Most UNDERrated characters in terms of power?

[goldsaint13]

Here's the corresponding topic...


There are also many underrated characters that are stronger than many people think they are...


I'll try to list some of them:


Master Shen: he is widely underrated because he's never seen fighting and Tenshinhan said Muten is stronger than him... That doesn't mean he is weak, I think he could have easily reached the finals of 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi... Actually, I think he is on par with 21st Tenkaichi Muten... Remember he trained and got stronger by the time of 22nd... Or, maybe, he recovered his shape (he had been caught on surprise by Goku and Crilin and forced to partecipate the Tenkaichi even being out of shape) he didn't have in 21st... Master Shen simply is like Muten out of shape like in 21st...

Akkuman: a Tenkaichi champion that suffers the fact Goku was too strong (already above Muten himself) and is easily defeated but he could give an hard battle to many opponent. He may even be equal to Tao Pai Pai himself that Goku defeated with ease at that point.

Muten: he is underrated to me... Even himself self-underrates his skills. I think he retired against Ten but had the skills to still trying to win even that tournament... He is not as strong as Ten or Goku but has a so wide array of techniques and his experience covers his limits.
I think he can beat Tamberine (remember Goku lost because he was tired and hungry) so Muten would have been able to give a great help even in the Piccolo Daimaho arc. He can turn buffed with 100% and destroy the Moon, something more likely to be done by Z characters than those of the original Dragon Ball.



The whole Saiyan and Freezer saga is full of accurate levels, so it's hard to underrate someone... Beside what Goku said against Raditz: "strength is not everything"...



King Cold: what happened against Trunks makes many people underrate him... He is one step below Freezer, yes, but just close to 100% Freezer to me, so that 50% Freezer said his father could knock down him easily... The typical case of a character appeared too late...

The Kaiohshins and Kibithoshin: I need a separate topic for this... I think that all the Kaiohshins are greatly underrated by many... For various reasons...

Gotenks: this has been debated many times... Gotenks pre-RoSaT is debatable, but post-RoSaT is incredibly strong, but yet underrated by some.

Super Buu: I think someone underrates him and it has been widely debated as well...

Mr. Satan: no, I'm not joking...
Satan is of course nothing compared to Z-Fighters, but he actually won a Tenkaichi and we know that Tenkaichi is full of strange fighters, often very strong ones... Imagine 21st or 22nd Tenkaichi without the Turtle and Crane martial artists... It's still full of strong guys and Satan defeated people of that category... I feel him stronger than the joke he tends to appear compared with Saiyans and those monsters... But when Satan appeared, there were already people as strong or even stronger than Kaiohshin, the God of the whole universe... I think that even a super capable martial artist would appear like a powerless kid...




I'm sure there are more underrated characters...

[Fox666]

King Chapa: supposedly he won a Budokai without being touched.

Assistant Black: despite watching Goku overwhelming the Red Ribbon army and knowing somehow Tao Pai Pai didn't kill him, he still tried to fight Goku with his hands. Even if he was no match for Goku, he still withstood his attacks (which were enough to imobilize Tao Pai Pai).

Muten: he is underrated to me... Even himself self-underrates his skills. I think he retired against Ten but had the skills to still trying to win even that tournament... He is not as strong as Ten or Goku but has a so wide array of techniques and his experience covers his limits.
I think he can beat Tamberine (remember Goku lost because he was tired and hungry) so Muten would have been able to give a great help even in the Piccolo Daimaho arc. He can turn buffed with 100% and destroy the Moon, something more likely to be done by Z characters than those of the original Dragon Ball.

I must agree with you when it comes to the 22nd Budokai. Kame-sennin fought equally with Tenshinhan, if his strength was behind that of Tenshinhan, it was by a very small amount.

Mr. Satan: no, I'm not joking...
Satan is of course nothing compared to Z-Fighters, but he actually won a Tenkaichi and we know that Tenkaichi is full of strange fighters, often very strong ones... Imagine 21st or 22nd Tenkaichi without the Turtle and Crane martial artists... It's still full of strong guys and Satan defeated people of that category...

I don't think Mr. Satan would be a challange for the 22nd Budokai. The announcer with sunglasses mentioned that the level of the tournament has fallen since Goku & co. left.

In fact, Mr. Satan seems to have trouble beating the two who shot Bee. Unlike Goku at the beggining of the series, Mr. Satan can't survive bullets or break rocks with his bare hands. So I would say it is highly unlikely Mr. Satan could do anything against Giran, Namu and others.

[dbgtFO]

Super Buu: I think someone underrates him and it has been widely debated as well...

Indeed!
And let's just leave it at that...

Mr. Satan: no, I'm not joking...
Satan is of course nothing compared to Z-Fighters, but he actually won a Tenkaichi and we know that Tenkaichi is full of strange fighters, often very strong ones... Imagine 21st or 22nd Tenkaichi without the Turtle and Crane martial artists... It's still full of strong guys and Satan defeated people of that category... I feel him stronger than the joke he tends to appear compared with Saiyans and those monsters... But when Satan appeared, there were already people as strong or even stronger than Kaiohshin, the God of the whole universe... I think that even a super capable martial artist would appear like a powerless kid...

There is no guarantee some/all the fighters from the 21st and 22nd Tournaments will fight in future ones. And Mr. Satan appears to be of ordinary human level, not super-human like Nam, Panputto, King Chapa etc.

Also Fox666's explanation above is an accurate description of what transpired. I see it the same way.

[Kaboom]

Piccolo.

'Nuff said.

[CatouttaHell]

Dabura - He's flat-out stated to be stronger than Cell was (most logical form is Super Perfect Cell,) and the Daizenshuu states Gohan was a SSjin 2 when he fought him and was actually losing to him. To me that's enough to put him high enough to stomp Super Perfect Cell. Some people seriously think Dabura isn't even as powerful as Cell Games Goku for some reason.

Piccolo - Mainly due to people taking idiot Kaioshin far too seriously, it's apparently a common opinion nowadays that Piccolo is a good deal below guys like Pui-Pui and #16 in the Boo Arc. Considering all of the crazy increases he's always gotten in the series I honestly see him above Full Power Perfect Cell in the Boo Arc.

Pure Boo/SSjin 3 Goku - While I personally believe both of them are a good deal above Ultimate Gohan, I can accept that many people believe otherwise. However putting both of them a good deal below SSjin Gotenks and even Base Gotenks is absolutely ridiculous. Pure Boo is strongly implied to be rivaling SSjin 3 Gotenks at the very least.

Raditz - He was stated in the Daizenshuu to be at 1,500, and Toriyama himself said he's above a Saibaiman. I really cannot comprehend why him being at least above 1,200 is so hard for people to swallow.

Chibi Son Goku - He tanked bullets, broke bricks by poking them with his finger, etc yet some people think he's a good deal below Videl and even Mr. Satan.

Coola - The Movie 5 hax just gets ignored by a lot of people simply because it's ridiculous from a canon standpoint. It's pretty clear to me at least that Final Form Coola is supposed to be in the billions.

Tsuru-sennin - I don't know if it's because of that silly dub line where he states that Tao Pai Pai is stronger than him, but he always seems to be largely underrated by fans. IMO it's pretty clear that Initial Muten Roshi > Son Goku (3 Years Ago) >>> Tao Pai Pai and yet Tenshinhan didn't think he was above Tsuru-sennin until he buffed up.

Broly - Movie 8 in debatable, but in Movie 10 this guy is an absolute beast. He tanked hits from an Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan without any damage. He'd put up a hell of a fight against SSjin 2 Goku if they were to battle.

Teen Gohan - The Daizenshuu says Gohan's power hasn't changed since he was a boy, and indeed the manga merely says he slacked off and that his SSjin 2 is weaker than when he beat Cell (which the Daizenshuu explicitly states is because he couldn't gain power from anger.) Gohan getting weaker doesn't make any sense whatsoever since he relies on Ki and not muscle. Muscle can atrophy, Ki can't because it's spiritual energy.

[Rocketman]

Raditz - He was stated in the Daizenshuu to be at 1,500, and Toriyama himself said he's above a Saibaiman. I really cannot comprehend why him being at least above 1,200 is so hard for people to swallow.

Because Gohan at 1,307 damaged him so badly that Mr Shattered Ribs was able to hold him in place.

[CatouttaHell]

Because Gohan at 1,307 damaged him so badly that Mr Shattered Ribs was able to hold him in place.

That can be easily explained by him being caught off-guard. Despite the fact that he saw Gohan coming at him in advance, he was so caught off-guard by how unexpected the whole situation is that he was paralysed with fear/confusion and was damaged far more than he normally would have been by such an attack. Also his fear of the current situation constitutes a drop in Yuuki and it's very plausible that he was below 1,500 at the moment Gohan hit him.

[Fox666]

Because Gohan at 1,307 damaged him so badly that Mr Shattered Ribs was able to hold him in place.

Raditz wouldn't be immune to Gohan, even if his power was greater.

Besides someone with 1,307 going all out against 1,500 and causing an injury of that kind seems reasonable to me. And it's not like Gohan used an ordinary attack (Goku defeated Ma Junior in the 23rd with a similar movement).

[goldsaint13]

King Chapa: supposedly he won a Budokai without being touched.

True!!! He's another underrated one...

If he would have partecipated the 21st Tenkaichi he would have arrived to the finals with a bit of luck...

Well, I'm sure even in the 22nd he could have defeated both Pamput and the Wolf Man...

Assistant Black: despite watching Goku overwhelming the Red Ribbon army and knowing somehow Tao Pai Pai didn't kill him, he still tried to fight Goku with his hands. Even if he was no match for Goku, he still withstood his attacks (which were enough to imobilize Tao Pai Pai).

True, I was about to add him too...
Actually, he could have been able to defeat pre-Karin Tower Goku as far as we know...

I must agree with you when it comes to the 22nd Budokai. Kame-sennin fought equally with Tenshinhan, if his strength was behind that of Tenshinhan, it was by a very small amount.

Of course and it's not only a metter of strength... Muten is far more expert than him to not being afraid by a few points of power level difference...

I don't think Mr. Satan would be a challange for the 22nd Budokai. The announcer with sunglasses mentioned that the level of the tournament has fallen since Goku & co. left.

It has fallen just because Goku and the others were absent, not necessarily because the other fighters were not as strong as they used to be...

In fact, Mr. Satan seems to have trouble beating the two who shot Bee.

I don't see him having more trouble than Goku at the Red Ribbon base against two random soldiers... Of course he will never defeat Goku after just the first training with Muten... But he could have been one of the *weak* finalists of the 21st and 22nd Tenkaichi that lost only to super powerful fighters...

Unlike Goku at the beggining of the series, Mr. Satan can't survive bullets or break rocks with his bare hands. So I would say it is highly unlikely Mr. Satan could do anything against Giran, Namu and others.

Goku is special on that side... Even Muten is taken hostage by Red Ribbon soldier even being far stronger than beginning Goku...

Or Master Shen that grabs all Lunch's bullets avoiding her to hit him... And Master Shen is stronger than Giran and Nam (he is one of the most underrated to me)...

Dabura - He's flat-out stated to be stronger than Cell was (most logical form is Super Perfect Cell,) and the Daizenshuu states Gohan was a SSjin 2 when he fought him and was actually losing to him. To me that's enough to put him high enough to stomp Super Perfect Cell. Some people seriously think Dabura isn't even as powerful as Cell Games Goku for some reason.

Of course Darbula is at least as strong as Perfect Cell... And if Gohan was really SSJ2 against him, then he could be really like Super Perfect Cell that was weaker than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan but equal/stronger than Buu's saga weakened SSJ2 Gohan...
Gohan could be SSJ2 actually also against Fat Buu and while pulling the Z-Sword (this would also help Kaioshin revaluation because he was clearly weaker than SSJ2s alone )...

Could you please link a page where I can read the translation about Gohan being SSJ2 against Darbula?

It would help to solve another endless debate...

Piccolo - Mainly due to people taking idiot Kaioshin far too seriously, it's apparently a common opinion nowadays that Piccolo is a good deal below guys like Pui-Pui and #16 in the Boo Arc. Considering all of the crazy increases he's always gotten in the series I honestly see him above Full Power Perfect Cell in the Boo Arc.

Above Perfect Cell i doubt... Kaioshin is stated to be a lot stronger than him... But he can't be considered on par with No.16 at all... He had a year of training in the RoSaT before Cell Games and many further years of training that should place him at least at Ascended Super Vegeta level...

Pure Boo/SSjin 3 Goku - While I personally believe both of them are a good deal above Ultimate Gohan, I can accept that many people believe otherwise.

Goku absolutely cannot because he is weaker than Gotenks compared at the same form and SSJ multipliers are the same for anyone... But Kid Buu is actually hard to judge... Going by how he appears, he should be equal to SSJ3 Goku, but who knows? He is like Fat Buu that likes to play and was stronger than he intially seemed to be...

However putting both of them a good deal below SSjin Gotenks and even Base Gotenks is absolutely ridiculous. Pure Boo is strongly implied to be rivaling SSjin 3 Gotenks at the very least.

Of course this is fool... While Gotenks > Goku in the same form as him, saying that a SSJ1 Gotenks or even base Gotenks are above SSJ3 Goku seems totally absurd to me...
I think SSJ3 Goku is around SSJ2 Gotenks actually...

Raditz - He was stated in the Daizenshuu to be at 1,500, and Toriyama himself said he's above a Saibaiman. I really cannot comprehend why him being at least above 1,200 is so hard for people to swallow.

True... It would have been absurd if one of the Saiyan trio would have been as strong as those seed-foot-soldiers...

Chibi Son Goku - He tanked bullets, broke bricks by poking them with his finger, etc yet some people think he's a good deal below Videl and even Mr. Satan.

That's particular... Not even Muten can tank bullets and he's far above...

Coola - The Movie 5 hax just gets ignored by a lot of people simply because it's ridiculous from a canon standpoint. It's pretty clear to me at least that Final Form Coola is supposed to be in the billions.

Being ridiculous from a canon standpoint risks to send it in the trash as GT and the likes... But people who actually like Movie 5 but abviously see that it's set before the Androids saga, cannot screw it like that...

To think that Goku constantly uses Kaioken x20 and that Cooler didn't know Freezer's 100% power is enough to me to bring it back to canon lines...

Tsuru-sennin - I don't know if it's because of that silly dub line where he states that Tao Pai Pai is stronger than him, but he always seems to be largely underrated by fans. IMO it's pretty clear that Initial Muten Roshi > Son Goku (3 Years Ago) >>> Tao Pai Pai and yet Tenshinhan didn't think he was above Tsuru-sennin until he buffed up.

That's what I said... He is absurdly underrated while he is very strong and as you said probably equal to 21st Tenkaichi Muten or not buffed Muten from 22nd Tenkaichi...

Broly - Movie 8 in debatable, but in Movie 10 this guy is an absolute beast. He tanked hits from an Enraged SSjin 2 Gohan without any damage. He'd put up a hell of a fight against SSjin 2 Goku if they were to battle.

Movie 10 version was stronger than Movie 8 one... Movie 8 Broly is not much different from Perfect Cell while Movie 10 Broly is like Super Perfect Cell to me... I don't think SSJ2 Goku would have suffered much against him... Anyway Broly is more overrated than underrated... He is clearly in SSJ2 tier... But there's people placing him on par with Vegetto that is deep foolishness...

Teen Gohan - The Daizenshuu says Gohan's power hasn't changed since he was a boy, and indeed the manga merely says he slacked off and that his SSjin 2 is weaker than when he beat Cell (which the Daizenshuu explicitly states is because he couldn't gain power from anger.) Gohan getting weaker doesn't make any sense whatsoever since he relies on Ki and not muscle. Muscle can atrophy, Ki can't because it's spiritual energy.

The anger factor is no be taken into account... Actually even at Cell Games Gohan was weaker than he could have been because he was too calm... Buu's saga Gohan is not angered and so weaker than he could...
But he is actually stated as weaker than before... Mostly because he lacks anger, but also a bit because he didn't train...

[CatouttaHell]

Of course Darbula is at least as strong as Perfect Cell... And if Gohan was really SSJ2 against him, then he could be really like Super Perfect Cell that was weaker than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan but equal/stronger than Buu's saga weakened SSJ2 Gohan...
Gohan could be SSJ2 actually also against Fat Buu and while pulling the Z-Sword (this would also help Kaioshin revaluation because he was clearly weaker than SSJ2s alone )...

Could you please link a page where I can read the translation about Gohan being SSJ2 against Darbula?

It would help to solve another endless debate...

Yeah I believe Gohan was a SSjin 2 in every SSjin instance after his training with Goten to be honest. It just makes the most sense that way. His hairstyle is blatantly SSjin 2 each time, and Toriyama's Movie Gohan designs show very clearly the hair differences between SSjin and SSjin 2. The first has two bangs while the former one bang. Gohan against Dabura, the Z-Sword, etc has only one bang.

Here's the character bio from the Daizenshuu that states Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabura.

Being ridiculous from a canon standpoint risks to send it in the trash as GT and the likes... But people who actually like Movie 5 but abviously see that it's set before the Androids saga, cannot screw it like that...

To think that Goku constantly uses Kaioken x20 and that Cooler didn't know Freezer's 100% power is enough to me to bring it back to canon lines...

How do you know Coola didn't know his own brother's 100% power? Coola's fourth form, that was tied with Base Goku, is implied to be on par with Freeza's fourth form. It's very, very rare for a movie to have characters with powers straight out of the canon timeline. Movie 5, Movie 6, Movie 12, and Movie 13 all have some absolutely ridiculously haxed main characters going by movie statements and feats. Movie 3 has Battle Powers for Piccolo, Son Goku, and Son Gohan and they don't correspond to their canon versions one bit.

To each their own, but Coola not knowing how strong his own brother is and his fourth form being like 1/40th of his brother's fourth form in terms of power despite him being older and far more powerful seems like a far bigger stretch than Movie 5 Goku just being haxed to hell, but that's just my opinion.

The anger factor is no be taken into account... Actually even at Cell Games Gohan was weaker than he could have been because he was too calm... Buu's saga Gohan is not angered and so weaker than he could...
But he is actually stated as weaker than before... Mostly because he lacks anger, but also a bit because he didn't train...

The Daizenshuu says he has the same power he did as a boy but his SSjin 2 isn't as great as when he defeated Cell because he didn't train and because he couldn't gain power from anger. That just means that he couldn't go back to the same level of power he had against Cell because he was enraged then and got an enraged boost on top of his SSjin 2, and he couldn't raise his normal SSjin 2 power to his enraged level because he didn't bother to train. Nobody remarks on Gohan getting weaker in the manga regarding his SSjin and SSjin 2. They merely say he slacked off and that he had more power when he defeated Cell, they don't actually say he got weaker, just that he was stronger back then.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”

These two quotes more or less show that if Gohan got enraged again he'd have the exact same power he did 7 years ago when he defeated Cell and that that same power is still top tier.

[In Brightest Day]

Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Yamcha.

And boom goes the dynamite.

[Kirby456]

What comes to mind for me is. Goku,Broly,Dabura,Pikkon,East Kaioshin,Piccolo,Goten and Kid Trunks,Mecha Frieza/Frieza,King Cold,King Kai,Master Roshi,Korin,Raditz,Yajirobe,Kid Gohan Android saga,Spike the Devilman,Kid Goku.

^ I lold at boom goes the dynamite.

[dbgtFO]

Dabura - He's flat-out stated to be stronger than Cell was (most logical form is Super Perfect Cell,) and the Daizenshuu states Gohan was a SSjin 2 when he fought him and was actually losing to him. To me that's enough to put him high enough to stomp Super Perfect Cell. Some people seriously think Dabura isn't even as powerful as Cell Games Goku for some reason.

Just to clear something up. Daizenshuu 7 actually only says that Dabra's Battle Power equals Cell, not that he's stronger(which probably is more based on his magic skills).
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... _d-f#dabra

[Nazi Cola]

Teen Gohan - The Daizenshuu says Gohan's power hasn't changed since he was a boy, and indeed the manga merely says he slacked off and that his SSjin 2 is weaker than when he beat Cell (which the Daizenshuu explicitly states is because he couldn't gain power from anger.) Gohan getting weaker doesn't make any sense whatsoever since he relies on Ki and not muscle. Muscle can atrophy, Ki can't because it's spiritual energy.

One thing I'm wondering since you're of this mindset. Why would Vegeta mock Gohan about his power as a Super Saiyan 2 twice -- during the tournament and against Dabra? Isn't that kind of redundant?

[dbgtFO]

Teen Gohan - The Daizenshuu says Gohan's power hasn't changed since he was a boy, and indeed the manga merely says he slacked off and that his SSjin 2 is weaker than when he beat Cell (which the Daizenshuu explicitly states is because he couldn't gain power from anger.) Gohan getting weaker doesn't make any sense whatsoever since he relies on Ki and not muscle. Muscle can atrophy, Ki can't because it's spiritual energy.

One thing I'm wondering since you're of this mindset. Why would Vegeta mock Gohan about his power as a Super Saiyan 2 twice -- during the tournament and against Dabra? Isn't that kind of redundant?

There's the whole deal with Relaxed Ki << Fighting Ki.
When Vegeta comments on Gohan's power the second time, he just says, he was stronger as a kid, as opposed to at the tournament, where he said, he was far, far stronger, when he killed Cell.
I'm guessing, COH is thinking of that.

[goldsaint13]

Yeah I believe Gohan was a SSjin 2 in every SSjin instance after his training with Goten to be honest. It just makes the most sense that way. His hairstyle is blatantly SSjin 2 each time, and Toriyama's Movie Gohan designs show very clearly the hair differences between SSjin and SSjin 2. The first has two bangs while the former one bang. Gohan against Dabura, the Z-Sword, etc has only one bang.

That's it... Despite being upset Tory didn't draw the sparkles around him, it makes more sense like this...
The SSJ2 hairs are spikier and has one bang... SSJ1 Gohan has two bangs and hairs with less spikes...
He only lacks the sparks...

Here's the character bio from the Daizenshuu that states Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabura.

Then there's no doubt anymore!!! Great!!!

It makes more sense... Dabra is like Super Perfect Cell, in the SSJ2-tier... That's why Kaioshin is scared about him since he is below SSJ2 but in SSJ1-tier...

Also, Gohan could pull the Z-Sword thanks to his SSJ2 power...

How do you know Coola didn't know his own brother's 100% power?

Because Freezer himself didn't since he never used it before...

Coola's fourth form, that was tied with Base Goku, is implied to be on par with Freeza's fourth form.

Yes, the 50% form... He is as thin as that Freezer is...

Goku can keep Kaioken x20 constantly and so stay tied with him like he did with Freezer...

It's very, very rare for a movie to have characters with powers straight out of the canon timeline. Movie 5, Movie 6, Movie 12, and Movie 13 all have some absolutely ridiculously haxed main characters going by movie statements and feats. Movie 3 has Battle Powers for Piccolo, Son Goku, and Son Gohan and they don't correspond to their canon versions one bit.

That's possible, but Movies are possible ways the story could have taken... Cooler's movie BP could even be totally different from canon, but the story before the Movie is that of the anime, so Goku SSJ was 150.000.000 right before the Movie and so he couldn't be too far from sone hundred of millions... He is still an early SSJ, his power is in the ranges of the Androids saga, although it may be a lot different from the actual Androids saga levels...

To each their own, but Coola not knowing how strong his own brother is and his fourth form being like 1/40th of his brother's fourth form in terms of power despite him being older and far more powerful seems like a far bigger stretch than Movie 5 Goku just being haxed to hell, but that's just my opinion.

Not 1/40 but only 1/2... Around 50% Freezer... The form Freezer used against his father too, never reaching the 100%... Cooler may be unaware of 100%...
Goku of course was fighting with Kaioken x20 active... Or even Kaioken x10 and his power may be actually doubled... Maybe he is 6.000.000 in base form and 300.000.000 in SSJ form, but still in the ranges of Androids saga levels...

The Daizenshuu says he has the same power he did as a boy but his SSjin 2 isn't as great as when he defeated Cell because he didn't train and because he couldn't gain power from anger. That just means that he couldn't go back to the same level of power he had against Cell because he was enraged then and got an enraged boost on top of his SSjin 2, and he couldn't raise his normal SSjin 2 power to his enraged level because he didn't bother to train. Nobody remarks on Gohan getting weaker in the manga regarding his SSjin and SSjin 2. They merely say he slacked off and that he had more power when he defeated Cell, they don't actually say he got weaker, just that he was stronger back then.

Actually yes... But, thinking about it... Maybe Buu's saga Gohan is just as strong as Cell Games Gohan before the anger explosion... When he was actually stronger than Goku at the time but not enough to be a threat for Cell...
Gohan has a big boost by anger and he had it even against Cell... This anger is not only related to his SSJ2 but to any of his forms...
Maybe they said he was weaker than against Cell because he was again at the level he had against Cell before getting angered... A level that was already the best at the time, but now it's out of date... While Goku insted trained to reach a bit more power than even angered Gohan had...
So Gohan didn't weakened... He simply stayed the same and didn't train to being able to use that anger power boost at will...
This could be the cause for his SSJ2 to rarely show sparkles and also Goku said that recovering that anger would make Gohan the strongest again (well, he would be almost equal to Goku, but still a bit below)...

These two quotes more or less show that if Gohan got enraged again he'd have the exact same power he did 7 years ago when he defeated Cell and that that same power is still top tier.

True, or at least, he would be under Goku's level by a very small extent...

Without anger, he barely fought Darba that is at this point similar to Super Perfect Cell, an enemy that angered SSJ2 Gohan could dominate, but couldn't without anger...

What comes to mind for me is. Goku,Broly,Dabura,Paikuhan,East Kaioshin,Piccolo,Goten and Kid Trunks,Mecha Freeza/Freeza,King Cold,King Kai,Master Roshi,Karin,Raditz,Yajirobe,Kid Gohan Android saga,Spike the Devilman,Kid Goku.

^ I lold at boom goes the dynamite.

They are many...

I actually think there are more underrated characters than overrated...

Just to clear something up. Daizenshuu 7 actually only says that Dabra's Battle Power equals Cell, not that he's stronger(which probably is more based on his magic skills).
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... _d-f#dabra

He equals Cell, yes... But being Gohan a SSJ2, he was forcibly to be tied with Super Perfect Cell...

[Kaboom]

Here's the character bio from the Daizenshuu that states Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabura.

Then there's no doubt anymore!!! Great!!!

And here is the one which suggests he never used SSj2 beyond Volume 37, while his fight with Dabra is in Volume 38. So the Daizenshuu are at odds with each other on that little topic. Then there's this, which lays out the distinct visual differences between the two forms as well.

I'm afraid it's not so doubt-free after all.

My work here is done.

[dbgtFO]

Here's the character bio from the Daizenshuu that states Gohan was a SSjin 2 against Dabura.

Then there's no doubt anymore!!! Great!!!

So the Daizenshuu are at odds with each other on that little topic.

The information brought in Daizenshuu 7 was their final word on the matter.
It's pretty obvious his aura is that of a regular Super Saiyan in the manga though, so I guess it's a possible retcon, considering that same bio said Dabra equals Cell and Gohan fought evenly with him, making it unlikely it was a mistake.

[Kaboom]

Or even better, Goku's later plain and simple straight-up demonstration and labeling of each form and what they look like takes precedence over everything else, guidebooks be damned.

But whatever, I was just making sure the other elements at least got mentioned for goldsaint's sake. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic!

[CatouttaHell]

Just to clear something up. Daizenshuu 7 actually only says that Dabra's Battle Power equals Cell, not that he's stronger(which probably is more based on his magic skills).
http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... _d-f#dabra

Well I was mainly referring to when Goku said Dabura was as strong as Cell, then later said he's way stronger than he thought. Though you're right in that he did mention his magic when he made that second comment.

One thing I'm wondering since you're of this mindset. Why would Vegeta mock Gohan about his power as a Super Saiyan 2 twice -- during the tournament and against Dabra? Isn't that kind of redundant?

Yeah what dbgtFO said about relaxed and fighting Ki. Also Gohan looked even more pathetic against Dabura because by then it was evident he not only couldn't tap into his enraged power, but he also had slacked off and lost his fighting "skills." Which is also more reason for Vegeta to mock Gohan again.

That's it... Despite being upset Tory didn't draw the sparkles around him, it makes more sense like this...
The SSJ2 hairs are spikier and has one bang... SSJ1 Gohan has two bangs and hairs with less spikes...
He only lacks the sparks...

I agree, that makes the most sense. I find it ridiculous that Gohan would go SSjin 2 just to show off to some random stranger, but would stay in SSjin when his life is in danger against the Devil and a genocidal wizard that the gods fear. Here are Toriyama's movie Gohan designs, BTW, if you're curious.

Then there's no doubt anymore!!! Great!!!

It makes more sense... Dabra is like Super Perfect Cell, in the SSJ2-tier... That's why Kaioshin is scared about him since he is below SSJ2 but in SSJ1-tier...

Also, Gohan could pull the Z-Sword thanks to his SSJ2 power...

Even Vegeta wasn't exactly implied to be capable of one-shotting a guy like Dabura. He merely says they can manage something and that he's not unbeatable. Now I'm not saying Vegeta wouldn't definitely defeat him with SSjin 2... but that's just not something I'd expect to hear about a guy who has trouble with SSjin Gohan lol.

Because Freezer himself didn't since he never used it before...

Good point on that.

Yes, the 50% form... He is as thin as that Freezer is...

Goku can keep Kaioken x20 constantly and so stay tied with him like he did with Freezer...

That's an interesting thought actually. I remember discussing this with you before and Goku using an unseen Kaio-ken x10 or Kaio-ken x20 against Coola DEFINITELY makes things more sane than Base Goku just being at 150,000,000. Goku used the Kaio-ken in the Anime without any signs of it before, Kaio-sama himself confirmed it, so there is precedent to this.

That's possible, but Movies are possible ways the story could have taken... Cooler's movie BP could even be totally different from canon, but the story before the Movie is that of the anime, so Goku SSJ was 150.000.000 right before the Movie and so he couldn't be too far from sone hundred of millions... He is still an early SSJ, his power is in the ranges of the Androids saga, although it may be a lot different from the actual Androids saga levels...

Yeah I'm starting to think you're right about this. Something like:

"Base" Coola - 60,000,000
Kaio-ken x10 Goku - 55,000,000
Base Goku - 5,500,000

Makes a lot more sense, canon-wise than Base Goku being on par with his SSjin the last time it appeared. All of the movies tend to mirror the canon storyline they're ripping off from, and Base Coola vs. Goku might be mirroring Goku constantly using the Kaio-ken x10 "invisibly" against Base Freeza.

Not 1/40 but only 1/2... Around 50% Freezer... The form Freezer used against his father too, never reaching the 100%... Cooler may be unaware of 100%...
Goku of course was fighting with Kaioken x20 active... Or even Kaioken x10 and his power may be actually doubled... Maybe he is 6.000.000 in base form and 300.000.000 in SSJ form, but still in the ranges of Androids saga levels...

Coola being unaware of 100% is possible. Maybe "50%" and "70%" is just their base forms and they both found ways of increasing their power. Freeza doing his equivalent of SSjin Grade 2/3 (what Vegeta and Trunks came up with in the RoSaT) that bulked him up but strained him horribly, and Coola doing his equivalent of SSjin 2, so to say. Coola definitely didn't buff up or otherwise stop being skinny until he went into his fifth form, unlike Freeza.

Actually yes... But, thinking about it... Maybe Buu's saga Gohan is just as strong as Cell Games Gohan before the anger explosion... When he was actually stronger than Goku at the time but not enough to be a threat for Cell...
Gohan has a big boost by anger and he had it even against Cell... This anger is not only related to his SSJ2 but to any of his forms...
Maybe they said he was weaker than against Cell because he was again at the level he had against Cell before getting angered... A level that was already the best at the time, but now it's out of date... While Goku insted trained to reach a bit more power than even angered Gohan had...
So Gohan didn't weakened... He simply stayed the same and didn't train to being able to use that anger power boost at will...
This could be the cause for his SSJ2 to rarely show sparkles and also Goku said that recovering that anger would make Gohan the strongest again (well, he would be almost equal to Goku, but still a bit below)...

True, or at least, he would be under Goku's level by a very small extent...

Without anger, he barely fought Darba that is at this point similar to Super Perfect Cell, an enemy that angered SSJ2 Gohan could dominate, but couldn't without anger...

I agree, Gohan had an anger boost against Perfect Cell the whole time and used the anger boost to kill Super Perfect Cell. So it makes sense that Teen Gohan is always being compared to the Gohan that killed Cell when they say he was stronger then. They never outright say he got weaker though, just that he was stronger. With Gohan and his rage boosts, him being stronger before doesn't mean much. Gohan was at 2,800 when he snapped after Piccolo died, and was then at 1,500 on Namek. Obviously that means he was stronger on Earth but it doesn't mean he got weaker by any stretch of the imagination.

Goku even flat-out states for him to get angry like he did against Cell, and that he can defeat anybody at all if he does that. That shows that Enraged SSjin 2 Teen Gohan > everyone who has appeared so far. I don't really see how Gohan could have gotten weaker to be honest. If Roshi sits back and does nothing all day he'll get weaker because his muscles will atrophy, but Gohan relies on spiritual energy, which can't atrophy from him sitting around and doing nothing. Freeza never trains or otherwise puts forth any effort into anything whatsoever unless absolutely necessary but does he get weaker? Of course not.

IMO it's very heavily implied and makes the most sense that Gohan never got weaker and simply couldn't gain power from rage. The Daizenshuu flat-out confirms this, and the manga, when you look at it from that perspective, makes complete sense too. Absolutely nobody ever says Gohan got WEAKER, and Goku himself says if he gets angry like he did then he can defeat anybody.

And here is the one which suggests he never used SSj2 beyond Volume 37, while his fight with Dabra is in Volume 38. So the Daizenshuu are at odds with each other on that little topic. Then there's this, which lays out the distinct visual differences between the two forms as well.

I'm afraid it's not so doubt-free after all.

My work here is done.

I think dbgtFO hit the nail right on the head when he said Gohan didn't have sparks because he was weak. SSjin 2's and even SSjin 3 Goku have lost sparks to show that they're weakened before in the manga. And if that page proves that Gohan never went SSjin 2 beyond Volume 37, then it also proves that Goku stopped being an adult after Volume 22. Oh, and I wanted to say this somewhere in this thread so I guess I'll just put it here. Manga-wise it can be argued, but Toei clearly tried very hard to get the point of Gohan being a SSjin 2 across in the Anime.

Blatantly SSjin 2 hair, very pale skin, etc.
A comparison of SSjin 2 Goku and SSjin 2 Gohan

Somehow I'm inclined to think this wasn't just a silly mistake. Not to mention the sparks he has when he pulls the Z-Sword out...


EDIT: Damn double-post. The forum bug struck when I tried to delete it and now I can't even do that.