccolo, the Super Saiyans and Frieza. Sorry.

[CatouttaHell]

Boo Arc Base Goten and Trunks are on par with #18, and the older Base Saiya-jins are many times above that. There's no way the Earthlings can be anywhere near their powers.

[In Brightest Day]

Which is why they had to turn Super Saiyan to fight her, right?

[CatouttaHell]

The Daizenshuu states Base Trunks is on par with #18. And the only reason he went SSjin is because it was hard to fight in that costume. The Earthlings aren't going to reach #18's level by doing MOUNTAIN TRAINING, as Rocketman would put it.

[In Brightest Day]

The Daizenshuu says Trunks is equal with #18... Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd I should not take it with a grain salt like a ton of other bullshit written in there, why? (Rhetorical question)

I agree about the humans never reaching #18's level, though. It's not like the base Saiyans could either. :/


Edit: to avoid going down a track that's been debated over a hundred times and hasn't gone anywhere, I'll say now that I'm fine with others disagreeing on this topic. The humans power later on in the series is fairly subjective, so whatever. I was just stating my opinion.

[goldsaint13]

And here is the one which suggests he never used SSj2 beyond Volume 37, while his fight with Dabra is in Volume 38. So the Daizenshuu are at odds with each other on that little topic. Then there's this, which lays out the distinct visual differences between the two forms as well.

I'm afraid it's not so doubt-free after all.

The information brought in Daizenshuu 7 was their final word on the matter.
It's pretty obvious his aura is that of a regular Super Saiyan in the manga though, so I guess it's a possible retcon, considering that same bio said Dabra equals Cell and Gohan fought evenly with him, making it unlikely it was a mistake.

Or even better, Goku's later plain and simple straight-up demonstration and labeling of each form and what they look like takes precedence over everything else, guidebooks be damned.

But whatever, I was just making sure the other elements at least got mentioned for goldsaint's sake. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic!

Well, that talks about Goku's transformations... I think it takes into account only Goku's use of SSJ2, not Gohan's...

Dabra equals Cell but it's not known what Perfect form he equals... It can be assumed by how Gohan fought him... Considering Gohan a SSJ2 means having Dabra = Super Perfect Cell...
Perfect Cell was too far from a SSJ2 to be able to fight evenly or even above one of them, although not one of the strongest...

Well I was mainly referring to when Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell, then later said he's way stronger than he thought. Though you're right in that he did mention his magic when he made that second comment.

Of course... Magic is not to be taken lightly... It can often overcome battle power as it has been shown... Kaioshin himself can stop a SSJ2 with magic even being under SSJ2 level... Or Majin Buu can turn enemies into food even when they overcome his power greatly... But the best example is Babidi himself... He is a Wizard with possibly common people strength (Kaioshin said he has no fighting power) but with dangerous magic that can be a threat for even a warrior with billions of power level...
Magic had been always a common thing in the series... Often underrated but very useful and dangerous... We can discuss the magic matter in a separate thread...

I agree, that makes the most sense. I find it ridiculous that Gohan would go SSjin 2 just to show off to some random stranger, but would stay in SSjin when his life is in danger against the Devil and a genocidal wizard that the gods fear. Here are Toriyama's movie Gohan designs, BTW, if you're curious.

Of course... Actually Kibito didn't knew about SSJ2 at all but Gohan showed it on his own will... It would make no sense to hold back that much against the strongest enemies he fought or when he tried to pull the sword...

Even Vegeta wasn't exactly implied to be capable of one-shotting a guy like Dabura. He merely says they can manage something and that he's not unbeatable. Now I'm not saying Vegeta wouldn't definitely defeat him with SSjin 2... but that's just not something I'd expect to hear about a guy who has trouble with SSjin Gohan lol.

Of course, Vegeta is not a lot stronger than Gohan without the Majin Mark... He only said that both himself and Goku are stronger than Gohan and that Dabra is not an unbeatble enemy like he would have been at the time of Cell Games...
Of course Vegeta would defeat Dabra turning SSJ2 and not without fighting at 100%...
Only with the Majin Mark he could be able not just to one-shotting him, but to defeat him with moderate easiness...

Good point on that.

Thanks... I always try to drive back the Movies levels close to canon common sense...

That's an interesting thought actually. I remember discussing this with you before and Goku using an unseen Kaio-ken x10 or Kaio-ken x20 against Coola DEFINITELY makes things more sane than Base Goku just being at 150,000,000. Goku used the Kaio-ken in the Anime without any signs of it before, Kaio-sama himself confirmed it, so there is precedent to this.

Yeah, that's it... He could be actually a bit stronger than he was against Freezer, but still in the range of Androids saga... He may be as strong as Vegeta against No. 19 and No. 18 that was suggested to be stronger than previous SSJ Goku...
This seems to be confirmed when Goku and Vegeta fight a Metal Cooler and seem to be equal as SSJ... And a single Metal Cooler is of course a lot stronger than 5th form Cooler from the previous Movie... A Metal Cooler could be easily like No. 18 or something similar...

Yeah I'm starting to think you're right about this. Something like:

"Base" Coola - 60,000,000
Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 55,000,000
Base Goku - 5,500,000

Makes a lot more sense, canon-wise than Base Goku being on par with his SSjin the last time it appeared. All of the movies tend to mirror the canon storyline they're ripping off from, and Base Coola vs. Goku might be mirroring Goku constantly using the Kaio-ken x10 "invisibly" against Base Freeza.

That has to be definitely like this, more or less... A 5.500.000 base Goku would be a 275.000.000 SSJ Goku that is far above Namek Goku but still in ranges reasonable with the canon placement of that Movie that is like Androids saga or its sourroundings...
This could allow 5th Form Cooler to be even close to 200.000.000, a lot stronger than Freezer 100%, but still a piece of cake for that SSJ Goku...

This makes a lot more sense indeed...

Coola being unaware of 100% is possible. Maybe "50%" and "70%" is just their base forms and they both found ways of increasing their power. Freeza doing his equivalent of SSjin Grade 2/3 (what Vegeta and Trunks came up with in the RoSaT) that bulked him up but strained him horribly, and Coola doing his equivalent of SSjin 2, so to say. Coola definitely didn't buff up or otherwise stop being skinny until he went into his fifth form, unlike Freeza.

That's it... Freezer didn't have further transformations but his 4th form is very strong, although he is not used to it and can't keep it for a long time (he never imagined to have a SSJ to fight)... Cooler instead was positive on being stronger than his brother thanks to his further transformation... He would have been surprised by Freezer's 100% but still able to overcome him with 5th form... We can say Cooler underrated his brother not knowing about his 100% but was actually right about being stronger than him anyway, thanks to the 5th form... Without the 5th form, he wouldn't be able to equal his brother and not even their father probably... With the 5th form he can surpass them both...

I agree, Gohan had an anger boost against Perfect Cell the whole time and used the anger boost to kill Super Perfect Cell. So it makes sense that Teen Gohan is always being compared to the Gohan that killed Cell when they say he was stronger then. They never outright say he got weaker though, just that he was stronger. With Gohan and his rage boosts, him being stronger before doesn't mean much. Gohan was at 2,800 when he snapped after Piccolo died, and was then at 1,500 on Namek. Obviously that means he was stronger on Earth but it doesn't mean he got weaker by any stretch of the imagination.

That's definitely it...

Gohan simply stayed the same as he was at Cell Game before getting angered... But from Goku's and Vegeta's point of view he got weaker simply because his *true* power was that used when he was angered and with their warrior mind, it would have been obvious that a fighter would have trained to gain control above that hidden power previously driven by emotion, but Gohan is far from having the mind of a fighter... Actually, if he wouldn't be like that, Goku would never say that with anger Gohan would be unbeatble like he was back then...

Goku even flat-out states for him to get angry like he did against Cell, and that he can defeat anybody at all if he does that. That shows that Enraged SSjin 2 Teen Gohan > everyone who has appeared so far.

Yes, but............... Actually SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta are stated to be on par if not a bit stronger than Gohan was at Cell Games...
This somehow defines that Gohan would be more or less like them but definitely not stronger...

I don't really see how Gohan could have gotten weaker to be honest. If Roshi sits back and does nothing all day he'll get weaker because his muscles will atrophy, but Gohan relies on spiritual energy, which can't atrophy from him sitting around and doing nothing.

Well, Muten himself relies on Ki... But Muten is old and his body is already weakened by itself... Gohan instead was a kid and becoming a teen could not weaken him, actually it should strengthen him up with the developing and growing of all his body towards the adulthood...

Freeza never trains or otherwise puts forth any effort into anything whatsoever unless absolutely necessary but does he get weaker? Of course not.

He simply lacks the training and attitude to manage his max power properly... He never got his body used to it...

IMO it's very heavily implied and makes the most sense that Gohan never got weaker and simply couldn't gain power from rage. The Daizenshuu flat-out confirms this, and the manga, when you look at it from that perspective, makes complete sense too. Absolutely nobody ever says Gohan got WEAKER, and Goku himself says if he gets angry like he did then he can defeat anybody.

Yes, I'm convinced of it!!! Maybe Toriyama meant this concept since the beginning... Goku and Vegeta blame him not because he is weaker but because he can't get as strong as he could...

Manga-wise it can be argued, but Toei clearly tried very hard to get the point of Gohan being a SSjin 2 across in the Anime.

Do you know if Dragon Ball Kai added sparks to Gohan?

I will repeat the names Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Yamcha, just because it needs to be said.

Actually Tenshinhan is greatly underrated... Or his Kikoho and Shin Kikoho are... Actually he pushed Cell and vanished a Super Buutenks power ball... I'll never be convinced he is weaker than Krilin, even under torture...
Yamcha was simply unaware of Ten improvements...

Also... Ten always said he would have fought Piccolo as a rival... Someone may take him not too seriously at first, expecially when Piccolo fuses with Kami, but during Buu's arc it should be reconsidered...

Boo Arc Base Goten and Trunks are on par with #18, and the older Base Saiya-jins are many times above that. There's no way the Earthlings can be anywhere near their powers.

The Daizenshuu states Base Trunks is on par with #18. And the only reason he went SSjin is because it was hard to fight in that costume. The Earthlings aren't going to reach #18's level by doing MOUNTAIN TRAINING, as Rocketman would put it.

Wait wait...

Base Trunks could never be on par with No. 18 or with Freezer either actually...
It means that SSJ Trunks was on par with No. 18 because he was holding back... He is far stronger otherwise, although he and Goten rarely uses their full power, maybe because they got scolded about their mothers about the whole SSJ capacity...

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Kid Trunks and Goten. SSJ2 Adult gohan, cmon he didn't slack off that much. Frieza. Well he did take damage from a spirit bomb then caught at not his 100% mecha power by SSJ Trunks. Super 13 I consider pretty tough but everyone thinks he's only Imperfect Cell/Android 17 level. He's super for a reason.
Mr Satan. Champion for a reason.

[Fox666]

I don't think Freeza using 100% of his power or not makes any difference. Probably he would get cut in half by Trunks' sword the same way.

[dbgtFO]

The Daizenshuu says Trunks is equal with #18... Aaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd I should not take it with a grain salt like a ton of other bullshit written in there, why? (Rhetorical question)

When it's what their fight shows us, I doubt any blame can be targeted at the Daizenshuu.

[CatouttaHell]

Of course... Magic is not to be taken lightly... It can often overcome battle power as it has been shown... Kaioshin himself can stop a SSJ2 with magic even being under SSJ2 level... Or Majin Buu can turn enemies into food even when they overcome his power greatly... But the best example is Babidi himself... He is a Wizard with possibly common people strength (Kaioshin said he has no fighting power) but with dangerous magic that can be a threat for even a warrior with billions of power level...
Magic had been always a common thing in the series... Often underrated but very useful and dangerous... We can discuss the magic matter in a separate thread...

Indeed. Dabura being equal to Super Perfect Cell and simply having a huge advantage over him in that he's proficient is magic makes the most sense. Would be interesting to see the two of them fight. One relies on all of the techniques of the Z-Senshi while the other relies on magical powers. We never really got to see his full potential but from the limited things we've seen he's probably very dangerous with it. He can create objects out of thin air, turn people into stone, breathe fire (in the Anime,) etc.

Of course... Actually Kibito didn't knew about SSJ2 at all but Gohan showed it on his own will... It would make no sense to hold back that much against the strongest enemies he fought or when he tried to pull the sword...

Yeah, true. Gohan going SSjin 2 to show off to some random stranger who didn't even ask for him to go SSjin 2 (only SSjin) and then staying in SSjin against guys like Boo and Dabura is madness. Also, there's this quote:

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito“A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that a human or the like would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Kibito had already witnessed Gohan's relaxed SSjin 2 Ki right in front of him. So if Gohan never went SSjin 2 that statement is just ridiculous. It'd be implying that SSjin Gohan somehow has more incredible power than SSjin 2 Gohan.

Of course, Vegeta is not a lot stronger than Gohan without the Majin Mark... He only said that both himself and Goku are stronger than Gohan and that Dabra is not an unbeatble enemy like he would have been at the time of Cell Games...
Of course Vegeta would defeat Dabra turning SSJ2 and not without fighting at 100%...
Only with the Majin Mark he could be able not just to one-shotting him, but to defeat him with moderate easiness...

Vegeta is weaker than Gohan before his power-up IMO. Goku flat-out says Gohan can defeat anyone at all when he talks about his enraged power, Vegeta says there's no telling what'll happen if Gohan goes into a frenzy again, and Vegeta remarks that Goku's SSjin 2 power, which shocks him, is "even greater" than Gohan's was against Cell. IMO Dabura is nowhere near as pathetic as many fans think he is. There's nothing flat-out calling him fodder in the manga, just that, like you said, he's not unbeatable like he would've been 7 years before. Nobody really considers him fodder.

Yeah, that's it... He could be actually a bit stronger than he was against Freezer, but still in the range of Androids saga... He may be as strong as Vegeta against No. 19 and No. 18 that was suggested to be stronger than previous SSJ Goku...
This seems to be confirmed when Goku and Vegeta fight a Metal Cooler and seem to be equal as SSJ... And a single Metal Cooler is of course a lot stronger than 5th form Cooler from the previous Movie... A Metal Cooler could be easily like No. 18 or something similar...

Yeah considering Goku and Vegeta were even in Movie 6, and #17/#18 are implied to be way above the Super Saiya-jins (mainly because of the statements/feats surrounding Initial Imperfect Cell) #18 seems to be a reasonable level for Metal Coola. I never really took into account the fact that the only reasonable explanation for Goku possibly being on par with 100% Freeza in Movie 5 is a Zenkai, and yet Vegeta in Movie 6 is even with him without any Zenkais.

That has to be definitely like this, more or less... A 5.500.000 base Goku would be a 275.000.000 SSJ Goku that is far above Namek Goku but still in ranges reasonable with the canon placement of that Movie that is like Androids saga or its sourroundings...
This could allow 5th Form Cooler to be even close to 200.000.000, a lot stronger than Freezer 100%, but still a piece of cake for that SSJ Goku...

This makes a lot more sense indeed...

Yeah, definitely makes sense numerically. Also, I just rewatched Goku vs. Final Form Coola. And when Goku flies at him you can clearly hear the distinct sounds that the Kaio-ken makes, which seems to imply he's using the invisible Kaio-ken x10 that he used against Freeza's same 50% form. Considering this Goku came back from Yardrat and then trained hard on top of it... and maybe even got a tiny Zenkai because Toei didn't know they were gone from the story yet, it's very probable that he could have gone from 3,000,000 to 5,500,000.

That's it... Freezer didn't have further transformations but his 4th form is very strong, although he is not used to it and can't keep it for a long time (he never imagined to have a SSJ to fight)... Cooler instead was positive on being stronger than his brother thanks to his further transformation... He would have been surprised by Freezer's 100% but still able to overcome him with 5th form... We can say Cooler underrated his brother not knowing about his 100% but was actually right about being stronger than him anyway, thanks to the 5th form... Without the 5th form, he wouldn't be able to equal his brother and not even their father probably... With the 5th form he can surpass them both...

Yeah I definitely see your point. "50%" could just be their base forms, and they both took different approaches to further their increase their powers just in case. What appears to be Coola's full power in his fourth form is nowhere near as buff as Freeza's fourth form so it's very probable that Freeza's 100% is just some unnatural way of adding additional power that Coola had no idea about.

That makes a lot of sense, since like you said before, it's very unknown when the last time he went 100% was (if ever, lol) and it's extremely unlikely that Coola and Freeza interacted much at all. I mean Coola only even found out that Freeza died months after that event. He'd probably be surprised Freeza could put out power beyond his 50%.

That's definitely it...

Gohan simply stayed the same as he was at Cell Game before getting angered... But from Goku's and Vegeta's point of view he got weaker simply because his *true* power was that used when he was angered and with their warrior mind, it would have been obvious that a fighter would have trained to gain control above that hidden power previously driven by emotion, but Gohan is far from having the mind of a fighter... Actually, if he wouldn't be like that, Goku would never say that with anger Gohan would be unbeatble like he was back then...

Agreed, at the time Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan was still the absolute pinnacle of power. We weren't yet shown how powerful SSjin 2 Vegeta had become from his power-up, and Goku was trying to hide his true SSjin 2 power, so Goku's statement definitely implies Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan > every power that had appeared so far besides it IMO. Nobody actually says Base or SSjin Gohan weren't as strong as they were before, and nobody actually says Gohan got weaker, so there's really nothing going against the Daizenshuu statement that Gohan didn't get weaker.

Besides, if Ki really could atrophy like muscle, Gohan would be ridiculously weak in the Boo Arc. Even an extremely strong person would become a regular weakling if they spent 7 whole years doing absolutely no training. Yet Gohan clearly was not a weakling in the Boo Arc.

Yes, but............... Actually SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta are stated to be on par if not a bit stronger than Gohan was at Cell Games...
This somehow defines that Gohan would be more or less like them but definitely not stronger...

Yeah both of them are implied to be above Fully Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not like by such a large lead that they'd have a noticeable advantage over him if they were to fight. I personally believe it's SSjin 2 Goku = SSjin 2 Vegeta (Babidi's Power-up) > Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan >>> SSjin 2 Chibi Gohan = SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

Well, Muten himself relies on Ki... But Muten is old and his body is already weakened by itself... Gohan instead was a kid and becoming a teen could not weaken him, actually it should strengthen him up with the developing and growing of all his body towards the adulthood...

He relies on physical strength a lot too. All of his training for Goku and co was pretty much just physical training. Plus, he's noticeably buffed up in between the 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukais because of his training (compare shirtless Roshi against Tenshinhan and shirtless Roshi from before he buffed up to fire the Kamehameha.) I don't Muten could ever truly become a weakling though because of how much Ki he has. I mean he trained for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai but otherwise it's implied that he just sat around with Umigame and napped for decades at least. Someone relying on physical strength would be lucky if they could still walk up a flight of stairs, let alone push giant boulders and blow up a Moon after living like that for ages.

I agree that becoming a teen should strengthen him up. It'd be interesting if he actually got at least a bit more powerful than he was before from his maturing body and from sparring with Goten, but just not nearly enough to reach the power he needed rage to tap into in his normal SSjin 2 form.

He simply lacks the training and attitude to manage his max power properly... He never got his body used to it...

Agreed. I view 100% Freeza as kind of like the Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 and 3 that Vegeta and Trunks used. It's extremely strainful but they could still handle it and never got weaker while using it because of their constant hard training. Meanwhile Freeza sits around all day trying to put as little effort into everything as possible, so when his body gets put under strain like that it can't handle it whatsoever.

Yes, I'm convinced of it!!! Maybe Toriyama meant this concept since the beginning... Goku and Vegeta blame him not because he is weaker but because he can't get as strong as he could...

I definitely think he did. There's quite a few mentions of Gohan being stronger when he beat Cell and several mentions of him not tapping into his rage power to go along with them. Plus, nobody actually says he got weaker, just that he was stronger, which means very different things if it's referring to a character whose power drastically increases with their rage.

Do you know if Dragon Ball Kai added sparks to Gohan?

Dragon Ball Kai ended after the Cell Arc so they couldn't have.

[Fox666]

I think you are taking too deep in the Goku vs Coola question. The movie mirror the battle with Freeza, so like Goku fought Freeza without the Kaio-ken, later used the Kaio-ken and finally turned Super Saiyan, the same applies to the fight with Coola.

[CatouttaHell]

Coola flat-out stated the Goku he fought did well enough to have defeated his brother. This is the same Coola who is heavily implied to be able to sense Ki and yet met Piccolo who should be in the multiple millions by then and thought nothing of him. Thus it's extremely unlikely Coola was talking about Freeza's suppressions. When Goku attacks Coola he has no Kaio-ken aura but he's making Kaio-ken noises. Anime-wise Goku used a Kaio-ken x10 against Freeza without any aura, so there is precedent to this same event happening.

Plus, after their brief scuffle, Coola went right into his fifth form. So if Goku wasn't using Kaio-ken then Base Goku is at like 60,000,000 at least, or Coola is ten times weaker than his brother. Neither of which make any sense whatsoever IMO.

[Nazi Cola]

Vegeta is weaker than Gohan before his power-up IMO. Goku flat-out says Gohan can defeat anyone at all when he talks about his enraged power, Vegeta says there's no telling what'll happen if Gohan goes into a frenzy again, and Vegeta remarks that Goku's SSjin 2 power, which shocks him, is "even greater" than Gohan's was against Cell.

I didn't notice any shock on Vegeta's face when Goku used the form. He seemed fairly sure Goku would be that powerful.

[jackjack]

It shouldn't come as a shock when you expected it.

[CatouttaHell]

I didn't notice any shock on Vegeta's face when Goku used the form. He seemed fairly sure Goku would be that powerful.

Vegeta was shocked at Goku's SSjin 2 power against Yakon and got possessed by Babidi on purpose just to match/surpass it. By the time Goku went SSjin 2 for real against him he was already expecting that and thus wasn't surprised.

[jackjack]

He was shocked at Goku always having an edge on him.

[goldsaint13]

Indeed. Dabura being equal to Super Perfect Cell and simply having a huge advantage over him in that he's proficient is magic makes the most sense. Would be interesting to see the two of them fight. One relies on all of the techniques of the Z-Senshi while the other relies on magical powers. We never really got to see his full potential but from the limited things we've seen he's probably very dangerous with it. He can create objects out of thin air, turn people into stone, breathe fire (in the Anime,) etc.

I absolutely agree... It would be an interesting fight...
Majin Buu can be seen as a further combinement because he can learn any of the Z-Fighters techniques and have superior regeneration than Cell and he is also a demon capable of strong magic, more than Dabra...
But after Majin Buu, Cell and Dabra are the strongest foes and are both impressive in martial abilities and magic... Could Dabra's magic compensate all the Z-Fighters techniques that have been able to overcome the most various dangers along the story?

Yeah, true. Gohan going SSjin 2 to show off to some random stranger who didn't even ask for him to go SSjin 2 (only SSjin) and then staying in SSjin against guys like Boo and Dabura is madness. Also, there's this quote:

Kibito had already witnessed Gohan's relaxed SSjin 2 Ki right in front of him. So if Gohan never went SSjin 2 that statement is just ridiculous. It'd be implying that SSjin Gohan somehow has more incredible power than SSjin 2 Gohan.

There's no other possible explanation...

Vegeta is weaker than Gohan before his power-up IMO. Goku flat-out says Gohan can defeat anyone at all when he talks about his enraged power, Vegeta says there's no telling what'll happen if Gohan goes into a frenzy again, and Vegeta remarks that Goku's SSjin 2 power, which shocks him, is "even greater" than Gohan's was against Cell. IMO Dabura is nowhere near as pathetic as many fans think he is. There's nothing flat-out calling him fodder in the manga, just that, like you said, he's not unbeatable like he would've been 7 years before. Nobody really considers him fodder.

Well, Vegeta said that as Gohan was at the moment (without the anger power boost) both him and Goku were stronger than him... So Vegeta, even without the power up, is stronger than not angered Gohan... And Vegeta implied both him and Goku could defeat Dabra (it doesn't mean it would be easy to Vegeta)...
Dabra is strong and Goku remarks it... Vegeta agrees with him, but states that albeit Dabra is actually strong, he's not an unbeatble opponent anymore...

Yeah considering Goku and Vegeta were even in Movie 6, and #17/#18 are implied to be way above the Super Saiya-jins (mainly because of the statements/feats surrounding Initial Imperfect Cell) #18 seems to be a reasonable level for Metal Coola. I never really took into account the fact that the only reasonable explanation for Goku possibly being on par with 100% Freeza in Movie 5 is a Zenkai, and yet Vegeta in Movie 6 is even with him without any Zenkais.

Of course!!! Yes, Vegeta is stated as stronger than the previous Goku in Androids saga, but not by much... That difference could be the same as the one Goku had above the previous himself against Cooler...

There're people that thinks that Goku would have been that strong and even to Vegeta without the heart attack...

Yeah, definitely makes sense numerically. Also, I just rewatched Goku vs. Final Form Coola. And when Goku flies at him you can clearly hear the distinct sounds that the Kaio-ken makes, which seems to imply he's using the invisible Kaio-ken x10 that he used against Freeza's same 50% form. Considering this Goku came back from Yardrat and then trained hard on top of it... and maybe even got a tiny Zenkai because Toei didn't know they were gone from the story yet, it's very probable that he could have gone from 3,000,000 to 5,500,000.

Right, that's what I always thought!!!
This will not deny Cooler to be stronger than Freezer, but will leave the power levels in ranges reasonable with the Androids saga...
Maybe Goku was really that strong in the Androids saga, in the manga, but it's not noticeable because he got sick...

Yeah I definitely see your point. "50%" could just be their base forms, and they both took different approaches to further their increase their powers just in case. What appears to be Coola's full power in his fourth form is nowhere near as buff as Freeza's fourth form so it's very probable that Freeza's 100% is just some unnatural way of adding additional power that Coola had no idea about.

That makes a lot of sense, since like you said before, it's very unknown when the last time he went 100% was (if ever, lol) and it's extremely unlikely that Coola and Freeza interacted much at all. I mean Coola only even found out that Freeza died months after that event. He'd probably be surprised Freeza could put out power beyond his 50%.

Exactly... It would also match with what Freezer said about his father being able to do better against him that Goku but we know he is yet weaker than his 100%...

Cooler uses his 100% without stress, but doesn't reach the levels Freezer reaches with his 100%... Cooler has a 5th form though, so he doesn't need to have a so powerful 4th form like Freezer have...

Agreed, at the time Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan was still the absolute pinnacle of power. We weren't yet shown how powerful SSjin 2 Vegeta had become from his power-up, and Goku was trying to hide his true SSjin 2 power, so Goku's statement definitely implies Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan > every power that had appeared so far besides it IMO. Nobody actually says Base or SSjin Gohan weren't as strong as they were before, and nobody actually says Gohan got weaker, so there's really nothing going against the Daizenshuu statement that Gohan didn't get weaker.

Besides, if Ki really could atrophy like muscle, Gohan would be ridiculously weak in the Boo Arc. Even an extremely strong person would become a regular weakling if they spent 7 whole years doing absolutely no training. Yet Gohan clearly was not a weakling in the Boo Arc.

About Majin Vegeta and Goku, I don't think they held back somehow (beside SSJ3 for Goku of course)... Anyway, Gohan real angered power is around that level...
Gohan is strong as much as he was at Cell Games before getting angered, and he was the strongest Z-Fighter already... So it cannot be defined a weakling in the Buu's saga... He simply wasn't the killing machine he was after being angered against Cell...

Yeah both of them are implied to be above Fully Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not like by such a large lead that they'd have a noticeable advantage over him if they were to fight. I personally believe it's SSjin 2 Goku = SSjin 2 Vegeta (Babidi's Power-up) > Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan >>> SSjin 2 Chibi Gohan = SSjin 2 Teen Gohan.

Of course... Goku and Vegeta are stronger than angered Gohan by an hardly noticeable amount... A very small one indeed... Piccolo is not even sure of this, while Vegeta is... So it has to be small...

He relies on physical strength a lot too. All of his training for Goku and co was pretty much just physical training. Plus, he's noticeably buffed up in between the 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukais because of his training (compare shirtless Roshi against Tenshinhan and shirtless Roshi from before he buffed up to fire the Kamehameha.) I don't Muten could ever truly become a weakling though because of how much Ki he has. I mean he trained for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai but otherwise it's implied that he just sat around with Umigame and napped for decades at least. Someone relying on physical strength would be lucky if they could still walk up a flight of stairs, let alone push giant boulders and blow up a Moon after living like that for ages.

Yes, Muten counts on his body a lot... He was out of shape at the 21st Tenkaichi and that's why he had some problems with Goku... His true power, so to say, is that at 22nd Tenkaichi...
While I think that his buffing abilty comes from Ki...

I agree that becoming a teen should strengthen him up. It'd be interesting if he actually got at least a bit more powerful than he was before from his maturing body and from sparring with Goten, but just not nearly enough to reach the power he needed rage to tap into in his normal SSjin 2 form.

This could be the key...


Maybe Goku believes he would get to be the strongest (then even stronger than his SSJ2) if he would get angry because he is naturally stronger than he was because he is grown up...

He may be slightly above his calm Cell Games self, but far from his angered Cell Games self...
But it's implied that with the same anger he would get stronger than he was with the same anger... Possibly as strong if not stronger than Goku...

Agreed. I view 100% Freeza as kind of like the Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 and 3 that Vegeta and Trunks used. It's extremely strainful but they could still handle it and never got weaker while using it because of their constant hard training. Meanwhile Freeza sits around all day trying to put as little effort into everything as possible, so when his body gets put under strain like that it can't handle it whatsoever.

That's it indeed... Freezer was not used to a so harsh fight... Maybe if he would have trained a lot, with his racial fighting skills, he wouldn't have been defeated so easily by the SSJs...

I definitely think he did. There's quite a few mentions of Gohan being stronger when he beat Cell and several mentions of him not tapping into his rage power to go along with them. Plus, nobody actually says he got weaker, just that he was stronger, which means very different things if it's referring to a character whose power drastically increases with their rage.

Right!!! That's it...

Buu's saga Gohan is slightly stronger than his Cell Games self but a lot weaker than his saelf was while angered... It's implied that recovering that anger he would get as strong as he was, if not stronger...

Dragon Ball Kai ended after the Cell Arc so they couldn't have.

What a shame...

[hleV]

Vegetto. This being is Goku x Vegeta in battle powers, which makes him millions of times stronger than anyone else in the series. Some people set him at around Gogeta's level of power, which for me cannot make sense because Metamor fusion hasn't been stated to have a rivalry boost, which I believe resulted in Goku and Vegeta's Potara fusion being a multiplier of their battle powers, unlike Kibitoshin's.

[Nazi Cola]

Exactly... It would also match with what Freezer said about his father being able to do better against him that Goku but we know he is yet weaker than his 100%...

Freeza never said Cold did better than Goku.

[dbgtFO]

Exactly... It would also match with what Freezer said about his father being able to do better against him that Goku but we know he is yet weaker than his 100%...

Freeza never said Cold did better than Goku.

Yeah.
@goldsaint13
What Freeza actually says is that he and Cold will definetly be able to defeat Goku, if they work together and then he follows it up by saying, that he should probably be do it on his own, now that he has powered up.