Who's Stronger: Janemba or Hirudegarn.

[goku the krump dancer]

If Goku's hits hurt Janemba then Vegeta's hits hurt Fat Boo. Thats how I see it.. Goku may have hit Janemba a couple times but it was nothing that really did any damage. Janemba's "special powers" are just his regular ol' abilities not desperado moves, especially since he wasnt panicking while opening the portals or dematerializing.

Being stunned a bit is different from having severe pain being felt. Broly was stunned when Gohan knocked himself loose from his grip, Freeza was stunned when Piccolo delivered that surprise kick to help Goku finish the Spirit Bomb, Gero was stunned when Gohan knocked Piccolo out of his hold.

Real damage was felt when Cell punched Vegeta in the nose and his face was bruised and started bleeding, real damage was felt when Goku delivered that thunderous gut punch to Freeza or when Gohan head butted Raditz.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The movies are too inconsistent to tell

[Hugo Boss]

Toei gave a simple response to this question: Janenba is the No. 1 movie villain. I don't really think Beerus fits villaneous characteristics, it is just his job to destroy by his own judgement, to maintain balance of 7th Universe (Dragon World), the same with Whis whose role is to take care of Beerus. Of course, in the future the franchise can give us new villains.

[RandomGuy96]

If Goku's hits hurt Janemba then Vegeta's hits hurt Fat Boo. Thats how I see it.. Goku may have hit Janemba a couple times but it was nothing that really did any damage. Janemba's "special powers" are just his regular ol' abilities not desperado moves, especially since he wasnt panicking while opening the portals or dematerializing.

Being stunned a bit is different from having severe pain being felt. Broly was stunned when Gohan knocked himself loose from his grip, Freeza was stunned when Piccolo delivered that surprise kick to help Goku finish the Spirit Bomb, Gero was stunned when Gohan knocked Piccolo out of his hold.

Real damage was felt when Cell punched Vegeta in the nose and his face was bruised and started bleeding, real damage was felt when Goku delivered that thunderous gut punch to Freeza or when Gohan head butted Raditz.

Vegeta's hits DID hurt Fat Buu. Fat Buu said as much himself. Which I see as evidence that Fat Buu- at least at that point- is less than twice as strong as Vegeta.

Broly was actually hurt, those other two are surprise attacks, which are a different beast. There's a difference between "damage" and "pain". If Janemba was as strong as Super Buu, then those hits wouldn't have hurt Janemba at all; it'd be like when Semi-Perfect Cell was punched by 16. Goku hitting Janemba would be like me hitting a brick wall. But they did do something, Janemba was knocked back, stunned, and had the standard "ow" face. Goku's first kick even left a dent. So he can't be twice as strong or anything like that.

I take a similar view to DBZGTKOSDH: if Janemba is a 10, Goku is an 8. It's even possible for Goku to be STRONGER than Janemba, all things considered.

Toei gave a simple response to this question: Janenba is the No. 1 movie villain.

No, they 'stated' it on an old now defunct website that referenced events that didn't happen and also basically stated SS3 Goku can one-shot Ultimate Gohan, and that also contradicts the actual writer of these films saying that new movie villains should "at least" be stronger than the old ones.

But Janenba did damage Goku (hence not vice-versa).

Janemba didn't do any damage to Goku with physical punches or kicks, so we can't compare them there. He only hit Goku with ki blasts, while thanks to Janemba's portals, Goku couldn't do the same.

Nothing suggests that he had to, it's just the way he fights. Janenba looked like he was playing the whole time, while Goku was struggling hard.

Uh... he engaged Goku hand to hand, repeatedly failed to hit him, and was hit numerous times in turn. Then he resorted to mini-portals, becoming intangible, spawning a sword, etc. That's pretty clear evidence that he would have a hard time without his special powers.

As I said, I think Janemba is a closer counterpart to Pure Buu than he is to Super Buu (even though I'm pretty sure Toriyama hadn't even thought up Pure Buu at this point). Much smaller than his fat form, incapable of speech, has a fight with SS3 Goku where Goku gets in some hits but quickly loses due to many factors (including his enemy's abilities), proceeds to beat up SS2 Vegeta, and is only beaten by an extreme measure Goku and Vegeta execute while another character distracts the enemy. Since Fat Janemba is stronger than Fat Buu, I have Super Janemba a little stronger than Pure Buu as well.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toei gave a simple response to this question: Janenba is the No. 1 movie villain. I don't really think Beerus fits villaneous characteristics, it is just his job to destroy by his own judgement, to maintain balance of 7th Universe (Dragon World), the same with Whis whose role is to take care of Beerus. Of course, in the future the franchise can give us new villains.

Beerus shouldn't be taken into account because the statement exists before Beerus. Beerus is stronger than Hildegarn & Janenba, obviously.

[Hugo Boss]

I guess I wasn't clear, sorry. The 'question' I'm referring to is the thread itself, the literal answer is here:

The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.

By watching the two movies, I think it is exactly what happens. I don't remember the former scriptwriter Takao Koyama saying new villains "have to", rather "should", be stronger than the previous ones. Bio Broli and Hirudegarn seem to be exceptions to the tendence. By the way, when I read the interview, he left me the impression that Broli appeared 3 times in a row and that "Bio-Broly" was the last movie before "Battle of Gods". He even forgot to mention Bojack and the later villains.

My mistake, I used "villain" instead of "enemy", whose interpretation may differ from bad people to foe. However, well said, Beerus didn't exist when the statement was made and end up being invited to another party, though suggesting Goku & Vegeta might be formidable foes in a not-so-distant future.

[RandomGuy96]

The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.

Yes, and as has been pointed out this now non-existent statement doesn't make any sense.

If Hirudegarn is "officially" weaker than Janemba, then SS3 Goku is "officially" weaker than Movie 8 Broly.

By watching the two movies, I think it is exactly what happens.

Hirudegarn never traded blows evenly with SS3 Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, and as has been pointed out this now non-existent statement doesn't make any sense.

Well, the statement doesn't exist along with that Toei's website anymore, but why wouldn't it make sense in the movies?

If Hirudegarn is "officially" weaker than Janemba, then SS3 Goku is "officially" weaker than Movie 8 Broly.

When exactly was officially stated Broli is stronger than SS3 Goku?

Hirudegarn never traded blows evenly with SS3 Goku.

I guess you can see from 47:00 to 49:00.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, the statement doesn't exist along with that Toei's website anymore, but why wouldn't it make sense in the movies?

Because it references events the didn't happen and is saying that SS3 Goku could one-shot Gohan.

When exactly was officially stated Broli is stronger than SS3 Goku?

I'm using "officially" mockingly, as I don't like whenever that's thrown around as evidence of Janemba's superiority. Anything licensed is technically "official".

What I'm referring to specifically is a section in V-Jump where someone asked about kiris. The "DB Professor" responded that 1 kiri = 50,000 battle power units... because SS Goku had a reading of 3,000, and his power level was 150,000,000. Basically saying that SS Goku (Buu Saga) = SS Goku (Freeza Saga). Multiply that by 8 and you get 1.2 billion. In that same magazine, LSS Broly (presuambly in Movie is listed as having a power level of 1.4 billion.

I guess you can see from 47:00 to 49:00.

They didn't "trade blows evenly". Hirudegarn just punched Goku. Eventually, Goku used one super attack and instantly won.

[Mystic Buu]

I think Janemba is stronger.And here is the proof: Super Janemba is stronger than even the Genmajin Hirudegarn, since Hirudegarn was capable of trading blows evenly with Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Super Janemba could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku.I found this on DB wikia.

[RandomGuy96]

I think Janemba is stronger.And here is the proof: Super Janemba is stronger than even the Genmajin Hirudegarn, since Hirudegarn was capable of trading blows evenly with Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Super Janemba could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku.I found this on DB wikia.

That's already been discussed. Also, please don't use the DB wiki.

[Hugo Boss]

Because it references events the didn't happen and is saying that SS3 Goku could one-shot Gohan.

Well, it doesn't mention Gohan at all (guess you are saying Goku could defeat Gohan with one blow?). The movie shows Hirudegarn beating Gohan, but he wasn't totally beaten, he was still trying to stand up and remembered Goku about Hirudegarn's weakness and then.. we don't know if Gohan managed to get up off-screen, we only know by the end all of them were fine. And by saying "events that didn't happen", what do you mean? Goku defeated Hirudegarn, but couldn't do the same thing with Janenba without fusion.

I'm using "officially" mockingly, as I don't like whenever that's thrown around as evidence of Janemba's superiority. Anything licensed is technically "official".

No need to mock, we are supposed to share thoughts and contribute in something. Sorry if I misunderstood you, I really don't want to thrown evidences like I actually own them. Of course, we are free to disagree.

What I'm referring to specifically is a section in V-Jump where someone asked about kiris. The "DB Professor" responded that 1 kiri = 50,000 battle power units... because SS Goku had a reading of 3,000, and his power level was 150,000,000. Basically saying that SS Goku (Buu Saga) = SS Goku (Freeza Saga). Multiply that by 8 and you get 1.2 billion. In that same magazine, LSS Broly (presuambly in Movie is listed as having a power level of 1.4 billion.

I wasn't aware of these battle powers, interesting information. Discussing about kiris, I don't think SS Goku had a maximum of 150 million, since he would be weaker than Coola whose battle power in the same edition is 470 million. At normal form, Goku could even dodge Yakon's blows by sensing his movements and landing hits, but would need Gohan's help to avoid eventual damage and defeat him without Super Saiyan. I assume they had to be at least above 400 kiris or 20 million and close to 800 kiris or 40 million.

They didn't "trade blows evenly". Hirudegarn just punched Goku. Eventually, Goku used one super attack and instantly won.

By "trading blows evenly", I think it is like saying Hirudegarn's blows have effect similar of Goku's blows or in a simple way, they are about equal. Your description is what I have in my mind, they trade blows but, in a desproportional matter, Goku is the smaller one and can concentrate his blow in a weak point.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, it doesn't mention Gohan at all (guess you are saying Goku could defeat Gohan with one blow?). The movie shows Hirudegarn beating Gohan, but he wasn't totally beaten, he was still trying to stand up and remembered Goku about Hirudegarn's weakness and then.. we don't know if Gohan managed to get up off-screen, we only know by the end all of them were fine. And by saying "events that didn't happen", what do you mean? Goku defeated Hirudegarn, but couldn't do the same thing with Janenba without fusion.

It says that Goku was fighting evenly with Hirudegarn, who defeated Gohan with a light smack of his tail.

Goku didn't discover any weakness in Hirudegarn. Though I guess you could say that cutting off Hirudegarn's tail made him weaker, if you want to make sense of things.

Goku being in Gohan's league at all is obviously wrong, but that's what the statement implies.

The trading blows evenly thing never happened. The entry also failed to mention the technique Goku used to beat Hirudegarn, because the same thing would have worked on Janemba.

No need to mock, we are supposed to share thoughts and contribute in something. Sorry if I misunderstood you, I really don't want to thrown evidences like I actually own them. Of course, we are free to disagree.

I wasn't aware of these battle powers, interesting information. Discussing about kiris, I don't think SS Goku had a maximum of 150 million, since he would be weaker than Coola whose battle power in the same edition is 470 million. At normal form, Goku could even dodge Yakon's blows by sensing his movements and landing hits, but would need Gohan's help to avoid eventual damage and defeat him without Super Saiyan. I assume they had to be at least above 400 kiris or 20 million and close to 800 kiris or 40 million.

That's my point: the "official" information is clearly wrong. Because "official" doesn't necessarily mean "right" or well thought out. Goku obviously can't be just as strong as he is in Namek in the Buu arc, Cooler obviously can't be that strong unless the Movie 8 heroes are pre-ROSAT (or Broly/Cooler aren't in the same continuity, something which actually is officially supported), LSS Movie 8 Broly obviously is much weaker than SS3 Goku, etc.

By "trading blows evenly", I think it is like saying Hirudegarn's blows have effect similar of Goku's blows or in a simple way, they are about equal. Your description is what I have in my mind, they trade blows but, in a desproportional matter, Goku is the smaller one and can concentrate his blow in a weak point.

Then they're not trading blows evenly. Hirudegarn just continually punches Goku with Goku not fighting back. Then Goku uses a special technique and Hirudegarn instantly dies. That's not 'trading equally'.

[VegettoEX]

I've tossed this out there before, but:

Why does the Goku in DBZ Movie 13 have to be the same Goku as in DBZ Movie 12? Why can't their strength progressions be totally different? Why can't certain circumstances have resulted in different developments? Why do you have to rely precisely on events happening exactly as they did in the manga / TV series when you talk about what happens in the movies? Why can't they have had their own specific histories that resulted in different outcomes?

If both Janenba and Hildegarn are Toei creations, and Toei's own statement is that Janenba is stronger than Hildegarn, I don't see what the problem is with accepting that. You can dispute it, sure, and I encourage you to do so with civility and politeness toward your fellow fans, but I also don't see any reason to not just accept it as "fact" if you'd like to.

So the way Goku attacks/defends in DBZ Movie 12 is the way it is with Janenba and Janenba's responses are what they are. Great. Got it. Perfect.

The way Goku attacks/defends in DBZ Movie 13 is the way it is with Hildegarn and Hildegarn's responses are what they are. Great. Got it. Perfect.

So what? Is it even possible to compare? If you're going to make up scenarios and read into what little animation there is, why can't you say that maybe Janenba got temporarily caught off-guard? Was underestimating his opponent? Missed a chance? Thought about his old yummy bubble gum self for a second and yearned for the old days and took a hit he otherwise wouldn't have?

I mean, you're reading into so much as-is, you might as well just make up more information to suit your needs... which is pretty much how I see every strength-based discussion, anyway .

[RandomGuy96]

Why does the Goku in DBZ Movie 13 have to be the same Goku as in DBZ Movie 12?

He doesn't? But him not being the same just makes the comparison Toei made even more shaky.

Why can't their strength progressions be totally different? Why can't certain circumstances have resulted in different developments? Why do you have to rely precisely on events happening exactly as they did in the manga / TV series when you talk about what happens in the movies? Why can't they have had their own specific histories that resulted in different outcomes?

I prefer to try to see some sense in the movies, rather than just say "they're completely and totally different in every way rather than just these specific events, so nothing matters". Many, like Kaboom, do a similar thing: assume that the heroes in the movies are plucked from the arcs the movies are based on, or slightly above that if otherwise noted. So, for example, Movie 9 Gohan would be as strong as Cell Games Gohan. Same for the villains; another example: I see Janemba as being the film version of Fat/Pure Buu, and Hirudegarn being the film version of Super Buu/Buutenks. But the associated forms of Janemba are stronger than the associated forms of Buu, as that was stated, and the associated forms of Hirudegarn are also, because transformed Hildegarn has superior feats to Buutenks despite technically doing the same thing (like Super Janemba vs Pure Buu). If Movie 13 Goku isn't noted or implied to have a completely different history from every other version of Goku, I don't see why I should just randomly make one up for him, just to justify a statement from a now defunct website most likely written by someone low on the totem pole.

Besides, didn't D7 say that Movie 13 fit into being right after the Buu arc anyway?

If both Janenba and Hildegarn are Toei creations, and Toei's own statement is that Janenba is stronger than Hildegarn, I don't see what the problem is with accepting that. You can dispute it, sure, and I encourage you to do so with civility and politeness toward your fellow fans, but I also don't see any reason to not just accept it as "fact" if you'd like to.

There's nothing wrong with thinking Hirduegarn is weaker than Janemba per se (though I highly question such logic), but I feel it is disingenuous and misleading to use that old website as evidence, or to call it a "fact", or just preface it with "officially". Otherwise, what's wrong with me saying "It's a fact that 100% Freeza is stronger than all of the androids and the lower forms of Cell", or "it's a fact that LSS Broly is stronger than SS3 Goku" based on the "official" information from V-Jump?

So the way Goku attacks/defends in DBZ Movie 12 is the way it is with Janenba and Janenba's responses are what they are. Great. Got it. Perfect.

The way Goku attacks/defends in DBZ Movie 13 is the way it is with Hildegarn and Hildegarn's responses are what they are. Great. Got it. Perfect.

So what? Is it even possible to compare? If you're going to make up scenarios and read into what little animation there is, why can't you say that maybe Janenba got temporarily caught off-guard? Was underestimating his opponent? Missed a chance? Thought about his old yummy bubble gum self for a second and yearned for the old days and took a hit he otherwise wouldn't have?

Because I don't like to over analyze or make up excuses just to justify a website comment: I like to take things at face value unless otherwise noted. And, from what we saw, Goku could put up a fight against Janemba normally, while Hirudegarn one-shotted two people much stronger than Goku.

The comparison also assumes that the two fights were similar in how they went, which isn't the case at all. It's not like the statement implied Janemba was holding back or anything; it quite clearly said "Janemba beat Goku, Hirudegarn was even with Goku, Hirudegarn is weaker", ignoring that Movie 12 and Movie 13 Goku may not be the same, Hirudegarn didn't have Janemba's powers, and, most importantly, Goku didn't fight them the same way: he used a special technique that he didn't have against Janemba to beat the tail-less Hirudegarn. The way the statement is worded also pretty heavily implies whoever wrote this website is just interpreting what they saw, the same as any fan would, rather than making a definitive statement about something the audience doesn't know.

I mean, you're reading into so much as-is, you might as well just make up more information to suit your needs... which is pretty much how I see every strength-based discussion, anyway .

Huh? I'm just going by what I saw. Hirudegarn dispatched Gohan and Gotenks with one hit each, the much weaker Goku put up a semi-decent fight against Janemba, who couldn't dispatch him in one hit, therefore Janemba isn't that strong.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why does the Goku in DBZ Movie 13 have to be the same Goku as in DBZ Movie 12? Why can't their strength progressions be totally different? Why can't certain circumstances have resulted in different developments? Why do you have to rely precisely on events happening exactly as they did in the manga / TV series when you talk about what happens in the movies? Why can't they have had their own specific histories that resulted in different outcomes?

Personally, I believe that the movies (1-16 + PtEtSS) take place in the same continuity, and that the events happened as close to the anime as possible.

If both Janenba and Hildegarn are Toei creations, and Toei's own statement is that Janenba is stronger than Hildegarn, I don't see what the problem is with accepting that.

Well, Toei is a company, not a person. We don't know if the statement about Janenba > Hildegarn was made by the writer of the movie.

I still take the statement that Janenba is stronger than Hildegarn, but not because of his battle power, but because of his abilities & Hildegarn's weakness.

Goku didn't discover any weakness in Hirudegarn. Though I guess you could say that cutting off Hirudegarn's tail made him weaker, if you want to make sense of things.

I think that if Hildegarn had gotten weaker, someone would have said so. Which is why I go by the theory that Hildegarn's durability sucks, which is why he has such an ability to avoid damage.

[RandomGuy96]

I think that if Hildegarn had gotten weaker, someone would have said so. Which is why I go by the theory that Hildegarn's durability sucks, which is why he has such an ability to avoid damage.

That still doesn't explain basic things like Goku tanking a punch to the face from the same guy who defeated Gohan with a light smack of his tail.

Well, Toei is a company, not a person. We don't know if the statement about Janenba > Hildegarn was made by the writer of the movie.

Going by the writer, Hildegarn should be stronger.

[VegettoEX]

Otherwise, what's wrong with me saying "It's a fact that 100% Freeza is stronger than all of the androids and the lower forms of Cell", or "it's a fact that LSS Broly is stronger than SS3 Goku" based on the "official" information from V-Jump?

Go ahead. I don't know the information you're referencing, but if that stuff is literally stated exactly like that, then great. If you want to start accepting that into whatever continuity/canonicity you want to start accepting it into, that's awesome.

You seem to want to toss "official" in quotes as such when you don't like how it doesn't jive with what you've already come to accept. I don't know what to say other than... too bad?

You're not in charge of the franchise in any way. You can come up with all the theories you want, you can justify them as best you can, and if other people want to believe you, that's super awesome and I congratulate you for being an effective persuasive essayist.

If not, well, I guess it stinks to be in that position.

Well, Toei is a company, not a person. We don't know if the statement about Janenba > Hildegarn was made by the writer of the movie.

You really don't need to explain the production of the movies to me of all people .

So what would it take for you to be OK with it? Would it have to be the writer? The director? The producer?

Who does it take, and how much, for you to believe something? It was stated on a website. What if it was also stated in an interview? In a guide book? In the movie pamphlet? But never in the movie itself? What would it take? Would it ever matter?

Yusuke Watanabe says "Birusu" is a pun on one thing, Toriyama thought something else, and the overall production company behind the movie says something else, too. So which is it? Who do you believe? Which is it? Which is the truth?

Is the original ending to the manga the "real" one, or is the updated kanzenban ending? Toriyama personally drew them both. So which is it?

[RandomGuy96]

Go ahead. I don't know the information you're referencing, but if that stuff is literally stated exactly like that, then great. If you want to start accepting that into whatever continuity/canonicity you want to start accepting it into, that's awesome.

You seem to want to toss "official" in quotes as such when you don't like how it doesn't jive with what you've already come to accept. I don't know what to say other than... too bad?

You're not in charge of the franchise in any way. You can come up with all the theories you want, you can justify them as best you can, and if other people want to believe you, that's super awesome and I congratulate you for being an effective persuasive essayist.

If not, well, I guess it stinks to be in that position.

It didn't literally state that in so many words... it just indirectly stated it. I'm talking of the V-Jump issue which said Buu Saga SS Goku had a battle power of 150 million, which also indirectly states LSS Broly is stronger than SS3 Goku (since 8 x 150 million = 1.2 billion, and Broly was given a power of 1.4 billion) and Freeza is stronger than the lower forms of Cell, since 50% of CG Goku is stated to be superior to Grade II Vegeta, and Buu Saga Goku is stated to be greater than CG Goku, and Freeza's official level of 120 million is far above half of SS Goku. Yet, obviously such a thing is nonsensical, as it contradicts what we see in the actual source material.

No, it's not a matter of "not jiving with what I've come to already accept". I find that idea rather insulting. It's a matter of contradicting what's actually in the content, and what's stated by the writer ("every villain should at least be stronger than the last one" or something like that). If an 'official' source (like, say, an old now defunct website) said 19 was stronger than Pure Buu, because SS Goku lost to 19 but killed Pure Buu, would you accept it? Would you question it at all, or talk down to people who did?

"The pure Majin Buu is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since No. 19 from the previous storyline could beat back Super Saiyan Goku, who defeated Majin Buu, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of Goku's opponents."

Never stated I was. However, is whoever made this website also in charge? Do we know this claim came from the writer himself rather than just some advertising intern? I mean, looking at how the text is worded, it's pretty clear s/he's just making up his or her own interpretation of the respective fights rather than officially stating anything. There's nothing wrong with doubting some information you find to fishy and crafted by some unknown person, likely low on the totem pole, like Weekly Jump when it said that King Piccolo and Goku were stronger than Kami even though the latter could literally defeat one of them with his finger. Or that "DB Professor" from V-Jump, who said Yakon's battle power would be 40 million because Goku's would be 150 million.

[Herms]

Janemba is stronger than even the Genmajin Hirudegarn, since Hirudegarn was capable of trading blows evenly with Super Saiyan 3 Goku while Super Janemba could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku.I found this on DB wikia.

Ah, good to see that they're still stealing my translations without giving me credit. Oh, but at least they bothered to change "phantom majin Hildegarn" to their own preferred terminology, so I guess they're not being too lazy.