Other Super Saiyan 2's?

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:33 am

Actually, I suspected he was TMS way back when he first joined. ^^; Simply going off his name and intro thread. But I didn't have enough evidence to call him up on it.

SpaceKappa · Post by **SpaceKappa** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:36 am

Same here, but I figured it wasn't my place to say anything. All's well that ends well, I suppose.

Back on topic, wasn't it stated somewhere that Vegeta didn't reach Super Saiyajin 2 until he got his Majin powerup? I thought that was part of the drama; the powerup gave him more power than he could have gotten on his own.

lost in thought · Post by **lost in thought** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:51 am

Rocketman wrote:Vegeta still turned SSj2 (though I personally think he did long before going Majin). You were claiming he never did.

According to Mike's transformation guide [which is probably the most reliable resource available, short of examining the original manga] it isn't specificly said Vegeta reaches SSJ2, at any time. And as for Majin, I don't believe it was stated he was SSJ2 there either, short of having a massive power increase, yadda, yadda. Lets look at the facts here for a moment, the only Saiyan's we know of that has a documented SSJ2 transformation are Goku, and Gohan.
As well, in DragonBall what 'you personally think' means nothing in the grand scheme of things, and like I said, writing on the wall. It's pretty clear.

[Note: If someone can show me some cold, hard, unrefutable fact that proves me wrong, I am fully willing to accept that I made a mistake.]

Gamingdevil wrote:I knew it was TMS the second I saw this topic, but you all beat my to it

Little slow on the up aren't we? Heh.

B-kun wrote:Actually, I suspected he was TMS way back when he first joined. ^^; Simply going off his name and intro thread. But I didn't have enough evidence to call him up on it.

Pretty obvious, wasn't it? Of course this topic was a dead give away... I mean seriously, how did he ever begin to imagine he could start a topic that resembled his previous arguement, and not get his cover blown? Hahaha.

Mizugi wrote:Same here, but I figured it wasn't my place to say anything. All's well that ends well, I suppose.

See, thats why I didn't say anything, too. I had a strong sense that that was him though... it was like my Ironic-Bullshit detector went off, and I saw through his crummy disguise.
Of course I thought it would be interesting to call him on it, since he had the nerve to make a fucking topic that automatically blew his cover.

Mizugi wrote:Back on topic, wasn't it stated somewhere that Vegeta didn't reach Super Saiyajin 2 until he got his Majin powerup? I thought that was part of the drama; the powerup gave him more power than he could have gotten on his own.

I don't even believe it was stated then either, and that Majin was simply a power-up to make him capable of going toe-to-toe with Son', of course I could be entirely mislead... but I am of the mind that the writing on the wall is of his not making it to said levels, and jumping from SSJ-to-SSJ4, during the course of GT.

Of course, if Mike would do a tie breaker, I am sure he and his handy resources could give us a little definitive proof on the matter, and keep what little sanity this topic has left...

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:02 am

The Transformation Guide says, "There are hints that Vegeta may have been able to transform into SSJ2 before the "Majin" charm, but there is absolutely nothing explicity said in either the anime or the manga."

And I disagree. Vegeta talked smack about Dabura during the whole fight with Gohan. He was talking about how weak Gohan was, and saying "Kakarrot" or himself could defeat the guy.
I don't see SSj Vegeta being able to take one someone who was on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:11 am

B-kun wrote:Actually, I suspected he was TMS way back when he first joined. ^^; Simply going off his name and intro thread. But I didn't have enough evidence to call him up on it.

I thought so as well, but then he started to show a decent level of intelligence, and Mike didn't call him on it, so I figured I was wrong. Oh well. Gut instincts are usually right.

That said, return to topic I shall. I agree with CMG.... (Hell just froze over). Up until I saw the episodes I thought it was going Majin that made Vegeta 'break through' to level 2. However, his statements about being able to beat Dabura (someone on par with Perfect Cell, at the least) lead me to think otherwise. I think all the Majin power did was boost his power to a level equal that of Goku.

Obviously the same levels of SSJ can have vastly different powers. SSJ Goku from the Freeza Saga wouldn't be able to lay a hand on SSJ Goku from the Kid Buu Saga. So I just figure it's that kind of thing. Vegeta could tell Goku's power was greater than his so he needed that extra push to catch up.

lost in thought · Post by **lost in thought** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:12 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:there is absolutely nothing explicity said in either the anime or the manga.

Comes down to that line, right there. People can believe Vegeta, Future Trunks, Trunks, and even Goten went SSJ2 at one point or another, but it seems pretty obvious that if Mike writes that there is nothing that explicity states the validity of your claim, it's inherintly a theory based on your personal beliefs.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:I don't see SSj Vegeta being able to take one someone who was on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Of course he probably wouldn't have been on par with Gohan, but then he didn't actually fight anyone other than Pui Pui until he had been taken in by Babidi. Despite his tall claims to Dabra, I doubt he could have stood a chance against him, much less defeated him.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:24 am

lost in thought wrote:
Rocketman wrote:Vegeta still turned SSj2 (though I personally think he did long before going Majin). You were claiming he never did.
According to Mike's transformation guide [which is probably the most reliable resource available, short of examining the original manga] it isn't specificly said Vegeta reaches SSJ2, at any time. And as for Majin, I don't believe it was stated he was SSJ2 there either, short of having a massive power increase, yadda, yadda. Lets look at the facts here for a moment, the only Saiyan's we know of that has a documented SSJ2 transformation are Goku, and Gohan.
As well, in DragonBall what 'you personally think' means nothing in the grand scheme of things, and like I said, writing on the wall. It's pretty clear.

[Note: If someone can show me some cold, hard, unrefutable fact that proves me wrong, I am fully willing to accept that I made a mistake.]

Well, if he didn't go SSj2, then Majin Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is equal in power to Goku's Super Saiyan 2 form, which is odd, to say the least.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:24 am

Lost, Mike really isn't the godly source of knowledge you're making him out to be. ^^; Even obsessive fans get things wrong. Hell, we've pointed out mistakes he's made several times and he immediately corrected them.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:33 am

lost in thought wrote:According to Mike's transformation guide [which is probably the most reliable resource available, short of examining the original manga]

....

[Note: If someone can show me some cold, hard, unrefutable fact that proves me wrong, I am fully willing to accept that I made a mistake.]

VegettoEX, forgive me for posting these, but the manga chapters in question haven't been translated yet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/ ... egokuf.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/ ... gokuf2.jpg

You can clearly see Majin Vegeta is surrounded by the same electricity that SSj2 Goku is surrounded by.

Also Gohan says at one point (might be dub-only) "They're both fighting at a level beyond a Super Saiyan!"

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon May 30, 2005 4:54 am

lost in thought wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:there is absolutely nothing explicity said in either the anime or the manga.
Comes down to that line, right there. People can believe Vegeta, Future Trunks, Trunks, and even Goten went SSJ2 at one point or another, but it seems pretty obvious that if Mike writes that there is nothing that explicity states the validity of your claim, it's inherintly a theory based on your personal beliefs.

Read it over. He says there's nothing said in either the anime or manga that says Vegeta went SSj2 BEFORE he became Majin Vegeta.
AFTER he became Majin Vegeta, Gohan said they were both fighting on the ascended level.

Xyex wrote:That said, return to topic I shall. I agree with CMG.... (Hell just froze over).

*Twitches*

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon May 30, 2005 5:33 am

ALL this is my own opinion:

Okay, the only reason Vegeta talked smack about being able to defeat Dabura was so Dabura and/or Babidi would see potential in Vegeta and boost his power, by which Vegeta was bluffing about being able to beat Dabura, isn't the first time he's bluffed (Form 2 Frieza and Android 20 for example). Vegeta first reached SSJ2 when Babidi put him under the Majin upgrade.

As for SSJ2 not being in GT, it's clearly Gohan's signature SSJ level in GT, as it is for Vegeta, though Vegeta does use SSJ1 during the battle with Bebi-Gohan before going SSJ2 to over-power their ki-battle. Every time afterwards, Vegeta and Gohan skip right to SSJ2.

And Goku has gone SSJ2 in GT, though all instances are VERY brief. The first time is during his battle with Hyper Mega Rilldo, when Rilldo launches a metallic globe attack and Goku shorty transforms to SSJ2 to deflect it, but reverts back to SSJ1. Also, he did it while transforming to SSJ3 both times during his fight with Bebi-Vegeta, after the tenkaichi budokai where he and Vegeta were supposed to have one more SSJ2 Vs. SSJ2 battle, and during the very start of his battle with Super 17 (but only to be reverted to SSJ1 at the start of the following episode).

As for Goten and the Trunks's, Goten never went SSJ2, but he did go Ultra SSJ when under Bebi's possesion, and Trunks is weaker than Goten in GT so he's pretty much an average SSJ1 (which means still weaker than Android 18 and Piccolo). Future Trunks on the other hand, DID go SSJ2 during the battle with Bojack, however it was very briefly. After SSJ Trunks launches multi-ki attacks at Bojack and a barrier, he flies to him suddenly transformed at SSJ2, but reverts to SSJ1 when Bujin telekeneticly binds him.

Aurek · Post by **Aurek** » Mon May 30, 2005 6:36 am

And I disagree. Vegeta talked smack about Dabura during the whole fight with Gohan. He was talking about how weak Gohan was, and saying "Kakarrot" or himself could defeat the guy.
I don't see SSj Vegeta being able to take one someone who was on par with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Unless it was different in the manga thats incorrect. In the anime Gohan was not SSJ2 when fighting Dabura, as he lacked the trademark lightning. Infact I dont think we ever see Gohan with the lightning after he defeats cell.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon May 30, 2005 6:50 am

We see the electricity when he powers up at the tournament.
I think the lack of electricity is due to him never keeping an aura up in the fight.
I mean, he even has SSj2 hair during the fight.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon May 30, 2005 8:38 am

Gohan was most definitly at SSJ2 during his fight with Dabura, just not utilizing his full power of it, usually it's noticibale because his SSJ1 is more whitish and has two small bangs, whilst his SSJ2 is more goldish, has one long bang, and is of course slightly longer. Geez, does every SSJ2 require lightning? Just look for the differences in power and hair style.

Fuujin · Post by **Fuujin** » Mon May 30, 2005 9:09 am

Actually, Toriyama made sure that the change is apparent in the manga, recognizing a SSJ2 is very easy (and Majin Vegeta was one, I think). It's the anime where it's more ambiguous.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon May 30, 2005 9:46 am

The Transformation Guide wrote:there is absolutely nothing explicity said in either the anime or the manga.

I stand behind this.

Notice how the word "explicitly" is used in our description. Vegeta does not, under any circumstances, say, "Oh, by the way, just to clarify things, I was absolutely able to transform into SSJ2 before I received that charm from the little runt over there."

I've stated time and time again that I feel the evidence on both sides of the matter is fantastic, and I couldn't agree more with either argument. The problem is... there's nothing explicit stated to *confirm it 100%* one way or the other. All we can go on is what is literally said and confirmed; we're not a fan-speculation site, and we don't want to give any extra ideas that aren't necessarily true.

There's no 100%-concrete evidence that literally tells us Vegeta was able to reach SSJ2 before the charm. It's very likely, and may very well have happened... but this is just a fictional story where the author didn't fill-in those holes, so it's literally impossible to say for sure.

Super DC · Post by **Super DC** » Mon May 30, 2005 11:39 am

I'll post on topic and say that there are no SSj2s in GT including Vegeta and Gohan. There was no electricity and was not a fan favorite which is who TOEI was trying to please the whole the time.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon May 30, 2005 12:21 pm

Super DC wrote:TOEI

For the love of Kami, everyone please stop writing this company's name in all-caps everywhere.

lost in thought · Post by **lost in thought** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:10 pm

The Transformation Guide wrote:there is absolutely nothing explicity said in either the anime or the manga.
I stand behind this.

Notice how the word "explicitly" is used in our description. Vegeta does not, under any circumstances, say, "Oh, by the way, just to clarify things, I was absolutely able to transform into SSJ2 before I received that charm from the little runt over there."

I've stated time and time again that I feel the evidence on both sides of the matter is fantastic, and I couldn't agree more with either argument. The problem is... there's nothing explicit stated to *confirm it 100%* one way or the other. All we can go on is what is literally said and confirmed; we're not a fan-speculation site, and we don't want to give any extra ideas that aren't necessarily true.

There's no 100%-concrete evidence that literally tells us Vegeta was able to reach SSJ2 before the charm. It's very likely, and may very well have happened... but this is just a fictional story where the author didn't fill-in those holes, so it's literally impossible to say for sure.

Thank you for being the tie breaker Mike.

B-kun wrote:Lost, Mike really isn't the godly source of knowledge you're making him out to be. ^^; Even obsessive fans get things wrong. Hell, we've pointed out mistakes he's made several times and he immediately corrected them.

Since I don't have any of the original printed media, or daizenshuu, and without the ability to read Japanese, his guide is the closest thing to historical accuracy I have. Is information in it wrong? I don't know, but from my point of view it seems pretty accurate.

*PINHEAD* · Post by ***PINHEAD*** » Mon May 30, 2005 4:25 pm

I knew it was probably him the moment I saw his intro topic, and thus, I hinted "[you] seem kind of familiar. Seems to be lots of Trunks fans lately..." Harharhar, I am the clever.

But anywho, I don't think the lightning bolts necessarily indicate a Saiyan's level. It's just an artistic way of expressing great, wild power surging from the Super Saiyan. It just so happens that Super Saiyan 2 (and 3, at that) are extremely powerful and wild. So...lightning.