What do you guys think of SSJ4?

[Toriyama-sama]

I consider it was a very smart move by Toei. To achieve the ultimate Saiyan form, one must combine both elite-level abilities of the race, that being to keep reason while in Oozaru state and to have attained Super Saiyan power. Makes complete sense to me.

Dragon Ball GT was indeed full of great ideas. It's a shame things were executed so poorly most of the time, though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I actually like the Super Saiyan 4 design, but the execution of it in the series was crap. Also the thing that irked me was the spontaneous mysticism that seemingly comes with it. I can understand an excuse for why Goku turns back into an adult, but that doesn't explain the whole thing with the clothes. Goku and Vegeta both lose their shirts after they transform, but re-gain them when they go back to base. Not to mention Goku has a mysterious case of the amazing re-forming pants (and his belts switch too).

WTF?

Ever heard of clothes beam XD? But seriously Piccolo has used hi ki to produce clothing and Ki has been seen to warp reality more than that one time so I dont find that strang at all.

[Toriyama-sama]

Not to mention fusion

[TheMightyOzaru]

Honestly GT just needs to be remade from the ground up. It had great idea's but the plot and power scaling was so screwed up that it just wasnt as enjoyable as it could have been. That and all the characters besides Goku and Vegeta(kind of) were all useless. I can see why Gohan sucks in GT its in character according to previous "I dont like fighting attitude" but who is to say that that didnt change =/. Gohan had the heart of a warrior after getting that big power up piccolo even states he has changed mentally and physically. I can understand that he has a family to raise but you know what he can find time to train. Here is an idea the ROSAT. Seriously on his days off he can use the ROSAT for a full year of training =/. Seriously he might be able to access SSJ and SSJ2 again with enough training. Heck its even established Pan likes to fight and can pretty much take care of herself in the manga. She doesnt need a vast amount of attention. Then there is Piccolo >_>. Seriously why was he reduced to a baby sitter. There is an easy fix to this problem just let him fuse with another Super Namek. He would go through a massive power up probably allowing him to surpass SSJ2 or even SSJ3 Goku at this point making badass and useful again. Then there is Vegeta who was only using SSJ and maybe SSJ2 all of the time. Why the heck doesnt he have SSJ3? He has been training this whole time and has greatly surpassed the Goku from 15 years ago. Even if SSJ3 has weaknesses it can be used for a quick finish or hell it could have been mastered at this point. Trunks is all right I would have just prefered more power from him. He lives with Vegeta he is bound to get some training in there. Just let him have SSJ2 or hell SSJ3 let him be badass. Pan needs SSJ no questions asked. Goten seems in character I have no real complaints with him. He could have a rivalry with Trunks allowing him too to be badass and surpass SSJ as well. Oh yes and adult Gotenks needs to be a thing. Also make the Shadow Dragons more intimidating. Seriously Rage Shenron was a joke. Now that the overall character problems are out of the way, for the most part, I will move on to the villains and how their defeats were utter fails. Baby a parasite with the mind of the Tuffle King, hmm seems badass enough. Whats he look like? ...Oh... He looks like a little metal Buu with the same Pink Ki... How poweful is he? ...Oh... he got schooled by base pan... Well this guys sucks. Seriously another complaint, why the hell does he put base Vegeta at a level stronger than SSJ3 Goku? He gets schooled by pan yet he can murge and increase someones power level to that degree? That doesnt sit well with me. Alright that aside how is the fight? Well the fight goes well enough its fairly standard DBZ stuff. When he turns into an ape the fight gets intense. But then... sigh... we find out that Goku could have just removed the tail the whole time -_-. Seriously when Goku went SSJ4 he should have killed Baby right then and there. Or heck just make Baby his relative eqaul there was no need to make him an ape with such a glaring weakness that was ignored. Alright that asside Baby was a good idea it was just executed poorly like most of GT's ideas. Now on to Super 17. He is the fusion of the original android 17 and an android 17 made in hell. Hmm Its an interesting idea but how did Gero and Myu make a 17 in hell and for that matter why is he so much stronger than the orignal? Ok that aside how powerful is he? He is stronger than SSJ(2) GT Vegeta. Hmm I find that to be a bit of a stretch but ok. Well surely Vegeta can kick his ass he should have SSJ3 at this point right? RIGHT!? Dammit you dont even give us that. Oh well moving on. How is the overall fight. Again pretty standard DBZ stuff however... Goku is incredibly stupid in this fight and just keeps fueling Suepr 17. Oh yeah forgot to mention Super 17 is an energy absorbtion model... for some reason... even though neither 17's had nodes on there palms... Sigh ok moving on again. Super 17 is probably defeated in the second most stupid way in this series. Apperantly 17 is vulnerable when he is absorbing energy allowing Goku to break through his body with a Ryuken. Yeah I shouldnt even have to go over why that is stupid. Honestly I dont even consider Super 17 a good idea. For one thing I already find it hard to believe that evil people get to keep there bodies after death since we all know Vegeta doesnt but whatever. Another thing I dont like is that he is so powerful. Why the heck is 2 17's stronger than SPC let alone SSJ GT Vegeta? Now I did kind of like the scene where Goku fights Frieza and Cell but they could have done better. Thats pretty much the only redeeming factor about that arc. Oh yeah krillin dies... again... What is that 4 times now? Anyway moving on. The Shadow Dragons... Where do I begin. I guess Ill start where the arc started. Haze Shenron. I personally liked Haze. The idea of taking Ki instead of raising your own Ki was a cool idea. Now if only he wasnt so odd... Rage Shenron. Remeber how I said that that 17 recieved the second most stupid death? Well this one takes the cake of first. Rage Shenron is defeated by.... RAIN!? Thats right rain the dude cant handle a little precipitation. Oceanus Shenron. This one was ok but nothing great. Naturion Shenron. I personally didnt care for him the idea of absorbing things to make himself more powerful was neat but he couldnt handle base Goku yet when he absorbed Pan that put him on a level close to SSJ4 Goku. I find that to be more than a little off. Nuova Shenron. You know despite the copious flaws of GT they did something great with Nuova. Nuova was a respectable fighter and just had a likeable character. Nuova was a badass no question. Ice Shenron. He was just that guy who would do anything to win. He was an alright villain. Syn/Omega Shenron. He is your standard end villain. He knew how to kickass and was good at destroying stuff. His character wasnt too bad either. The Shadow Dragons as a whole are hit and miss. They were a great concept and only sometimes worked. Sorry for the rant people I just wanted to get that off my chest XD.

[Bussani]

Piccolo has used hi ki to produce clothing

I don't think we know that for sure. The guides list materializing objects as a magical art, but at the same time make a note that Piccolo and Kami's version is a bit different--more of a unique ability they're endowed with. It doesn't say it uses ki, but then again, it doesn't say it doesn't use ki, so who knows? Even if it doesn't use ki, though, I don't have a hard time believing that the Super Saiyan 4s also have this "unique ability".

A personal theory I sort of like is that transforming from (Golden) Oozaru to Super Saiyan 4 is a bit similar to how Oolong and Puar can transform, or how Sun Wukong can shapeshift in Journey to the West. In other words, the clothes could make as much sense as the bowl and chopsticks Oolong was holding when he turned into that robot thing.

and Ki has been seen to warp reality more than that one time

Could you give examples of what you mean?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo has used hi ki to produce clothing

I don't think we know that for sure. The guides list materializing objects as a magical art, but at the same time make a note that Piccolo and Kami's version is a bit different--more of a unique ability they're endowed with. It doesn't say it uses ki, but then again, it doesn't say it doesn't use ki, so who knows? Even if it doesn't use ki, though, I don't have a hard time believing that the Super Saiyan 4s also have this "unique ability".

A personal theory I sort of like is that transforming from (Golden) Oozaru to Super Saiyan 4 is a bit similar to how Oolong and Puar can transform, or how Sun Wukong can shapeshift in Journey to the West. In other words, the clothes could make as much sense as the bowl and chopsticks Oolong was holding when he turned into that robot thing.

and Ki has been seen to warp reality more than that one time

Could you give examples of what you mean?

Buu and Gotenks warp reality when they break through the dimensional barrier of the ROSAT. That supposed magic can be explained with Ki. Majin Buu's abiltiy to turn people into chocolate is a possible reality warping ability.

[Cold Skin]

I didnt care for the red fur and black hair. Its not horrible or anything I just would have preferred Gold or heck why not white that would be cool.

I can respect that but the whole red fur thing was wierd. Maybe if it was brown fur and black hair I might have liked it more.

Then you must like the alternative outfit from Budokai 3, right? Vegeta precisely has brown fur and Goku has white fur, looks like you're not the only one who thought of those colors (you can see the pictures on the color-corrected thread in the fan works section)!

[TheMightyOzaru]

I didnt care for the red fur and black hair. Its not horrible or anything I just would have preferred Gold or heck why not white that would be cool.

I can respect that but the whole red fur thing was wierd. Maybe if it was brown fur and black hair I might have liked it more.

Then you must like the alternative outfit from Budokai 3, right? Vegeta precisely has brown fur and Goku has white fur, looks like you're not the only one who thought of those colors (you can see the pictures on the color-corrected thread in the fan works section)!

I think those costumes were kind of cool. Goku's Sparking Meteor alternate costume was probably my favorite look for him. Sadly Vegeta just got Red/Pink pants =/. It actually kinda pissed me off that SSJ4 Vegeta got such a crap secondary costume in Sparking Meteor.

[Piccolo Daimao]

A personal theory I sort of like is that transforming from (Golden) Oozaru to Super Saiyan 4 is a bit similar to how Oolong and Puar can transform, or how Sun Wukong can shapeshift in Journey to the West. In other words, the clothes could make as much sense as the bowl and chopsticks Oolong was holding when he turned into that robot thing.

Then again, back then, Dragon Ball still seemed to be primarily a gag manga. Oolong himself is basically a gag character, and that whole segment with him fighting against Gokuu and losing at every turn was meant to be a gag scene too.

If they didn't want to show a man with his knob out (since, unlike children in Dragon Ball, it's not endearing and just appears out-of-place), they should've had the fur cover it up.

[Bussani]

Buu and Gotenks warp reality when they break through the dimensional barrier of the ROSAT. That supposed magic can be explained with Ki. Majin Buu's abiltiy to turn people into chocolate is a possible reality warping ability.

Hmm, okay. Personally, I don't think it's quite the same thing. Reality warping generally means re-writing reality entirely--basically what we'd call magic; what Buu and Gotenks did was just warping spacetime, which all energy (even in the real world) does to some extent and thus isn't unusual at all.

I'm not saying that ki couldn't create clothes--in fact, I'd personally be surprised if it couldn't--but as far as I'm seeing, there's no direct evidence to support our opinion.

Then again, back then, Dragon Ball still seemed to be primarily a gag manga. Oolong himself is basically a gag character, and that whole segment with him fighting against Gokuu and losing at every turn was meant to be a gag scene too.

So, what, if Dragon Ball had been more serious around that time, Oolong wouldn't have been able to transform into a robot holding a bowl and chopsticks? Gag or not, I don't have a problem with it.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Buu and Gotenks warp reality when they break through the dimensional barrier of the ROSAT. That supposed magic can be explained with Ki. Majin Buu's abiltiy to turn people into chocolate is a possible reality warping ability.

Hmm, okay. Personally, I don't think it's quite the same thing. Reality warping generally means re-writing reality entirely--basically what we'd call magic; what Buu and Gotenks did was just warping spacetime, which all energy (even in the real world) does to some extent and thus isn't unusual at all.

I'm not saying that ki couldn't create clothes--in fact, I'd personally be surprised if it couldn't--but as far as I'm seeing, there's no direct evidence to support our opinion.

Then again, back then, Dragon Ball still seemed to be primarily a gag manga. Oolong himself is basically a gag character, and that whole segment with him fighting against Gokuu and losing at every turn was meant to be a gag scene too.

So, what, if Dragon Ball had been more serious around that time, Oolong wouldn't have been able to transform into a robot holding a bowl and chopsticks? Gag or not, I don't have a problem with it.

Reality warping can alter the makeup and shape of things. Thats what Buu's chocolate beam is doing. Breaking through space time can be a reality warping ability but not always.

[dbzfan7]

Buu and Gotenks warp reality when they break through the dimensional barrier of the ROSAT. That supposed magic can be explained with Ki. Majin Buu's abiltiy to turn people into chocolate is a possible reality warping ability.

Hmm, okay. Personally, I don't think it's quite the same thing. Reality warping generally means re-writing reality entirely--basically what we'd call magic; what Buu and Gotenks did was just warping spacetime, which all energy (even in the real world) does to some extent and thus isn't unusual at all.

I'm not saying that ki couldn't create clothes--in fact, I'd personally be surprised if it couldn't--but as far as I'm seeing, there's no direct evidence to support our opinion.

Then again, back then, Dragon Ball still seemed to be primarily a gag manga. Oolong himself is basically a gag character, and that whole segment with him fighting against Gokuu and losing at every turn was meant to be a gag scene too.

So, what, if Dragon Ball had been more serious around that time, Oolong wouldn't have been able to transform into a robot holding a bowl and chopsticks? Gag or not, I don't have a problem with it.

Reality warping can alter the makeup and shape of things. Thats what Buu's chocolate beam is doing. Breaking through space time can be a reality warping ability but not always.

Pretty sure it was just magic. He didn't warp reality to do it. Boo is known as a magical creature and the candy beam is just a magic attack. Only Janemba has done reality warping.

Anyways SSJ4 should not just randomly have close disappear and reappear, Saiyans never had any relation to magic that I can think of so it makes no sense.

[Bussani]

Reality warping can alter the makeup and shape of things. Thats what Buu's chocolate beam is doing. Breaking through space time can be a reality warping ability but not always.

Yeah, exactly.

Pretty sure it was just magic. He didn't warp reality to do it. Boo is known as a magical creature and the candy beam is just a magic attack. Only Janemba has done reality warping.

It's probably just a case of semantics. Most depictions of magic can be called reality warping, but not all reality warping is magic.

That said, what does Janenba do that would be considered reality warping? I really don't remember the movies that well.

[dbzfan7]

Reality warping can alter the makeup and shape of things. Thats what Buu's chocolate beam is doing. Breaking through space time can be a reality warping ability but not always.

Yeah, exactly.

Pretty sure it was just magic. He didn't warp reality to do it. Boo is known as a magical creature and the candy beam is just a magic attack. Only Janemba has done reality warping.

It's probably just a case of semantics. Most depictions of magic can be called reality warping, but not all reality warping is magic.

That said, what does Janenba do that would be considered reality warping? I really don't remember the movies that well.

He alters the whole essence of hell, the way he travels through space has a similar sense to other reality warping characters. I wouldn't call changing close warping reality. It's more of a magic spell. I can see where the idea of it comes from, but there is nothing that suggests it was reality warping. It's more materialization then altering reality it self.

[Bussani]

He alters the whole essence of hell

Alright, that makes sense. Thanks.

the way he travels through space has a similar sense to other reality warping characters.

Does it? I'd think it was just space warping. Even the daizenshuu seems to talk about it that way, saying that he attacks from "another dimension" and whatnot.

I wouldn't call changing close warping reality. It's more of a magic spell. I can see where the idea of it comes from, but there is nothing that suggests it was reality warping. It's more materialization then altering reality it self.

If a magic spell produces something from nothing, I think someone can get away with calling that reality warping, personally. But yeah, not all materialization is reality warping, and like many fictional concepts, I suppose one person's definition of reality warping doesn't match another's. Like I said, it's all semantics--but interesting semantics.

[dbzfan7]

Does it? I'd think it was just space warping. Even the daizenshuu seems to talk about it that way, saying that he attacks from "another dimension" and whatnot.

The ability to access other dimensions sounds like ripping holes in reality.

If a magic spell produces something from nothing, I think someone can get away with calling that reality warping, personally. But yeah, not all materialization is reality warping, and like many fictional concepts, I suppose one person's definition of reality warping doesn't match another's. Like I said, it's all semantics--but interesting semantics.

Yeah that sounds like a good analysis.

[Saiga]

I don't like it.

I like the idea of the Super Saiyan + Oozaru transformation, but I don't like the colours. I don't like the random costume change, or Goku's ageing up. Super Saiyan coloured hair, and Oozaru coloured fur is what I would have liked to have seen. So much so that I paid for a commission of it just to satisfy my curiosity.

[Bussani]

The ability to access other dimensions sounds like ripping holes in reality.

Yeeaaaah, I can see where you're coming from there. It's definitely a matter of definitions. I'd call that ripping holes in spacetime myself, but people do sometimes use the word reality in that sort of context.

To me, reality warping implies working outside of the laws of physics, whereas stretching, contracting, bending and otherwise manipulating space and time is perfectly possible within the laws of physics. Basically, if the universe were a quilt, spacetime warping would be the ability to fold it up, stretch it, or otherwise manipulate it; reality warping, on the other hand, would be the ability to replace the quilt itself with whatever you want. Hiro Nakamura bends space and time; Minus bends reality.

But I wouldn't claim my definitions were more valid than yours!

Couldn't decide which Minus example was better, so have these ones, too.

[dbzfan7]

The ability to access other dimensions sounds like ripping holes in reality.

Yeeaaaah, I can see where you're coming from there. It's definitely a matter of definitions. I'd call that ripping holes in spacetime myself, but people do sometimes use the word reality that sort of context.

To me, reality warping implies working outside of the laws of physics, whereas stretching, contracting, bending and otherwise manipulating space and time is perfectly possible within the laws of physics. Basically, if the universe were a quilt, spacetime warping would be the ability to fold it up, stretch it, or otherwise manipulate it; reality warping, on the other hand, would be the ability to replace the quilt itself with whatever you want. Hiro Nakamura bends space and time; Minus bends reality.

But I wouldn't claim my definitions were more valid than yours!

Couldn't decide which Minus example was better, so have these ones, too.

A matter of definition I guess

[SaiyanZ]

I love every aspect of it. The color scheme, Goku's and Gogeta's hair, Gogeta's red hair, the return of the tail......even the eyeliner looked very cool