"Explain why DBZ is bad."

[UpFromTheSkies]

If you judge the series for what it's meant to be, which is a fun action-comedy series made for kids and teens, it's a great series. But if you hold it up against series with a serious, complex plot, and heavy character development, then sure it's going to fall short. But that's like comparing a pop song to Beethoven's 5th symphony...

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

For someone called 'ThatDBZGuy', you sure do put a lot of effort into acting negatively towards he series.

[Gonstead]

Not that I'm trying to sound mean or anything but if you really don't like the series, why are you on a forum that is dedicated to such a series?

[thatdbzguy]

If some people consider him to be the greatest, you can disagree, but you can't say they are wrong. How does one determine who the greatest musician is?
That's not an answer. What qualities does a story have to have for it to be considered "objectively good?" You've said that DB is bad, now what is a universally good series?

Breaking Bad is objectively good.
Avatar: TLA is objectively good.
Batman: TAS is objectively good.

Why are they objectively good? Because they don't have countless amounts of plot holes, stories that don't rely on a formula and characters making dumb decisions, three-dimensional characters, and cohesive writing.

DBZ has none of that, hence why it's objectively bad.

[thatdbzguy]

Not that I'm trying to sound mean or anything but if you really don't like the series, why are you on a forum that is dedicated to such a series?

I do like the series.

I just am able to realize that it's complete and utter crap from an objective standpoint.

[VegettoEX]

I think the good lot of you are totally personifying the series and getting defensive in an almost obscene way.

If you can't take your fandom / yourself NOT seriously for even a brief second, I don't even know how it is you've become a fan of Dragon Ball in the first place, and you absolutely seem to have no place tossing thoughts into this discussion.

And that's not even the best way to put it. It's absolutely a serious question and a serious discussion. There's so much to go into. It's absolutely incredibly interesting and boggles my mind. The psychology of why my absolute favorite series may not even be that good on a basic writing level excites me on this bizarre psychological level. It's like Goku coming up against a strong opponent. I want nothing more than to understand why and see it through to the end.

It's so goddamn good.

If you're not even remotely interested in getting engaged in that, please don't even bother posting. Defend it or attack it. I don't care. Just be relevant and be awesome.

[thatdbzguy]

If you judge the series for what it's meant to be, which is a fun action-comedy series made for kids and teens, it's a great series. But if you hold it up against series with a serious, complex plot, and heavy character development, then sure it's going to fall short. But that's like comparing a pop song to Beethoven's 5th symphony...

So basically, I shouldn't expect DBZ to be good.

[Hellspawn28]

While I still love DB, I won't put it in my top 10 favorite anime/manga. I think people who say DBZ is the greatest anime of all time, most likely never seen much shows but I respect their opinion.

[Kamiccolo9]

If some people consider him to be the greatest, you can disagree, but you can't say they are wrong. How does one determine who the greatest musician is?
That's not an answer. What qualities does a story have to have for it to be considered "objectively good?" You've said that DB is bad, now what is a universally good series?

Breaking Bad is objectively good.
Avatar: TLA is objectively good.
Batman: TAS is objectively good.

Why are they objectively good? Because they don't have countless amounts of plot holes, stories that don't rely on a formula and characters making dumb decisions, three-dimensional characters, and cohesive writing.

DBZ has none of that, hence why it's objectively bad.

But there's a huge group of people who don't like Avatar, and think it's a boring show! They are spread out all across the internet!
Learn what objectively good and bad mean before you start spouting it off like some kind of dogma. You don't get to decided whether a show is good or bad for someone else. Dragon Ball's purpose is to entertain. If it accomplishes that goal for someone, then it is a good show. If not, then it is a bad show. It's that simple. There are no universal rules as to what makes any kind of series "good" or "bad." It's all in the eye of the beholder.

[Kid Buu]

I think its fine you have issues with DBZ, but you're posts come across with a lot of self-pity and depression towards liking it. I don't mean to be rude, but if liking a particular TV Show is the most worrysome thing in your life - you've actually got a damn good life.

[DBZAOTA482]

You seriously need help.

[Gonstead]

Not that I'm trying to sound mean or anything but if you really don't like the series, why are you on a forum that is dedicated to such a series?

I do like the series.

I just am able to realize that it's complete and utter crap from an objective standpoint.

From what I've seen, you're only speaking in terms of the story.

There are other portions which define how "good" or "bad" a show is to somebody. The music, the acting, the art etc.

Again, not trying to seem mean or coming off as antagonizing but the story isn't the only worthwhile thing that is discussed around here.

[thatdbzguy]

I think its fine you have issues with DBZ, but you're posts come across with a lot of self-pity and depression towards liking it. I don't mean to be rude, but if liking a particular TV Show is the most worrysome thing in your life - you've actually got a damn good life.

I never said I had a bad life, but okay.

[thatdbzguy]

Not that I'm trying to sound mean or anything but if you really don't like the series, why are you on a forum that is dedicated to such a series?

I do like the series.

I just am able to realize that it's complete and utter crap from an objective standpoint.

From what I've seen, you're only speaking in terms of the story.

There are other portions which define how "good" or "bad" a show is to somebody. The music, the acting, the art etc.

Again, not trying to seem mean or coming off as antagonizing but the story isn't the only worthwhile thing that is discussed around here.

The story is the most important thing in a story. If it sucks, then you fail as a piece of literature.

[thatdbzguy]

I think the fact that nobody here can refute the points I made in my first post just goes to show how bad DBZ is.

[Weejus]

The story is the most important thing in a story. If it sucks, then you fail as a piece of literature.

But Dragon Ball's source material is a manga, which uses art in tandem with literature. Instead of bashing the story like a dead horse, why not tell us your say on the art?

[TheAldella]

I agree with most of this post, actually. It's good to move on from thinking this show is a ball of great plot once in a while. It allows other works to breathe and become their own thing in the mind of the viewer.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. Could you elaborate on that?

Oh, sorry, I'm always used to being buddy-buddy with people, so I'm real casual-like. Let's see....It's like allowing Dragon Ball to step down for a bit and letting other things fill its place, I guess...I think that's right.

[Kid Buu]

I think its fine you have issues with DBZ, but you're posts come across with a lot of self-pity and depression towards liking it. I don't mean to be rude, but if liking a particular TV Show is the most worrysome thing in your life - you've actually got a damn good life.

I never said I had a bad life, but okay.

I know you didn't, but its the way you come across. You come across as having some major depression and self-pity because you enjoy DBZ.

[thatdbzguy]

The story is the most important thing in a story. If it sucks, then you fail as a piece of literature.

But Dragon Ball's source material is a manga, which uses art in tandem with literature. Instead of bashing the story like a dead horse, why not tell us your say on the art?

The art is no more important than the story.

[B]

A repetitive, overly simplistic story
Ever saga in DBZ follows the same basic formula: Bad guy shows up, good guys get there ass beaten, good guys train, Goku beats bad guy (excluding Cell Games). This would not be such a problem if DBZ provided some sort of depth and complexity for each saga that helped to separate themselves more form the basic formula. But no, that's far from the case. Instead, we get barebones stories that only show off this issue more than DBZ already was.

Characters range from being one-dimensional to two-dimensional
DBZ's philosophies are very black and white, and the characters themselves almost never deviate from the traits that they're introduced with. (Ex: Goku) The fact that not a single character can be considered three-dimensional or more in the story is pitiful, and it goes to show that Toriyama hardly put any effort into making them. Even when character's do experience some kind of development, it usually feels forced and unnatural (like Piccolo's relationship with Gohan, Vegeta and Bulma having a kid, etc.)

Toriyama says "you're welcome." He's done plenty of interviews for Battle of Gods, and has been completely open about your complaints, and sees them as strengths. Toriyama is not trying to move you emotionally or challenge you. DB is designed to be enjoyed with your brain shut off, and Toriyama is completely shameless about that fact.

... That being said, I would take umbrage with more or less all your points. Much like Toriyama, I don't feel the things you label as faults are actually faults. Or, at the very least, they don't make the story objectively low-quality.

I think the fact that nobody here can refute the points I made in my first post just goes to show how bad DBZ is.

Hrm, thankfully this thread is moving fast and I caught this before I hit submit. Per the above, the majority of your complaints don't need to be refuted because there's nothing inherently wrong with them.