Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
SS3 Goku was retconned to be more powerful than ultimate Gohan hence the whole creation of Orginal Boo etc. I believe this because Toriyama upped the ante per every other villain and did so with Boo plus in terms of the franchise as a whole all the ads etc for Battle of Gods hyped up a being stronger than SS3 Goku, Movie 13 Goku was the most powerful, GT did not even care about Ultimate Gohan, Goku wants to fight strong people and so Original Boo was reincarnated. Plus when Gotenks absorbed Boo reverts to Piccolo absorbed Boo Goku says he is disapointed and "Even Gohan can beat you now." The whole smaller than a flea arg makes sense too cuz Vegeta and Goku have no idea what being in Boo has done to them and if there Ki will return hence why "they will die like they are now." And if Kid Boo is supposed to be so much weaker than Super Boo why make a point that Goku says he could have beat fat boo and then have fat boo fight original boo and get his ass handed to him? The whole thing is a convoluted point taht over analysis leads to certain rationalizations and conclusions...but it's a kid story: end of series strongest guy fights strongest villain and wins...Goku is supposed to be the strongest (aside from the Cell arc) he really always has been. Plus all franchise material touts Goku as the strongest and there is even this:
Original Boo is stronger that Super Boo. I believe this again because of how Toriyama upped the ante per villain and was less concerned with Battle Power scaling than the overall story as a whole. Goku ends the series and is number 1 hero becuase he fought and defeated the number one villain. It's a kids story and is the obvious simplest answer: strongest guy beats strongest bad guy...no convoluted power scaling to arrive at that just slack jawed acceptance kind of like how I accept the dragon balls grant wishes.
I completely agree with this. I just don't understand why people don't think Toriyama would actively ret-con the Boo Arc when even in the narration it is done.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:
khalildh wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I have a contraversial idea, if that counts for anything. I think the base Saiyans can put about 1/5 of their Ssj energy into their base forms, at maximum, to power themselves up without transforming. This is how I made sense of GT.
I tried to use this type of explanation for the Android Arc... It didn't turn out well for the Humans in either case.
I should probably mention that this power up is only possible after mastering Ssj IMO. I don't really see why this would be necessary in the cyborg arc.
I was trying to argue that all of the main cast could increase there power of there base by up to 25x in order to try and keep the humans relevant (Kind of like an unmentioned Kaio-ken, it also gets rid of some of the Android 20 arguments), it isn't really necessary per se, but it was a fun thought experiment.
Why would the humans be able to do that? My theory is based on Ssj energy, humans don't have that.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
SS3 Goku was retconned to be more powerful than ultimate Gohan hence the whole creation of Orginal Boo etc. I believe this because Toriyama upped the ante per every other villain and did so with Boo plus in terms of the franchise as a whole all the ads etc for Battle of Gods hyped up a being stronger than SS3 Goku, Movie 13 Goku was the most powerful, GT did not even care about Ultimate Gohan, Goku wants to fight strong people and so Original Boo was reincarnated. Plus when Gotenks absorbed Boo reverts to Piccolo absorbed Boo Goku says he is disapointed and "Even Gohan can beat you now." The whole smaller than a flea arg makes sense too cuz Vegeta and Goku have no idea what being in Boo has done to them and if there Ki will return hence why "they will die like they are now." And if Kid Boo is supposed to be so much weaker than Super Boo why make a point that Goku says he could have beat fat boo and then have fat boo fight original boo and get his ass handed to him? The whole thing is a convoluted point taht over analysis leads to certain rationalizations and conclusions...but it's a kid story: end of series strongest guy fights strongest villain and wins...Goku is supposed to be the strongest (aside from the Cell arc) he really always has been. Plus all franchise material touts Goku as the strongest and there is even this: http://imageshack.us/m/823/8452/ssjforms.jpg
Original Boo is stronger that Super Boo. I believe this again because of how Toriyama upped the ante per villain and was less concerned with Battle Power scaling than the overall story as a whole. Goku ends the series and is number 1 hero becuase he fought and defeated the number one villain. It's a kids story and is the obvious simplest answer: strongest guy beats strongest bad guy...no convoluted power scaling to arrive at that just slack jawed acceptance kind of like how I accept the dragon balls grant wishes.
But it was implied in the manga that Pure Boo was weaker than Evil Boo, meaning that Toriyama didn't retcon anything to make Goku stronger. Instead, he made Boo weaker.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Yes, it's not Toriyama's style to make the next guy stronger, that's just the natural progression In a story with super powered beings. I would like to point out that C-19 and C-20 weren't stronger than Freeza. Dabura wasn't stronger than Super Perfect Cell. The next bad guy doesn't have to be stronger than the last. You can think Pure Buu is stronger if you want, but nothing hints at the idea of a retcon, in fact quite the opposite is true.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
SS3 Goku was retconned to be more powerful than ultimate Gohan hence the whole creation of Orginal Boo etc. I believe this because Toriyama upped the ante per every other villain and did so with Boo plus in terms of the franchise as a whole all the ads etc for Battle of Gods hyped up a being stronger than SS3 Goku, Movie 13 Goku was the most powerful, GT did not even care about Ultimate Gohan, Goku wants to fight strong people and so Original Boo was reincarnated. Plus when Gotenks absorbed Boo reverts to Piccolo absorbed Boo Goku says he is disapointed and "Even Gohan can beat you now." The whole smaller than a flea arg makes sense too cuz Vegeta and Goku have no idea what being in Boo has done to them and if there Ki will return hence why "they will die like they are now." And if Kid Boo is supposed to be so much weaker than Super Boo why make a point that Goku says he could have beat fat boo and then have fat boo fight original boo and get his ass handed to him? The whole thing is a convoluted point taht over analysis leads to certain rationalizations and conclusions...but it's a kid story: end of series strongest guy fights strongest villain and wins...Goku is supposed to be the strongest (aside from the Cell arc) he really always has been. Plus all franchise material touts Goku as the strongest and there is even this: http://imageshack.us/m/823/8452/ssjforms.jpg
Original Boo is stronger that Super Boo. I believe this again because of how Toriyama upped the ante per villain and was less concerned with Battle Power scaling than the overall story as a whole. Goku ends the series and is number 1 hero becuase he fought and defeated the number one villain. It's a kids story and is the obvious simplest answer: strongest guy beats strongest bad guy...no convoluted power scaling to arrive at that just slack jawed acceptance kind of like how I accept the dragon balls grant wishes.
But it was implied in the manga that Pure Boo was weaker than Evil Boo, meaning that Toriyama didn't retcon anything to make Goku stronger. Instead, he made Boo weaker.
It was blatantly stated that Burly Boo is stronger than Super Boo, so at least 2x Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo, you can't get around that. It is than implied that the once Kid Boo is formed the increase either stops or falls slightly.
Honestly I am of the belief that the Boo's power levels are rather similar and that Super Boo is just better at using his Ki for fighting than Majin Boo. Whereas Original Boo's Ki is completely released instead of slightly suppressed like Super Boo.
khalildh wrote:It was blatantly stated that Burly Boo is stronger than Super Boo, so at least 2x Kid Boo is stronger than Super Boo, you can't get around that. It is than implied that the once Kid Boo is formed the increase either stops or falls slightly.
Goku said that he & Vegeta together wouldn't stand a chance against Evil Boo, except if they merged. When Evil Boo turns into S. Kaioshin Boo, Goku & Vegeta were panicked because his power was rising. But when S. Kaioshin turned into Pure Boo, Goku & Vegeta calmed down because his power fell, and they both believed that SS3 Goku would be strong enough to eradicate Boo with a full power blast.
And I stop here.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Can I throw up the CODE PINK or is that Dbzfan7's job?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
CODE RANGER RED here and we got a big CODE PINK with a hint of ORANGE
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Can I throw up the CODE PINK or is that Dbzfan7's job?
It's a Code Ranger thing. It's anyone who is a Code Ranger's job. Though I don't mind if someone else uses it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:CODE RANGER RED here and we got a big CODE PINK with a hint of ORANGE
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Can I throw up the CODE PINK or is that Dbzfan7's job?
It's a Code Ranger thing. It's anyone who is a Code Ranger's job. Though I don't mind if someone else uses it.
Well I could be a purple ranger or something .
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
dbzfan7 wrote:CODE RANGER RED here and we got a big CODE PINK with a hint of ORANGE
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Can I throw up the CODE PINK or is that Dbzfan7's job?
It's a Code Ranger thing. It's anyone who is a Code Ranger's job. Though I don't mind if someone else uses it.
Well I could be a purple ranger or something .
There's Black, Gold, and Silver. Never heard of purple.
Apparently having the boys (Goten and Trunks) close to the adults is controversial?
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Another thing I forgot to mention: I don't take statements or feats from the anime as facts if they are contradicted by previously known information or by logic. So, Oozaru Vegeta is not stronger than SS4 Goku in GT, and base Goku isn't stronger than SS3 Goku from Z.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:There's Black, Gold, and Silver. Never heard of purple.
Apparently having the boys (Goten and Trunks) close to the adults is controversial?
If allowed, I'd take black .
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
dbzfan7 wrote:There's Black, Gold, and Silver. Never heard of purple.
Apparently having the boys (Goten and Trunks) close to the adults is controversial?
If allowed, I'd take black .
Tis done.
I'll now add having SSJ Gogeta above SSJ Gotenks and not SSJ3 Gotenks, Boohan or Vegetto level as another controversial opinion.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I have a few that have been said before but here goes:
I believe Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin. I think so because Kaioshin didn't seam anywhere near the Super Saiyans power,( Hell even the base saiyans look stronger than Kaioshin at times, although I don't necessarily believe this. ) where Piccolo has been around that level since the Cell Games. Piccolo was utterly shocked by Kaioshins presence on Earth. His forfeit was out of fear and confusion, imo. Of course Piccolo could sense great power from him, but he was also mind blown thinking why the freaking God of the universe was here, especially on that day, and his intentions.
Gohan went Ssj2 one single time only after the Cell Games. He was not used to it and had trouble achieving the form later during his fights with Dabra and Buu. Videl's near fatal beating was what triggered his rage at the tournament. Afterwords it seamed he was timid about using the form, and complacent with his regular Ssj power.
I've heard some dumb logic that Vegeta post 1st Zarbon fight zenkai still has a lower battle power than Monster Zarbon despite decimating him in their fight. This all because Vegeta threw dirt in Zarbon's eyes.
Or I liked P123's 100 percent Mecha Freeza > SSJ Yadrat Goku and Goku only won in the Future with a Shunkan Ido Kamehameha.
Also all the Freeza > 19, 20, and Android saga Piccolo crap.
Gogeta is the most overrated character ever and weaker than Buuhan even as an SS3 (at least in the Z era).
Vegeta was weaker than Monster Zarbon in their fight.
By the Buu Saga, Krillin and Ten are around the android saga base saiyans.
Dabra is stronger than any non-fused Super Saiyan, but weaker than SS2 Gohan.
Mr. Buu is nearly as strong as SS3 Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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