Gohan didn't go SSJ2 when attacking Boo's ball?

[Saiga]

Daiz shouldn't take importance over the manga, and interpret it as you'd like, Gohan's aura is that of a SSjin.

If the manga was clear there wouldn't be any question of it. The Daizenshuu is clear so I'm going with that.

[Fox666]

Nah, I'm confident he did. It was in an interview.

That is only a rumour. Besides that's far from the typical subject of his interviews.

The Daizenshuu is clear so I'm going with that.

It isn't. It is vaguely mentioned in Darbra's profile, while in another book it says the opposite.

[Saiga]

The Daizenshuu is clear so I'm going with that.

It isn't. It is vaguely mentioned in Darbra's profile, while in another book it says the opposite.

No, it is. It's not vaguely mentioned at all, flat out stated. The opposite isn't said, only implied, in a section that was wrong about another of Gohan's forms.

[Kaboom]

We don't really need another debate about this, do we?

[dprez]

I don't think Toriyama wanted Gohan to be a Ssj2 there. Gohan had lost his edge, and his struggle to maintain and control his Ssj2 form is shown here.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

For me, Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, but erroneously portrayed as a normal Super Saiyan, for some reason.

[Fox666]

We don't really need another debate about this, do we?

I should have shut my mouth...

[Mystic Gohan]

Daiz shouldn't take importance over the manga, and interpret it as you'd like, Gohan's aura is that of a SSjin.

If the manga was clear there wouldn't be any question of it. The Daizenshuu is clear so I'm going with that.

[Saiga]

Still not enough to debunk Daiz 7. SS2's have been shown without the sparks before.

[Bussani]

Still not enough to debunk Daiz 7. SS2's have been shown without the sparks before.

For a panel here and there, not for a whole chapter straight. Conversely, the Daizenshuu have been wrong before.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying neither one seems to debunk the other to me.

[Herms]

Nah, I'm confident he did. It was in an interview.

Unless you can produce this interview, I'm afraid I'll have to assume it's a rumor or you're mistaken. We've had dozens of threads on the subject and never once have I heard of this interview.

Just chiming in to say I've never seen any such interview either, in all my days of fandom. Insert the usual disclaimer here about how I might have missed it, but I have read almost every published Toriyama interview. Not only that, but I've never seen an interview where he's asked about anything remotely that obscure and specific, or seen him bring up stuff like that on his own (the closest thing I can think of is his Super Exciting Guide comment on the Super Saiyan multiplier). It just rings false.

[Mystic Gohan]

Still not enough to debunk Daiz 7. SS2's have been shown without the sparks before.

Maybe for a panel, but surely not for an entire chapter.

[Son_Gohan]

Maybe for a panel, but surely not for an entire chapter.

I think you could argue that Vegeta was using the form the entire time he was possessed. It really comes down to how the form is perceived, not everyone will share a similar viewpoint on it.

[Saiga]

Maybe for a panel, but surely not for an entire chapter.

I know. But it's not enough for me.

Daiz 7, meanwhile, openly states that he's a SS2, and that's why I go with the Daiz.

[Mystic Gohan]

Maybe for a panel, but surely not for an entire chapter.

I know. But it's not enough for me.

Daiz 7, meanwhile, openly states that he's a SS2, and that's why I go with the Daiz.

That's fine, but you do acknowledge that Gohan has an aura of a SSjin when fighting Dabura.

[Bussani]

I think you could argue that Vegeta was using the form the entire time he was possessed. It really comes down to how the form is perceived, not everyone will share a similar viewpoint on it.

I think it would be purposely obtuse of Toriyama to make Super Saiyan 2 something that can sometimes be indistinguishable from Super Saiyan. Every time it's confirmed that someone's Super Saiyan 2, they look it. I mean, it's one way to interpret it, but I can't imagine it's what Toriyama was going for.

[Saiga]

That's fine, but you do acknowledge that Gohan has an aura of a SSjin when fighting Dabura.

Nope.

[dprez]

That's fine, but you do acknowledge that Gohan has an aura of a SSjin when fighting Dabura.

Nope.

But he does, you know...

It comes down to me not having Dabura at the level of the Ssj2's, I suppose...

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think you could argue that Vegeta was using the form the entire time he was possessed. It really comes down to how the form is perceived, not everyone will share a similar viewpoint on it.

I think it would be purposely obtuse of Toriyama to make Super Saiyan 2 something that can sometimes be indistinguishable from Super Saiyan. Every time it's confirmed that someone's Super Saiyan 2, they look it. I mean, it's one way to interpret it, but I can't imagine it's what Toriyama was going for.

Well, to play devil's advocate, Bobbodi does mention that he "barely saw any difference" between Gokuu's SS1 and SS2 forms, so maybe what Toriyama had in mind really was that there wasn't much to distinguish between the two forms, and perhaps, due to Gohan being...well, Gohan, the lack of lightning sparks were due to...him being rusty?

Nah, that doesn't sound right. I'm just going to go with an out-of-universe explanation and say that Toriyama just hadn't figured out how the set-up for the Super Saiyan forms worked, given that the first time he clearly set them out (even with explicitly names that Gokuu dubbed himself: "Super Saiyan", "Super Saiyan 2", and "Super Saiyan 3", later adopted by the guidebooks and special names given to the SS Grades that Gokuu also kinda named), so perhaps, at that point, "beyond the Super Saiyan" was still just in the realm of regular Super Saiyan like the SS grades. It's pretty ambiguous and possibly a stretch, I'll admit, but it's as good as any other explanation. We can't really know what was going through Toriyama's head at the time, since the Boo arc appears to be the most spontaneous arc in the series, aside from maybe the first arc.

Another explanation could be that Toriyama wanted to make it easier to display the vast gap in power between Gohan and Gokuu & Vegeta, now that Gohan had slacked off in his training, while Gokuu and Vegeta had continued to train and reached Gohan's formerly-unique Super Saiyan 2 form too.

Either way...whenever this topic comes up, it makes my head hurt and even I flip-flop on whether or not Gohan was SS1 or SS2 against Dabra & Fat Boo (depending on whether I want to go on appearance or writing intent; something like that). But, on-topic, I think that, after the 25th TB, it could be likely that Gohan was at least maybe SS2 when he shot that last-ditch Kamehameha at Boo's shell, since Kaioushin later tells Kibito that he never saw the extent of his true power, despite the fact that he'd seen him as a SS2 back at the TB, and if Gohan was SS1, it would make things look even more silly if it went like "SS Gohan's Kamehameha > standing SS2 Gohan" rather than "SS2 Gohan's Kamehameha > standing SS2 Gohan".

[Kaboom]

Ugh. The SSj/SSj2 Gohan thing again. Okay kids, pull up a chair.

Know what you should do? Stop thinking so hard about it. Instead of trying to factor in all the tiny little implications in dialogue, and supporting or ignoring the conflicting guidebook tidbits (yes, there is a conflict, deal with it)... Just step back and look at things from a more wide narrative perspective.

In the early Majin Boo arc, Super Saiyan 2 is still the big new hotness. We see Gohan, the only person so far to pull it off, show it off again with a big full-page spread to emphasize this.

Super Saiyan 2 is what beat Cell, the last big villain. There's a clear "SSj2 is stronger than Cell" precedent established, both in statements about Gohan 7 years prior AND Goku and Vegeta's dismissive view of Dabra (which we later find out can most obviously and easily be attributed to them each having Super Saiyan 2 up their sleeves). Dabra, of course, is quickly established as a Cell-level villain as soon as we see him do anything. He falls into the same "beatable by Super Saiyan 2" category just like Cell.

So all through out the early Majin Boo arc, during the Tournament and the sequence in Bobbidi's ship and what-not, we can see there's a clear power chain being set up, all leading up to the appearance of Majin Boo himself.

First off, and sort of related, you've got characters like Piccolo and Kaioshin, and Android 18 and the kids, all serving to demonstrate the "stronger than Freeza" and "stronger than the Androids" levels from the prior arcs, below the new "standard" tier of power at work here. You've even got other, less-important lackey villains like Pui Pui and Yakon in there, too.

Then, Gohan is Super Saiyan 1, fighting Dabra at the "Cell level." Goku and Vegeta are at Super Saiyan 2, fighting at the "stronger than Cell" level. This all builds up to the debut of Majin Boo, who, ZOMG, is even more powerful than that, at a "even stronger than stronger than Cell" level.

Let me simplify this with a list of sorts:

WEAKER THAN CELL BUT STILL PRETTY DANG STRONG

• Android 18
  Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks
  Piccolo
  Kaioshin

ABOUT AS STRONG AS CELL

• Cell
  Dabra
  Super Saiyan Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan

STRONGER THAN CELL

• Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan

EVEN STRONGER THAN STRONGER THAN CELL

• Majin Boo

See what I mean? The message here is a simple but effective one. Things only get complicated when you let them be complicated. When you back up a few steps and look at things from a broader, story- and common sense-based perspective, things are a lot more clear.


Also, the art don't lie, biznatches.