Kaioshin/South Kaioshin/Dai Kaioshin/Kibitoshin REVALUATION

[Fox666]

That's a good point. Neither Goten and Trunks used the fusion neither Gohan transformed in Ultimate Warrior. So I suppose that wouldn't have much effect on the Genki Dama.

Edit: Goku said that Vegeta still didn't recovered his energy as soon he was revived, so I guess neither of them could transform/fuse?

[Metrite]

Because he was weak and wanted more power?

Well, I wouldn't really qualify that as a "need" then.

And why didn't Kaioshin bring up that there used to be a kaioshin far more powerful than any of them to add to his attempt to persuade them to not let Buu be revived? Saying that there was a kaioshin strong enough to kill Cell/Dabra in a single hit would certainly sound more serious than comparing them all to just Freeza.

The genki dama collects genki, not ki. It's in the name.

Actually, it was stated multiple times that the Genki Dama does gather ki (in addition to other kinds of energy). Back when Goku passed a small one to Kuririn, kuririn said the ki in it was unbelievable. When Gohan and the other contributed against Buu, Goku did say it was ki from Gohan and the others.

They could not have flown around talking to people if they had given all their ki (like how they struggled to fly in the freeza saga when they gave their chi to Piccolo.)

And before you say the flying around was filler, it's only by using anime filler you can possibly make a 'case' for Kid Buu > Gohan.

Also, at least in Vis, Goku comments that "this much from Gohan and the others" or something to that effect, not "this exact bit is everything Gohan has and look how it's nothing compared to Buu LOL"

Otherwise the kids would have fused before contributing to the bomb, or at least went super-saiyan.

Is this a case of "I'll use the anime for this, the manga for this, and something else for this"? In the manga (which many people before that have thought Buu was stronger than Gohan have in fact gone by) Kaioshin was too weak to teleport after contributing to the Genki Dama. And going ssj would have just wasted energy since it is a transformation that enables them to power up with more of their ki, there is no reason for them to power up with it when they are only donating it. Though fusion could have made a small difference, it either hadn't been a full hour, or they just didn't bother thinking about it since it wouldn't have changed too much with Gohan contributing along with the expectation that everybody on Earth would listen.

[jackjack]

Kaioshin only mentions Freeza because that's guy he knows the Saiyans are familiar with. He doesn't even know anything about Cell, and the Saiyans obviously have no idea who Dabura is.

Then why did Goku look up at it and say, "This ki is from Gohan"?

Actually, the author says genki is one of the three components (the other two being shouki and yuuki) that make up ki. Good try, though.

[Nazi Cola]

South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin > East Kaioshin IMO. I think South Kaioshin is stronger than Full Power Perfect Cell. He couldn't pull the Z-Sword out, but I believe Gohan was a SSjin 2 when he did that, so South Kaioshin can be pretty damn strong and still do that. East Kaioshin I personally feel is weaker than SSjin Gohan and Piccolo (just barely, in regards to Gohan) for various reasons. The power of the South Kaioshin is a big problem though if you believe Evil Boo > Pure Boo (I personally don't) since Pure Boo (South Kaioshin Absorbed) is implied to be a good deal above Evil Boo.

I thought you followed pretty much everything from the guidebooks, which would mean you'd have Piccolo below East Kaioshin.

[goldsaint13]

This seems like another attempt to try and bend clear implications of a part of the story because it doesn't agree with a certain part one's chosen belief system. lol I think it seems clear that all the context and events from Kaioshin's amazement of the saiya-jins to the Z sword all shows that the point was that the saiya-jins had already surpassed even the strongest of gods by the start of the Buu saga. You have to really go out of your way to make up reasons for the idea that some of the kaioshins were as strong as a ssj3.

SSJ2s are stronger than East Kaioshin by the start of the story and that's why East Kaioshin is amazen of the Saiyans power... He is surely in the SSJ1 tier and as long as he knew of SSJ1 alone, he wasn't that much positive that Saiyans could have done much better than him...
It's SSJ2 that made him hopeful to have allies so much stronger to be able to do things he didn't believe possible...
But it's all about the present time... We cannot assume nothing about how could havew been strong the Kaioshins from other ages... They were so far dead/absorbed, so he couldn't rely on dead Kaioshins... In the present age the most promising people in terms of strength were Goku, Vegeta and Gohan... But not on their own, since SSJ2 power is not enough to defeat Majin Buu but they could have held hidden strength to be unlocked by the Z-Sword making the most promizing of them (Gohan) so strong to actually being able to easily defeat any of the 3 Majin Buus without any of the Z-Fighters themselves absorbed...
South Kaioshin could have been SSJ3 tier but may not have had an hidden power to unlock... This would have made the Z-Sword pointless since the beginning...
I only say that I doubt Buu absorbed South and Dai without a reason... Not really a strategy or anything, but something more self-conservative, since he is a less more than a beast as mind...

I guess it is always fun to see people make up crazy things to try to bend a part the story to match their beliefs.

It's not this case...

I already know Super Buu is 99% stronger than Kid Buu and I know it by the fact that SSJ1 Gotenks >>> SSJ1 Goku... The rest goes by itself...

I remember a awesome argument somebody once made about how the Genki Dama works. Since Gohan's energy alone wasn't way more than enough to destroy Buu, which would suggest Gohan isn't ungodly superior him after all (blasphemy!), it meant the Genki Dama doesn't actually gather any ki. Then why did Goku look up at it and say, "This ki is from Gohan"? Um, he just didn't know what he was talking about. The truth is that the Genki Dama gathers a special substance called "it". And no matter how strong a person becomes, his it never increases meaning Gohan's it is no greater than a normal person's it. Then why did a third of the Genki Dama come from Gohan? Um... well... you see... Ah! When a person becomes stronger, the amount of room that his it takes up increases, but the power of his it never increases regardless of how big it gets. A brilliant explanation that causes everything to make perfect sense.

What the hell is that?


The things are far more simple... They weren't Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan but just Trunks, Goten and base Gohan...

Having said that, on topic, yeah the gods could not pull the z-sword, that much is clear.

If they were ss3 tier they could have beaten kid buu, at least collectivly, and would probably be too skilled to be absorbed.

How do you know they weren't actually beating him joining forces and that's why he absorbed them?

As for "too skilled to be asorbed"... Say it to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan...


Gotenks and Gohan were even stronger than Super Buu, while being of SSJ3 tier wouldn't have meant for South and Dai to be stronger than Kid Buu... Their power could have been even like that of Fat Buu, that is low SSJ3 level, since he can beat the best SSJ2s with ease...

Maybe Fat Buu IS just Daikaioshin...

They were obviously weaker but still strong enough that buu absorbed them for the lullz, or just superfluous bonus strength for fun.

Who knows?

I only think he wouldn't have absorbed them without some need...

That's a good point. Neither Goten and Trunks used the fusion neither Gohan transformed in Ultimate Warrior. So I suppose that wouldn't have much effect on the Genki Dama.

Of course Gohan wasn't Ultimate... It'c clear from his teeny look, opposite to the Ultimate look that is far more adult-like...

Edit: Goku said that Vegeta still didn't recovered his energy as soon he was revived, so I guess neither of them could transform/fuse?

Probably...

Well, I wouldn't really qualify that as a "need" then.

And why didn't Kaioshin bring up that there used to be a kaioshin far more powerful than any of them to add to his attempt to persuade them to not let Buu be revived?

It was in the past... It wouldn't have made sense to talk about a not anymore alive Kaioshin to scary someone...

Saying that there was a kaioshin strong enough to kill Cell/Dabra in a single hit would certainly sound more serious than comparing them all to just Freeza.

Freezer is the only one famous for both Saiyans and Kaioshins... He said it when Vegeta said that Majin Buu didn't have done much more destruction than the Saiyan race (implying he could have been a piece of cake for their actual power)... So Kaioshin answered that the Kaioshin are so strong to annhilate Freezer in a single hit and Freezer is the one who could annhilate the whole Saiyan race with equal ease... So he basically said that Vegeta has to be on guard about Buu, that is not like a mere Saiyan, not even like the much more powerful Freezer...

As for Cell and Dabra... Goku and co. didn't know Dabra that was from another dimension, while probably Kaioshin didn't know Cell that was a being from an alternate future... Goku said about Dabra: "There was a monster known as Cell 7 years ago, I think Dabra is as strong as he was"...
It wouldn't have made any sense to describe who was Cell if not for Kaioshin, because both Vegeta and Gohan knew him perfectly...

I thought you followed pretty much everything from the guidebooks, which would mean you'd have Piccolo below East Kaioshin.

At least is one of the few things we know... Saying that Kaioshin is far stronger than Buu's arc Piccolo means say that he is SSJ1 tier...

[CatouttaHell]

I thought you followed pretty much everything from the guidebooks, which would mean you'd have Piccolo below East Kaioshin.

I follow the guidebooks. I just believe Piccolo's Ki was affected when he was sensing Kaioshin due to Shouki and Yuuki loss. Piccolo was likely experiencing a drop in Shouki and thus power due to how humble he became at the sight of god of gods. That's entirely God, not Piccolo right there and the Daizenshuu even says "God's blood is troubled" when it talks about that scene. Being that Shouki = true character and was stated by Toriyama to be a component of Ki it's likely his power had dropped.

We've already seen how the real Piccolo treats gods before (Kaio-sama.) In regards to Yuuki (courage,) he was definitely terrified from the great implications that the god of gods had shown up on his planet. Every word that Kaioshin said had him shaking in his shoes. So I do believe Piccolo at that moment was a good deal below Kaioshin, and was comparing his power at the moment to Kaioshin. Stuff like this isn't very noticeable. Ginyu took over Goku's body and due to a loss of Shouki and likely other things and his power fell from 90,000 to below 23,000. Yet Ginyu didn't even have a clue and was convinced that he was at a whopping 180,000. Just the same it's unlikely Piccolo realised his power had dropped and when comparing Kaioshin's to his saw a massive gap in their powers.

[Metrite]

South Kaioshin could have been SSJ3 tier but may not have had an hidden power to unlock... This would have made the Z-Sword pointless since the beginning...

Nothing was ever said about the Z sword having anything to do with hidden power. It was just said that the one to pull it would supposedly gain incredible power. They also apparently thought it was some sort of super special weapon itself with how they thought it was unbreakable and could do anything to Buu who can be cut up all day long without anything happening.

Gohan wasn't Ultimate

Gohan is always ultimate Gohan. That's not a transformation, it's plain old normal form Gohan with all of his power brought forth (including the strength he'd access via anger and ssj), meaning he just no longer needs to transform or get angry to use his full strength.

Freezer is the only one famous for both Saiyans and Kaioshins... He said it when Vegeta said that Majin Buu didn't have done much more destruction than the Saiyan race (implying he could have been a piece of cake for their actual power)... So Kaioshin answered that the Kaioshin are so strong to annhilate Freezer in a single hit and Freezer is the one who could annhilate the whole Saiyan race with equal ease... So he basically said that Vegeta has to be on guard about Buu, that is not like a mere Saiyan, not even like the much more powerful Freezer...

Kaioshin responded from reading Vegeta's mind, which could have even been how he knew about Freeza, but he seemed to be trying to make it clear to him that Buu is no pushover and so could have made that point better by making a better comparison for the ones Buu took down than Freeza seeing how Freeza himself is a pushover by that point. Kaioshin should have just told Vegeta that one of them was several times stronger than even he was by that point in time and that would've really got his attention. lol

[goldsaint13]

I follow the guidebooks. I just believe Piccolo's Ki was affected when he was sensing Kaioshin due to Shouki and Yuuki loss.

Daizenshuu didn't say "Kaioshin was way stronger than Piccolo in the specific moment"... It says that Kaioshin is way stronger than Piccolo generally...

Kaioshin is clearly SSJ1 level... Until he knew about SSJ2, he had no hope Saiyans could do better than him to stop Babidi... Only after he was aware there was something above SSJ2 he said: "If I would have known about your power I would have used another strategy!"

There's something else I noticed...

At the Tenkaichi Kaioshin said: "Mr. Goku, I would like to fight you... I don't think I can defeat you, but It would like to know how strong you are!"

Goku is even above Cell Games enraged Gohan (Kaioshin is aware only of his SSJ1 though), so just the fact Kaioshin think he can fight well against him, although without having chances to win, shows he is SSJ1 Full Power tier...

Nothing was ever said about the Z sword having anything to do with hidden power. It was just said that the one to pull it would supposedly gain incredible power. They also apparently thought it was some sort of super special weapon itself with how they thought it was unbreakable and could do anything to Buu who can be cut up all day long without anything happening.

Kibito said that the one wielding the Z-Sword would gain an immense power that surely would make him able to defeat Majin Buu... Then they actually said that it was about cutting him... They say both things... Anyway, the Kaioshins have been there since a lot time before Majin Buu's appearance... The idea the Z-Sword could have cut Majin Buu is relatively recent... Before Buu ever existed, they probably believed only that the sword would have unlocked a great power...

Gohan wasn't Ultimate

Gohan is always ultimate Gohan. That's not a transformation, it's plain old normal form Gohan with all of his power brought forth (including the strength he'd access via anger and ssj), meaning he just no longer needs to transform or get angry to use his full strength.[/quote]

I'm not convinced of it, absolutely... Ok about the anger and everything... But Gohan asked: "How could I transform into the Ultimate fighter!"

And the answere: "The same way you do for Super Saiyan, but that is not the best way!"

And Super Saiyan is not a definitive transformation, so I think Ultimate isn't either...

Kaioshin responded from reading Vegeta's mind, which could have even been how he knew about Freeza, but he seemed to be trying to make it clear to him that Buu is no pushover and so could have made that point better by making a better comparison for the ones Buu took down than Freeza seeing how Freeza himself is a pushover by that point. Kaioshin should have just told Vegeta that one of them was several times stronger than even he was by that point in time and that would've really got his attention. lol

Kaioshin red his mind about what Vegeta had in mind about the Saiyan race, but Kaioshin knew all that happened with Freezer and the Vegeta Planet...
It's like Vegeta would have said: "Destroying planets is what the Saiyan people did and they are weakling know, so could be Majin Buu!"
And Kaioshin's answere: "Freezer annhilated the Saiyan race and yet we Kaioshin could annihalate him with a blow, but Majin Buu is so strong that he annhilated most of us easily!"
I think it's related to Vegeta's idea about how easy it was for even Saiyans to destroy planets...

[Titan]

I think South Kaioshin needs to be a lot stronger than Dabura.How much?I don't know.

[Fox666]

At the Tenkaichi Kaioshin said: "Mr. Goku, I would like to fight you... I don't think I can defeat you, but It would like to know how strong you are!"

Kaioshin wasn't talking seriously. He said that because in Goku eyes, Kaioshin wasn't a god, but an unknow human or alien who knew a little of his feats. Thus it would be expected that Goku would believe in Kaioshin words.

Kaioshin had no idea that Cell existed, for him Goku was just a guy slight stronger than Freeza. It was only after a while that he realized that Goku & co. as Super Saiyans were actually stronger than him.

I'm not convinced of it, absolutely... Ok about the anger and everything... But Gohan asked: "How could I transform into the Ultimate fighter!"

And the answere: "The same way you do for Super Saiyan, but that is not the best way!"

And Super Saiyan is not a definitive transformation, so I think Ultimate isn't either..

Yes, the Ultimate Warrior seems to be a transformation.

Besides, didn't Piccolo actually mentions Gohan appearance changed a bit? His hair is also a little different.

I also remember seeing it being threated as a transformation of sort in other medias (i.e. Final Bout videogame opening).

[Chou Gohan]

The genki dama collects genki, not ki. It's in the name.

Actually, it was stated multiple times that the Genki Dama does gather ki (in addition to other kinds of energy). Back when Goku passed a small one to Kuririn, kuririn said the ki in it was unbelievable. When Gohan and the other contributed against Buu, Goku did say it was ki from Gohan and the others.

Technically, you're both right since genki is a category of ki. If it gathers genki, it gathers ki. If you don't care about stuff like character traits and mean to talk specifically about the juice that the characters run on that determines how strong they are then thinking in terms of just the genki works. And, believe it or not, I really did once see a guy arguing that the Genki Dama doesn't gather any sort of ki but does in fact gather something else entirely which he chose to call "it". lol I can't help but wonder if he really started to believe it himself or just wanted to claim he did in order to make it seem like he had a good reason to keep arguing his view had to be correct. That seems to be how those debates mostly work. A person with a preconceived opinion that he will never accept as not being absolute among everybody finds a fact that disagrees with him and so he says the common perception a person would come to from it must be wrong and that his new idea about how it should be percieved has to be right.

[jackjack]

And, believe it or not, I really did once see a guy arguing that the Genki Dama doesn't gather any sort of ki but does in fact gather something else entirely which he chose to call "it".

Still though, you can't really blame the guy for not agreeing with your argument. He just didn't give you a logical explanation. You may think it's a "fact" that disagrees with his "preconceived opinion", but it's nothing more than your own interpretation.

[Chou Gohan]

Still though, you can't really blame the guy for not agreeing with your argument. He just didn't give you a logical explanation. You may think it's a fact that disagrees with him, but it's nothing more than your own interpretation.

Actually, I wasn't the one debating him. I have never really bother to get very involved with those debates since I know that many people involved in them aren't really trying to be too open minded but are rather often nitpicking that their view has to be right and anybody that says otherwise must be wrong. Though I do sometimes enjoy watching them as as I find it quite humorous how some people do go to such crazy lengths to defend their beliefs like making up the "it" argument. And when you say something is nothing more than a person's own interpretation, that is basically true about every "fact" (whether the initial view most come to or the twisted up one to match something else) that people bring up.

[jackjack]

And when you say something is nothing more than a person's own interpretation, that is basically true about every "fact" (whether the initial view most come to or the twisted up one to match something else) that people bring up.

Not really. If A says B has a higher ki level, then A < B = fact, no matter how hard you try to explain that away. A concrete statement like that is much more convincing than saying C < D because a Genki Dama filled with C's power isn't enough to kill D, who can regenerate.

[goldsaint13]

I think South Kaioshin needs to be a lot stronger than Dabura.How much?I don't know.

Of course!!! I dare to say he's SSJ3 tier... He could be less, but he's very strong anyway...

When I say SSJ3 tier I simply mean he should have an power of more than 10.000 Kili to use Babidi's measure...

Kaioshin wasn't talking seriously. He said that because in Goku eyes, Kaioshin wasn't a god, but an unknow human or alien who knew a little of his feats. Thus it would be expected that Goku would believe in Kaioshin words.

Uhm... Kaioshin had a vague idea of Goku SSJ1 power, he knew about the two Babidi's minions there to steal enough energy to revive Buu... Kaioshin has been surprised by SSJ2 and he said he was not sure to be able to stop that power, but they were agree with Kibito to ask Gohan to turn SSJ and then to stop him as that...
They knew about Goku's power more or less but not about their SSJ2...

Kaioshin had no idea that Cell existed, for him Goku was just a guy slight stronger than Freeza. It was only after a while that he realized that Goku & co. as Super Saiyans were actually stronger than him.

He was prepared to have to deal with Full Power SSJ not just the early the killed Freezer...
Kaioshin said that probably he wouldn't have been able to defeat Goku... If he wanted to lure him and in case he may have believed Goku SSJ had the Androids saga power, he could have said: "Mr. Goku, I would like to fight you, but I think you can't win against me, I think to be more powerful than you!"
This would have excited Goku to the peak...

Kaioshin has a power far above Piccolo, that is stronger than the SSJ Goku who defeated Freezer... He should have known about SSJ Full Power level to think Goku is stronger than him and could be a precious help against Babidi...

Then he has been totally astonished by SSJ2 he didn't expect, but he knew about SSJ1 FP...

Yes, the Ultimate Warrior seems to be a transformation.

Besides, didn't Piccolo actually mentions Gohan appearance changed a bit? His hair is also a little different.

I also remember seeing it being threated as a transformation of sort in other medias (i.e. Final Bout videogame opening).

That's right...

It's treted as that... Even in Tapion Movie, Gohan actually transforms... And even in Janemba Movie to pulverize Freezer...

When giving the energy for the Genkidama he was clearly not transformed into Ultimate...

[Metrite]

Yes, the Ultimate Warrior seems to be a transformation.

Besides, didn't Piccolo actually mentions Gohan appearance changed a bit? His hair is also a little different.

I also remember seeing it being threated as a transformation of sort in other medias (i.e. Final Bout videogame opening).

Just because a character powers up doesn't mean they transformed. Rou Kaioshin even emphasized that it wasn't a transformation when in response to Goku's statement that Gohan had reached such a level without changing he said, "Hmph, it's not as though he has to transform". Piccolo just said that his ki was different, the look on his face had changed, and that his meekness had disappeared, which was all a result of him now using his full power without needing to get angry or transform.

[Fox666]

Perhaps a "transformation" is too extreme for what Gohan does, but it doesn't seems to be a simply power-up, it's more like a Kaio-ken or some special power-up.

[Metrite]

Back on Namek, Kuririn and Gohan weren't provided with a special technique like kaioken or any special tranformation to make themselves stronger, that power-up was simply them having some of the dormant power they possessed at that time drawn out. Rou Kaioshin likewise didn't teach Gohan any crazy techniques like kaioken, he just drew out every bit of power Gohan then had. So Gohan was able to use every bit of his power without any need to get angry, use special techniques, or transform.

[goldsaint13]

Just because a character powers up doesn't mean they transformed. Rou Kaioshin even emphasized that it wasn't a transformation when in response to Goku's statement that Gohan had reached such a level without changing he said, "Hmph, it's not as though he has to transform". Piccolo just said that his ki was different, the look on his face had changed, and that his meekness had disappeared, which was all a result of him now using his full power without needing to get angry or transform.

Because the "transformation" is not visual... The looks doesn't change but it draws a huge power... But I say it's a transformation because that power can be kept or drawn out at will, like a transformation, but unlike it, it doesn't fatigue the body at all...

[Metrite]

In that case, anybody that has ever suppressed their strength and then later on used their full power has "transformed". Even Kuririn "transforms" on a regular basis.