Why weren't the pre-DB Saiyans Stronger?

[Hitiro]

I see what you're saying, and that's true, but they could've probably been stronger if they trained, and to be honest, we don't see any of the pre-DB saiyans training except for Kid Vegeta on Saibamen. Add the gravity factor to that training, and I'm sure they could've made up for not having that many opponents. After all, Goku got oodles stronger due to Gravity Training.

Why would they train exactly? They are sent on missions to conquer planets under Freeza's name. They had no time for training. A perfect example is sending Goku to Earth. We know from the story that Goku never received any training prior to being sent to Earth. The Saiyans would literally be too busy to train due to Freeza barking orders at them. And the Kid Vegeta training on Saibamen never happened in the manga. Even if you do count that filler as being relevant we know Vegeta was a special case as Freeza kept Vegeta on his ship the whole time according to that training sequence we see to motivate King Vegeta to conquer planets. Even if we assume that the Saiyans had the off day to train it took Goku nearly a years worth of continuous training to get to having a battle power of around 8,000. None of the Saiyans would simply have that amount of time to spend training.

[Darkron2151]

Why would they train exactly? They are sent on missions to conquer planets under Freeza's name. They had no time for training. A perfect example is sending Goku to Earth. We know from the story that Goku never received any training prior to being sent to Earth. The Saiyans would literally be too busy to train due to Freeza barking orders at them. And the Kid Vegeta training on Saibamen never happened in the manga. Even if you do count that filler as being relevant we know Vegeta was a special case as Freeza kept Vegeta on his ship the whole time according to that training sequence we see to motivate King Vegeta to conquer planets. Even if we assume that the Saiyans had the off day to train it took Goku nearly a years worth of continuous training to get to having a battle power of around 8,000. None of the Saiyans would simply have that amount of time to spend training.

And how do you know they were too busy exactly? As far as pre-DB Saiyans go, there's not much really explained about them in the manga except for Raditz' and King Kai's story, and even those was really blunt. Plus, Goku couldn't have been trained before going to Earth because he's literally an infant, so I don't see how that's an example of anything other than the Saiyans didn't even want to bother conquering Earth themselves so they sent a child to grow up on the planet and then conquer it via power and full moon. As for the Bardock Special, that's probably the biggest source of info on the Planet Vegeta Saiyans that we got, other than the almighty "manga". So if we take that into perspective, we can see how the Saiyans operated, especially in their free time:
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They don't seem that busy

And as for the time it takes to train, Goku went from 8,000 to 90,000 with just Gravity Training and Senzu in only 6 days. Even if the Saiyans don't have Senzu, they have the healing tanks, and they're pretty quick at healing injuries as well. Plus they can just set the gravity settings to #x Planet Vegeta's gravity, and Goku started out with only 20x Earth's Gravity so the Saiyans would only have to do 2x their Gravity in order to first see results, and then move up from there.

[coola]

Maybe it was Freeza, who made sure, that Saiyans won`t get very strong?

[Hitiro]

And how do you know they were too busy exactly? As far as pre-DB Saiyans go, there's not much really explained about them in the manga except for Raditz' and King Kai's story, and even those was really blunt. Plus, Goku couldn't have been trained before going to Earth because he's literally an infant, so I don't see how that's an example of anything other than the Saiyans didn't even want to bother conquering Earth themselves so they sent a child to grow up on the planet and then conquer it via power and full moon. As for the Bardock Special, that's probably the biggest source of info on the Planet Vegeta Saiyans that we got, other than the almighty "manga". So if we take that into perspective, we can see how the Saiyans operated, especially in their free time:
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They don't seem that busy

And as for the time it takes to train, Goku went from 8,000 to 90,000 with just Gravity Training and Senzu in only 6 days. Even if the Saiyans don't have Senzu, they have the healing tanks, and they're pretty quick at healing injuries as well. Plus they can just set the gravity settings to #x Planet Vegeta's gravity, and Goku started out with only 20x Earth's Gravity so the Saiyans would only have to do 2x their Gravity in order to first see results, and then move up from there.

Is it ever said that they do train? Not really. And apart from anime filler we never see the Saiyan's do anything. Goku was, I believe, 3 years old when he was sent to Earth according to Dragon Ball Minus. Gohan started training at 3. Goku never received training before he left for Earth. So I do see why it is an example. You use the Bardock Special as the biggest source of info but it is all disregarded with Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball Minus story. And why does them eating have anything to do with them having time to train?

Saiyans need to eat, and from what we get from the manga they have a very large metabolism as we see from Goku, Vegeta, Goten and Gohan. Don't think we see Trunks eating like they do but he probably does. So the Saiyan's eating is just a thing the could be doing before they go off on their next mission. Not really "free time". Do you consider a lunch break during your job "free time"? It is just a break to replenish your energy before you go back to what you were doing and that is exactly what the Saiyans are probably doing here. No Saiyan is going to go off and train during this time as they don't know when their next meal will be considering they have to be sent away to conquer a new planet. Also, I don't see what training for 6 days has to do with the Saiyans. You realise during all that time Goku was slowly increasing the gravity to 100x Earths gravity? Of course he is going to have incredibly gains. 6 days of getting used to 100x Earths gravity is going to be much more of an increase than 6 days of 10x Earths gravity. And Senzu's offer recovery instantly. Goku took nearly an hour to recover in the medical tank. Saiyans also don't have gravity machines. When is it ever said that they do? The gravity machine was Dr. Briefs design, not Saiyan design. And it is never stated otherwise.

[Luso Saiyan]

I'm not talking about being weak compared to other species, but in GENERAL.

The difference being?

[Hitiro]

I don't see why you would consider them weak exactly, Pre-Z there are no races apart from the Namekians as far as we know that are actually on par with the Saiyans. Freeza and his father are freaks compared to their race apparently, so is Ginyu and possibly Freeza's other right-hand men. The rest of Freeza's grunts wouldn't put up a fight against the Saiyans. Sure they aren't strong when you compare them to actual villains during the Z storyline but as I said most of the characters who are actually strong are mutant versions of their species. You could go so far as to say that Piccolo also falls into this category as Guru said that if Piccolo were fused with Kami he wouldn't have lost to the Saiyans. And originally Piccolo was supposed to be of the Dragon Clan, not the Warrior clan. So the fact that he was of a weaker constitution to the other Namekians and apparently still wouldn't have a trouble with a Saiyan really points to him being freakishly weird compared to normal Dragon Clan types. The only notable Warriors we see of the Namekian race are a couple of 10,000's and Nail with his 42,000. The fact that Piccolo should be above 10,000 as a Dragon Clan type shows he isn't a normal Namekian.

When you say that in "general" they are weak that is only because the characters around them are freaks of nature that shouldn't be included when you talk about what is strong. The fact that the Saiyans were used by Freeza to conquer planets is reason enough to consider them a valuable asset. Especially when you consider they send individual Saiyans to planets, like Goku, to conquer them. And those are their weakest children too. I can't imagine what their strong ones are like with conquering planets.

[FoolsGil]

@ Hitiro
You want to call Freeza a mutant, fine. The Ginyus even call themselves mutants, fine. But you can't say that every specie in Freezas's army that can slap around Raditz or Nappa is a mutant. Freeza would not be able to get anything done if all of his men could lose to Raditz, and same with Nappa. Chances are Nappa only works with Vegeta, so what about those potent worlds that have warriors higher than 1200? Nothing will get done if there are no solders equal to Nappa's strength or higher. And Not even Cui, Dodoria, or Zarbon should be called mutants because they can whoop Vegeta. Is it so hard to believe that the ones who are stronger than the Saiyans actually worked hard for their power?

I point out again, The Great Ape forms are their true source of power, thus in a way, being as strong as Vegeta says, and as weak as they appear to be.

[Hitiro]

You want to call Freeza a mutant, fine. The Ginyus even call themselves mutants, fine. But you can't say that every specie in Freezas's army that can slap around Raditz or Nappa is a mutant. Freeza would not be able to get anything done if all of his men could lose to Raditz, and same with Nappa. Chances are Nappa only works with Vegeta, so what about those potent worlds that have warriors higher than 1200? Nothing will get done if there are no solders equal to Nappa's strength or higher. And Not even Cui, Dodoria, or Zarbon should be called mutants because they can whoop Vegeta. Is it so hard to believe that the ones who are stronger than the Saiyans actually worked hard for their power?

I point out again, The Great Ape forms are their true source of power, thus in a way, being as strong as Vegeta says, and as weak as they appear to be.

Gohan and Kuririn could defeat Freeza's henchmen prior to their unlocked potential. Zarbon noted they were both about 1,500. So I don't think Raditz would have trouble. The only ones with truly exceptional strength are Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon. It is debatable whether they are mutants like Freeza and the Ginyu force or they obtained their strength through work. I believe that they are mutants. Nothing really contradicts my opinion and in my opinion, apart from Dodoria, they don't seem to have the right attitudes for training. Regardless, apart from Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon none of the Saiyans would have a problem fighting against Freeza's henchmen.

[FoolsGil]

Gohan and Kuririn could defeat Freeza's henchmen prior to their unlocked potential. Zarbon noted they were both about 1,500. So I don't think Raditz would have trouble. The only ones with truly exceptional strength are Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon. It is debatable whether they are mutants like Freeza and the Ginyu force or they obtained their strength through work. I believe that they are mutants. Nothing really contradicts my opinion and in my opinion, apart from Dodoria, they don't seem to have the right attitudes for training. Regardless, apart from Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon none of the Saiyans would have a problem fighting against Freeza's henchmen.

You're right that what you're saying doesn't contradict anything but...

Krillin and Gohan on their own took out two henchmen, so you automatically assume that save Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, The Ginyus, and Freeza, All of Freeza's forces are less than or equal to 1500? You don't assume that Freeza would have weak minions, even weaker than normal? Because that's quite a gap in power if all your mooks are either at 1500 or less or 18,000 or more, with Nappa being the lone ranger at 4000-6000. What about the planets with warriors that are stronger than your 1500s, but are weaker than your 18000s?

[Hitiro]

Gohan and Kuririn could defeat Freeza's henchmen prior to their unlocked potential. Zarbon noted they were both about 1,500. So I don't think Raditz would have trouble. The only ones with truly exceptional strength are Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon. It is debatable whether they are mutants like Freeza and the Ginyu force or they obtained their strength through work. I believe that they are mutants. Nothing really contradicts my opinion and in my opinion, apart from Dodoria, they don't seem to have the right attitudes for training. Regardless, apart from Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon none of the Saiyans would have a problem fighting against Freeza's henchmen.

You're right that what you're saying doesn't contradict anything but...

Krillin and Gohan on their own took out two henchmen, so you automatically assume that save Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, The Ginyus, and Freeza, All of Freeza's forces are less than or equal to 1500? You don't assume that Freeza would have weak minions, even weaker than normal? Because that's quite a gap in power if all your mooks are either at 1500 or less or 18,000 or more, with Nappa being the lone ranger at 4000-6000. What about the planets with warriors that are stronger than your 1500s, but are weaker than your 18000s?

Considering the Saiyans subjugated many worlds in Freeza's name Freeza would have a huge army of soldiers to use. Doesn't really matter if they are lower than 1,500 if there are thousands, if not millions of them. A war isn't won by individuals it is won by superior numbers. Of course it helps to have fighting power but if you have enough warriors that can easily be reduced. Not that I'm saying all of Freeza's forces are lower than 1,500. But I would assume a majority are. And we don't know if Raditz is on the lower end of the low class Saiyan or on the higher end. I would assume the former. I would also assume that Nappa is on the lower end of being a mid class Saiyan. As there is a huge gap between him and Vegeta. As far as we know the only planet that fits into that category is Namek. I still think the majority of Freeza's forces only come around the low ranks of Saiyan's though. In all eventuality the fighting force Freeza has now apart from the exceptions we already know were all captured by the Saiyans. So therefore Freeza's army < Planet Vegeta's forces. Of course there will be planets where the elites had to sent to take them over. According to Akira Toriyama:

To be honest, I haven’t thought it through that far, but Bardock is a low-class warrior. Although even saying that, almost all [Saiyans] were low-class warriors, and there were only about 10 mid-class warriors. And when you get to the elite warriors, there’s only King Vegeta and Prince Vegeta. Bardock is in the upper ranks as far as low-class warriors go, but he isn’t able to become a mid-class warrior.
This rank is determined by an innate latent battle power, but naturally, if their battle power rises greatly afterward, they can be promoted.

There are only 10 mid-class warriors and the rest are low-class warriors. So I doubt there are many planets that were conquered which exceeded the strength of these individuals otherwise they wouldn't be useful. Oozaru form or otherwise.

[Darkron2151]

The difference being?

The Saiyans had a reputation of being a warrior race and made up a strong part of Freeza's Army. So they're strong compared to other species or soldiers. BUT, most of them had a power level that didn't even pass 2,000, which we know is really weak in comparison to what we see in the series.

[Kamiccolo9]

The difference being?

The Saiyans had a reputation of being a warrior race and made up a strong part of Freeza's Army. So they're strong compared to other species or soldiers. BUT, most of them had a power level that didn't even pass 2,000, which we know is really weak in comparison to what we see in the series.

By "most," you mean Raditz. I don't think that's enough to judge the average strength of a Saiyan warrior.

[xmysticgohanx]

Don' know if it's been said but with Toriyama saying Saiyan children > Jaco, I really don't think the Saiyans are weak.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goku and Vegeta are prodigies. Which makes Gohan, Goten, and Trunks prodigies as well.

The only other saiyans that gain enormous strength are Tullece, who eats a superfruit to get his power, Broli, who is a mutant freak of nature, and Bardock, who is...uh...um.

[Rocketman]

The only other saiyans that gain enormous strength are Tullece, who eats a superfruit to get his power, Broli, who is a mutant freak of nature, and Bardock, who

Looks like Goku and therefore gets transitive Toei Goku powers.

[Cursed Lemon]

Yeah! That's it!

[Luso Saiyan]

which we know is really weak in comparison to what we see in the series.

Even if true (and you're only using Raditz as an example, which is limited by default), only "an handful" of non-Saiyan characters were portrayed stronger than them, which when taken into prespective, doesn't make them weak at all.

[Darkron2151]

By "most," you mean Raditz. I don't think that's enough to judge the average strength of a Saiyan warrior.

Well, in the daizenshuu, Raditz' battle power is depicted as the average Lowest-level soldier, and that makes sense judging from how Freeza's soldiers reacted to power levels of only 1,000 or so during the fight at the Namekian village. So compared to Raditz, most of the Saiyan race, which are Low-Class, are probably higher than that, probably at the 2,000-2,500 range. Not much higher though, because Nappa, being the "Commander of the entire Saiyan Army" (Dub Line) and a member of the Elite Warrior Class, has been shown to have a power level of only 4,000.

Even if true (and you're only using Raditz as an example, which is limited by default), only "an handful" of non-Saiyan characters were portrayed stronger than them, which when taken into prespective, doesn't make them weak at all.

Raditz is being used as a bare minimum (plus he's the only Low-class example we got), but given the fact that most of the Saiyan race is Low-Class, and Nappa, being the "Elite Warrior Class" Saiyan, is shown to be at 4,000, that doesn't leave much room for the rest of the Saiyans. And just because only "a handful" of non-Saiyan characters are stronger than the Saiyans, doesn't mean the Saiyan Race is also strong because only a couple people outclass them. Yes, the Saiyans are strong in comparison to the rest of Freeza's army, but that's not the point here. With the examples of Raditz and Nappa, we can estimate that most of the Saiyan race was only at 2,000-2,500. That's strong compared to other species of people, but again, not the point. As we see in the early part of the series that those levels are absolute trash compared to what the Saiyans, and even the non-saiyans, were getting to, because of either specialized training which can pretty much equate to Gravity Training, Zenkais (both of which the Saiyans could've had), or both. So all that bares the question as to "why"? Why weren't the Saiyans stronger than what they were, even though we see they had the potential too, via genetics or technology? That's the main question of this Topic (probably should change the name of the thread ).

[Darkron2151]

Name of Thread has been changed!!

[Kaboom]

Don' know if it's been said but with Toriyama saying Saiyan children > Jaco, I really don't think the Saiyans are weak.

I think you've got that backwards. If I remember correctly, it was said that adult Saiyans are too strong for the Galactic Patrol, so they have to be dealt with while they're still infants or kids.