How I think the Cell saga should have ended

[Dr. Machismo]

It has happened before and after this part of the story. To me it seems dumb for them not to want to come back given some their motivations and character arcs of the Cell portion. But that is beside the point. How does everyone dieing instead of just Goku dieing make for a stronger ending?

Well, it's darker and deeper. There'd be more of a mood, too, because Gohan would become serious about protecting the Earth. And this isn't just about the ending. It'd make way for a stronger arc with Gohan growing to be similar to how he was in the History of Trunks.

Trunks and his whole timeline were a plot device; Created for a reason, to paint a dark, possible picture as the future for our heroes. If the main timeline ends up in almost the exact same predicament as the future timeline, except less destruction and Gohan not dead, then there really isn't a reason for Trunks to even come back into the past. The main timeline could have ended up in pretty much the same situation if Gohan has just landed a lucky blow in the the History of Trunks

In short, Trunks exists for the sake of keeping the main timeline happy, like the rest of the arcs. If it doesn't end up that way, it defeats his out of universe purpose.

Trunks still would have a reason to go back to the past, because he has to find a way to stop the villains in his timeline. The whole objective of "changing the past to change the future" was thrown out the window was thrown out early in the saga.

[jjgp1112]

A depressing and dark ending doesn't automatically equate to a good ending. As someone already mentioned, having some dark apocalyptic ending and follow-up storyline complete throws away one of Trunks' main purposes, which is to at least ensure that one timeline doesn't have to deal with the tragedy and despair he dealt with. This is a good what-if scenario at best.

I know right? I'm fucking stupid. But I really don't see how this defeats his purpose.

Trunks and his whole timeline were a plot device; Created for a reason, to paint a dark, possible picture as the future for our heroes. If the main timeline ends up in almost the exact same predicament as the future timeline, except less destruction and Gohan not dead, then there really isn't a reason for Trunks to even come back into the past. The main timeline could have ended up in pretty much the same situation if Gohan has just landed a lucky blow in the the History of Trunks

In short, Trunks exists for the sake of keeping the main timeline happy, like the rest of the arcs. If it doesn't end up that way, it defeats his out of universe purpose.

Are you saying the Cell saga sucks because it didn't have enough comedy? Honestly, the comedy started to become less prominent when King Piccolo showed up.

That isn't the only reason, but it is the main one to me. The comedy doesn't have to be the main focus, but there does need to be a balance, which even the Daimao, Junior, Saiyan and Freeza Arcs have. I mean, even with Daimao turning up the darkness factor by killing main characters and our Deus Ex Machina, we still get our talking Kuririn skeleton.

Krillin getting up in arms over being told to drink milk, Goku's gluttonous display of eating after coming out of the hyperbolic time chamber, and everything involving Mr. Satan doesn't count as comedy?

[VegettoEX]

A depressing and dark ending doesn't automatically equate to a good ending. As someone already mentioned, having some dark apocalyptic ending and follow-up storyline complete throws away one of Trunks' main purposes, which is to at least ensure that one timeline doesn't have to deal with the tragedy and despair he dealt with. This is a good what-if scenario at best.

I agree with this a lot. Like you said, having (mostly / pretty much / definitely / whatever) everyone except for Gohan killed off doesn't really change things up a whole lot from Trunks' future timeline, with the exception being the actual person who's still alive and which villain they fought against / are still fighting against...

... which in turn completely negates Trunks coming in the first place to save everyone. Sure, the "threat" would be removed, but at what cost? The lives of everyone else? Everyone else, all of which they could just bring back to life with consecutive/rotating wishes via Namek's Dragon Balls? That seems like a lot of pointless death for no real reason or payoff (unlike the Saiyan arc, where we were all operating under the knowledge that they could never be brought back).

Toriyama isn't an author that can go to those dark places and stay there. It just isn't him. If there were an ending like that out of left field, I'd wager we'd all be talking about how "un"-Dragon Ball it felt, and how surprising and possibly even disconcerting it was that Mr. Poop Joke went there and stuck with it.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Trunks still would have a reason to go back to the past, because he has to find a way to stop the villains in his timeline. The whole objective of "changing the past to change the future" was thrown out the window was thrown out early in the saga.

Again, no shit. lol Yes, Trunks would have an in-universe reason to return to the past, to find a way to fix his own timeline. But out of universe, his traveling to the past wouldn't really serve a purpose if the timelines were both going to be dark. Hell, future Trunks wouldn't even need to exist. Toriyama could have just played a tweaked History of Trunks as the main/only timeline.

Koga'd, and I think Mike explained it better than I did. xD

Krillin getting up in arms over being told to drink milk, Goku's gluttonous display of eating after coming out of the hyperbolic time chamber, and everything involving Mr. Satan doesn't count as comedy?

Yes, it does. I never said there wasn't any comedy in the Cell Arc, but unlike the others, there just isn't enough to counteract the more serious tone this part of the series gives us.

[Gonstead]

The History of Trunks is already dark enough as it is for a Dragon Ball product.

We don't need anything more than that.

[VegettoEX]

There's no need for your continued "no shit lol" responses.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

There's no need for your continued "no shit lol" responses.

Sorry, but it wasn't even serious. Did feel required though when my posts on that point had been from an out of universe perspective and all I get are in-universe responses covering obvious statements. Anyway, duly noted, and will avoid it in the future.

[Bussani]

My first thought when I read the opening post was, "Well, that's a What-If story I wouldn't mind reading, but I wouldn't want it in place of the arc we got." Things like this, though...

Well, it's darker and deeper.

How is it "deeper" or "stronger" as you put it? Making something dark doesn't make it deep or strong. I don't want to say anything that could offend, so I'll just say that I don't think it has either of those qualities.

Actually, a reason why Trunks came to the past was so he could learn how to deal with his timeline's Androids. The fate of the main timeline has no effect on his.

You're both right. Trunks explains that he came back in time to study the androids and maybe get Goku to come back with him and help him beat his, but also that his mother thought there should be one timeline out there that doesn't suck. But anyway, TheDevilsCorpse and others are looking at things from a writing perspective--Trunks' purpose for being in the story with the back-story he was given.

It'd just be stupid and weak for the story if they were revived with the Namekian Dragonballs.

Feels a little forced to me. In the real story they were eager to go to any length to bring Goku back to life until he stopped them, so would they really just choose to stay dead so easily?

Also, why wouldn't Gohan just wish for his arm to be back?

[Nex Carnifex]

.....That is seriously dark. I don't think even Deadman Wonderland would make an ending so dark, and that's a shonen.

Dragon Ball is also a shonen.

[Dr. Machismo]

Fuck, man. So many disagreements. I don't where to start lol.

People, just because the majority of the Z Force died doesn't mean that Trunks failed in his objective. In my idea, the Androids and Cell would have still been destroyed, meaning that the world was saved. Since there wouldn't be any Androids destroying the Earth, nobody would be going through the tragedy he dealt with at all. And Gohan would still be around to protect the Earth. I'm pretty sure Trunks would be comfortable with how things turned out, seeing as the threat was stopped and Earth was safe with Gohan. A timeline where things were a lot better would have still been made. I never said that Gohan would still be fighting Cell several years later, you know.

And in the official story, Goku still dies. It's really the same thing, except more people died with them. Earth would still be safe in Gohan's hands (well, hand, seeing as one of his arms would be gone. And at least, it'd be safe until the next time Earth is attacked lol)

And people, I'm not saying that Dragonball should end with the my proposed ending for the Cell saga. We'd still have another saga, which could brighten up the mood quite a bit.

Toriyama isn't an author that can go to those dark places and stay there. It just isn't him. If there were an ending like that out of left field, I'd wager we'd all be talking about how "un"-Dragon Ball it felt, and how surprising and possibly even disconcerting it was that Mr. Poop Joke went there and stuck with it.

Who says Dragonball would stay in the dark place given by my idea? Again, the next saga could brighten up my mood. And I think aliens striking the Earth and Goku being revealed to be one of them was "un" Dragonball in 1989.

Feels a little forced to me. In the real story they were eager to go to any length to bring Goku back to life until he stopped them, so would they really just choose to stay dead so easily?

It's really not hard to see Piccolo and Vegeta wishing to stay dead. As for Krillin, Yamcha and Tien, we see how they begin to lose relevance throughout the saga (they even admit it, too). i'll put it like this:

They're all dead after seeing how relatively weak they are. Three of their friends wish to stay dead. Earth is already safe with Gohan. It's not hard to see them going with the flow.

And I'm saying that it'd be stupid for the Namekian Dragonballs to be used at that very moment. It'd just be random and since they're already dead, keeping them dead sets up a stronger mood.

Also, why wouldn't Gohan just wish for his arm to be back?

He doesn't wish him arm back so he can remind himself of his failure to save his friends. He'd get it back in the next saga, when his friends tell him to stop being down on himself in the Otherworld.

[DBZAOTA482]

Plus Piccolo's dead so no Earth Dragonballs and only Goku can find New Namek but he died a second time, and of natural causes.

[Dr. Machismo]

Plus Piccolo's dead so no Earth Dragonballs and only Goku can find New Namek but he died a second time, and of natural causes.

Dende became God in the Android saga, so Piccolo's fate has no effect on the functionality of the Dragonballs.

[Saiga]

Honestly this whole thing can be just summed up as "Darker and Edgier" which doesn't just automatically improve things.

[DBZAOTA482]

Plus Piccolo's dead so no Earth Dragonballs and only Goku can find New Namek but he died a second time, and of natural causes.

Dende became God in the Android saga, so Piccolo's fate has no effect on the functionality of the Dragonballs.

Goku's heart virus affected him earlier in the alternate timeline so he couldn't contact Dende.

[Dr. Machismo]

Plus Piccolo's dead so no Earth Dragonballs and only Goku can find New Namek but he died a second time, and of natural causes.

Dende became God in the Android saga, so Piccolo's fate has no effect on the functionality of the Dragonballs.

Goku's heart virus affected him earlier in the alternate timeline so he couldn't contact Dende.

But this has little to do with that timeline. In the main timeline, Goku is cured by the medicine.

[Kingdom Heartless]

For me, being overly dark sort of goes against what Dragon Ball was. Sure, it had plenty of dark moments, but for the most part, it avoided the standard anime moroseness that gets grating at times.

[Dr. Machismo]

Yes, Dragonball had dark moments, and this is one of them. And again, the next saga could still brighten up the mood.

[Gaffer Tape]

This was obviously put forth with a lot of thought, and it was quite fascinating to read. And I am interested to see what this hypothetical final arc would be. And as someone who always loves an idea that would make an underutilized character useful, I do want to see this Chaozu turning evil thing. Really. I mean that. Although admittedly it seems like a better idea in a vacuum, rather than necessarily attached to the ideas you've preceded it with. Almost sounds like HARDCORE overkill that way. Yamucha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo die. Then Goku dies. Then Trunks and Vegeta die. Gohan is the only hero left. And then Chaozu turns evil too. Oh, and Gohan also dies. And Lex Luthor becomes President for life.

But, yeah, as interested as I am to hear where this will go, I do agree that a lot of it does seem dark for the sake of being dark, and that even if it wasn't, dark and gritty are two adjectives that have never gone with Dragon Ball's tone. Yeah, you're right in that Dragon Ball's tone shifts from silly comedy to serious action. But it's never extraordinarily dark or depressing. Even when a tyrant is murdering children, heroes are being killed, and planets are exploding, the underlying emotions are never really seriously or stringently dealt with. And no matter how serious or actiony things get, there's always the underlying current and expectation of, well, the shonen spirit: At the end of the day, good will triumph over evil, and everything will turn out alright because we have the power of friendship or the will to succeed, etc, etc. Basically, it's a children's series, not The Dark Knight Rises.

That's not to say I'm entirely against the mindset behind the idea. To a certain degree, I don't think most of us are. Many of us have complained about how death is cheap in Dragon Ball. The emotional consequences can be shallow and often bounce off due to things like that. The characters aren't often given a chance to show any emotional growth. And, sure, I feel those kinds of elements could have been improved on. But I think your solution is far and away too much in the opposite direction. But like I said, I'm still interested in where it goes from here.

[jjgp1112]

I don't understand why you keep using "Well we will end up with a happy moment with Goku and Gohan at the end" to justify having Trunks' mission for trying to rescue the timeline not have any payoff. There's no point in a "dark and grizzly" ending if it doesn't actually resolve anything. No story is complete without a resolution unless there's a sequel that does resolve it. I'd wager that Gohan being all by himself with no father or friends and basically being in the same position as Future Trunks after he takes care of the Androids in his timeline is the farthest thing from what Trunks wanted, as well as for the younger version of himself to grow up without a father.

[Gaffer Tape]

And, yes, there's that too. There are certain expectations in storytelling, based on genre, style, etc. If something is set up, it has to be delivered upon. If the entire setup for a story arc is that a man comes back to the past so that he can stop the gloomy future he lives in in which everyone important has died, the audience expects that that goal will be accomplished. Just like a story arc where the goal is to find new Dragon Balls to wish their dead friends back to life... ends with them finding new Dragon Balls to wish their dead friends back to life. From the moment that Cell announces that he has to absorb #17 and #18 to become complete, you KNOW that Cell will not be defeated before he obtains that goal. There is just no possible way. It's the Law of Conservation of Detail at work: there's no point in establishing it if it's not going to be followed through upon.

But then again, this point is moot since Dr. Machismo has stated that he believes that the rest of the earth, minus the handful of main characters that die, having a happy future is payoff enough. But, again, that's why I want to see what his Boo arc replacement would be before I really pass judgement, just to see if there is what I would consider to be enough of a justification.