Battle of Gods canon?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

So you basically believe that Oob was weaker than Freeza at that point because he wasn't using his full power? Sure he wasn't going all out, but to imply that he was holding back an amount that is weaker than Freeza is ridiculous.

Oob is like Gohan, he doesn't know how to unleash his full power. He started showing more and more of the power he had as the fight went on. Goku said he may lose to Oob and that he is exactly as strong as he thought he would be. Goku thought he would be strong enough to possibly beat him. Problem is Oob can't control and use said power, just like Gohan.

Yet Goku was fighting him in base which implies that his base is several of times stronger than Freeza. I don't believe for one minute that Goku's base has reached his limit ever since going SSJ for the first time. If you train your SSJ stages, your base also grows stronger with them by default. With all that training, how is Goku still weaker than Freeza in base?

[dbzfan7]

Yet Goku was fighting him in base which implies that his base is several of times stronger than Freeza. I don't believe for one minute that Goku's base has reached his limit ever since going SSJ for the first time. If you train your SSJ stages, your base also grows stronger with them by default. With all that training, how is Goku still weaker than Freeza in base?

Where was any of that stated? His base barely grew at all after the Cell saga. We have confirmation that Freeza>Goku Base. Oob slowly brought out his power, Notice how during the Kiai his eyes changed color to symbolize that's when he used a lot more of his hidden power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Toriyama wrote it, but Kishimoto (the creator of Naruto) wrote the newest Naruto movie as well, but it doesn't fit to the main continuity, so...

If Toriyama wrote the cript then what the hell did Watanabe do?

When did I say anything about script? Toriyama wrote the story.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It's not irrelevant in the slightest. A lot of you claim that Goku has reached his maximum, that he can't get any stronger using Toriyama's quote to interpret it that way. Oob was not using full force that's true, but he definitely wasn't displaying a power weaker than Freeza. That wouldn't make any sense.

It is completely irrelevant. You're complaining about a statement made years (in-universe) before the event you're applying it to. It's like saying that base Goku didn't stand a chance against Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc because Kami said Goku wouldn't be able to defeat Piccolo back at the 23rd Budokai.

The simple fact is that Birus said that base Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza in Battle of Gods. That doesn't mean Goku didn't become stronger than Freeza in base AFTER Battle of Gods. I'm not making any statements on Toriyama's quotes about Goku's maximum strength. Given enough time and absurd training methods, I have no problem with base Goku surpassing Vegetto. Base Goku and Uub exchanged blows and then Goku tanked a kiai that did nothing but scuff up his dogi. I see absolutely no evidence in that battle that forces Uub to be any higher than wherever the individual fan has base Goku at that point in the series, whether that be above or below Freeza. So I'm perfectly fine with the base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza in base during the movie's time frame, and personally, I agree with the statement and have always believed they were weaker than the tyrant, even before Battle of Gods.

[dbzfan7]

Well, Toriyama wrote it, but Kishimoto (the creator of Naruto) wrote the newest Naruto movie as well, but it doesn't fit to the main continuity, so...

If Toriyama wrote the cript then what the hell did Watanabe do?

When did I say anything about script? Toriyama wrote the story.

Didn't it also say Toriyama wrote the script.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Didn't it also say Toriyama wrote the script.

What said it? Watanabe wrote the script, Toriyama wrote the story.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I personally think it's canon. I don't see a reason to disregard it unless you're a strict manga purist.

[Kamiccolo9]

I personally think it's canon. I don't see a reason to disregard it unless you're a strict manta purist.

Manta?

Spoiler:

[dbzfan7]

Didn't it also say Toriyama wrote the script.

What said it? Watanabe wrote the script, Toriyama wrote the story.

I heard that this is the first time you’ve been deeply involved with the script of a movie; please tell us the reason.

The catalyst was that, first of all, when the script originally came to me, there was a lot of the sort of dialogue that only the creator would know, so I thought, “that bothers me”, and then this and that also started to get on my mind, and so rather than telling them to revise each individual thing, I thought it might be faster if I just wrote the script myself.

[RandomGuy96]

I personally think it's canon. I don't see a reason to disregard it unless you're a strict manta purist.

Manta?

Spoiler:

Now I'm getting a combination of aquarium and Half Life flashbacks.

[Michelle91]

To me.

Manga canon:

Episode of Bardock
DB Manga
2008 Jump Special
Battle of Gods
DB Online

Anime canon:

Bardock TV special
DB anime
DBZ Movie 1
DBZ Movie 9
DBZ anime
DBZ Movie 13
GT

[Rocketman]

Is it in the 42 volumes? No? Then it can choke itself on its own shit and die.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Is it in the 42 volumes? No? Then it can choke itself on its own shit and die.

So stuff can't be added to the continuity of something now?

[Shineman]

Here's my view about canon:

It doesn't really bother me per-say, if one does not put into the account of putting anime within their arguments. For my perspective of the case, when a series, such as Dragon Ball has no define canon, I just used all media that fits within the timeline, unless stated otherwise; kind of like Digimon (although it's canon is completely differs than that of Dragon Ball). For example, I considered the manga, anime (meaning fillers included), few movies and GT to be part of the Official Dragon Ball Timeline/History. Noticed that I haven't mention canon, because there is no "canon". The term canon is often dispute within the Dragon Ball community and will always have disagreements from many sides, thus turning into an ugly debate because no one can't seem to agree on the definition of canon.

Canon is a series of events that has been considered "part of the timeline/history" by the original creator(s)/Rights Holders. It does not necessarily means "this is real"; In other words, if Bird Studios/Toei/Toriyama were to considered Battle of Gods "canon", then it wouldn't mean that "this is real" but rather, it's part of the official history of the series. If they were to say it's non-canon, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it just rather not part of the history of the series, and rather a "alternate story" of Dragon Ball.

In the end, disregarding this and disregarding that can be a handful when it comes to Dragon Ball, because there is no defined canon. Of course, we get statements throw around here and there; whereas Toriyama stated that movies are like alternate timeline (someone correct me on this), GT is a side-story, Battle of Gods takes place before Oob and GT [Funny how they mention GT], but after Boo. Then we have guides such as Daizenshuu and GT Perfect files, then we have some secondary materials of the series here and there. Often creates a clusterfuck of such case. However, I think that people should leave canon off of the table, because it's clear as day that some has a good understanding of what's canon means because there are so many disagreements. Hell, as I'm typing this up, I probably don't think I have knowledge of what canon actually means!

I don't see a big deal about it anyways. The question remains; if Toriyama, Toei, Shesuida and/or any other rights holder stated that this bit of Dragon Ball is part of the official history of Dragon Ball, is it really that of a big deal?

[Zephyr]

"It was badly written"

"It has plotholes"

"It's shit"

...are, by themselves, among the worst reasons to disregard it, due to the fact that the manga itself is guilty of all three of these things to varying degrees throughout the story. This is besides the fact that two of those are subjective.

[VegettoEX]

Is it in the 42 volumes? No? Then it can choke itself on its own shit and die.

So stuff can't be added to the continuity of something now?

As I've been saying since my first post in this thread, yes, that's an absolutely valid viewpoint to take and line in the sand to draw and never so much as tiptoe over.

For what it's worth, I'm the same way with Buffy the Vampire Slayer / Angel. I don't care how much involvement Joss Whedon had in whatever product that was created after the shows end, comics or otherwise. To me, the storyline ends with the conclusion of the last TV episode of Angel.

[Son_Gohan]

There are just things from it that I can't take seriously. Like Freeza > Base Goku (Boo saga and onward) which contradicts the manga

Well actually I think even in the manga you could find it's vaguely suggested. Freeza is brought up in the Buu arc while they're all headed towards Babidi's ship and his strength is used as a marker for how strong the Kaioshins are. If his power were now completely overcast by the main characters in every way, there is no value in his name being used so far in the story as a promotion of strength. There is also no reason for Goku and Vegeta to react the way they did upon it being mentioned if it weren't something they needed to transform to carry out. So I don't find the idea coming as anything completely new from the Battle of the Gods. I think Toriyama always believed it to be this way and made indication of it during serialization, the film merely makes it more explicit. The disapproval it's received only comes from fans' own subjective interpretations, not any formerly established fact.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There are just things from it that I can't take seriously. Like Freeza > Base Goku (Boo saga and onward) which contradicts the manga

What? When? How?

[RandomGuy96]

BOG can't be part of the Dragon Ball canon for the same reason I can't have a pet Bigfoot; it doesn't exist.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Yet Goku was fighting him in base which implies that his base is several of times stronger than Freeza. I don't believe for one minute that Goku's base has reached his limit ever since going SSJ for the first time. If you train your SSJ stages, your base also grows stronger with them by default. With all that training, how is Goku still weaker than Freeza in base?

Where was any of that stated? His base barely grew at all after the Cell saga. We have confirmation that Freeza>Goku Base. Oob slowly brought out his power, Notice how during the Kiai his eyes changed color to symbolize that's when he used a lot more of his hidden power.

His base barely growing contradicts the multipliers. Unless your willing to believe that multipliers don't apply to going SSJ and something else happens. Besides, I thought it was common sense that training with your SSJ levels increases your base by default.