Why weren't the pre-DB Saiyans Stronger?

[Darkron2151]

I'm not talking about the the Saiyans we all know from the Z Crew, but the entire Saiyan people that were destroyed by Freeza. Granted, according to their status as a warrior race, they were useful soldiers in Freeza's army, but in general, they weren't that strong at all, even if they probably could've. Let's look at a few things:

• 1. Saiyan Classes and Power
  
  As we already know, the Saiyans are split into different classes based on their power levels and background. There's low-class, Saiyan Elites, and the Super Elites (Vegeta calls himself this). Low-class examples would be Raditz and Bardock's crew (excluding Bardock), each with a power level from 1,500-2,000 based on how the crew got crushed by Dodoria's elite soldiers. And that's even dwarfed by the Namekian Warriors. Saiyan Elites however are much stronger. Nappa, being a good example, arguably has a power level of 4,000-6,000, and he was Commander of the entire Saiyan Army (Dub Line). Now royalty is a different story. King Vegeta can be ranged at about 10,000-11,000 and Vegeta, as a child, was even stronger than that (let's say 12,000). That's all strongand all compared to Freeza's soldiers, but not to the likes of Dodoria, Zarbon, and especially not compared to the Ginyu Force. Heck, even Cui was rivaling the "Super Elite" and completely dwarfed the rest of the Saiyan race, and he's not even important.

• 
  2. Saiyan Potential
  
  We see throughout the beginning of DBZ to the Freeza saga that Non-Super Saiyans can still gain HUGE amounts of power, and I'm not just talking about Zenkais (Even if they played a BIG role). Goku went from less than 1,000 to 8,000 in over 100 days of 10x Earth's Gravity and THEN went from a bit over 8,000 to 90,000 in power just from doing up to 100x Earth's Gravity training in just 6 DAYS!!! Less than a week of training and he makes the Ginyu Force look like chumps. If Goku, who was born as a Low-class Saiyan, can do all this, why couldn't the rest of the Saiyans? What, did the Saiyans not train at all? Plus I'm pretty sure their technology was advanced enough to make Gravity Chambers or Training Rooms. Planet Vegeta already has a Gravity level 10x greater than Earth's, so they already had an advantage over Goku's training conditions on Earth.

So what's the deal with these darn Saiyans and why weren't they outclassing Ginyu-level people just from training til' they drop?

[sekzee]

The answer is simple...

It is a society based on the power they are born with, not earned.

[Saiga]

Freeza's soldiers are mutants that possess abnormally high battle power. That's why the ones we see outmatch the Saiyans so much. The regular soldiers were killed in one blow by Gohan and Kuririn at around 1,500 - same battle power as Raditz.

Goku and Vegeta are rather special among pure Saiyans, so it's not fair to hold other Saiyans to their standard. It also took them until their 20s before they started really hitting high levels of power, and that was due to some very unique circumstances and larger than normal near death power ups.

[Rocketman]

A couple of reasons:

1. Saiyans are already used to 10x Earth's gravity. Gravity training won't be as effective for them until it hits the absurd levels Vegeta pushed it to when training for the Androids.

2. Saiyans don't have the Senzu. Goku's six days of training could only be done because he could insta-heal himself. Without the Senzu, training yourself to near-death means months in the hospital or a trip to Freeza's healing tanks.

3. Saiyans got killed a lot. Even Goku would've died at a mere 416 without the Dragonballs.

[Darkron2151]

Goku and Vegeta are rather special among pure Saiyans, so it's not fair to hold other Saiyans to their standard. It also took them until their 20s before they started really hitting high levels of power, and that was due to some very unique circumstances and larger than normal near death power ups.

I see what you're saying about Vegeta, but how is Goku in any way "special"? Heck, for the first 20 years of his life, he only hit a bit above 400, 900 if you think the Kamehameha was his "max power". Then he did specialized training with King Kai, which brought him well above Nappa, but still not touching Vegeta. What was truly miraculous was his gains from Gravity Training in a 6 day period, and any Saiyan could've done that given time and resources.

Saiyans don't have the Senzu. Goku's six days of training could only be done because he could insta-heal himself. Without the Senzu, training yourself to near-death means months in the hospital or a trip to Freeza's healing tanks.

Very true. But I think the Saiyans had more time than 6 days to train, heal, then train again. Plus the Healing Tanks are pretty quick as far as healing. Though nothing compared to Senzu, it's still highly effective and I'm sure they could've utilized it given more resources to build more.

[Saiga]

Goku and Vegeta are rather special among pure Saiyans, so it's not fair to hold other Saiyans to their standard. It also took them until their 20s before they started really hitting high levels of power, and that was due to some very unique circumstances and larger than normal near death power ups.

I see what you're saying about Vegeta, but how is Goku in any way "special"? Heck, for the first 20 years of his life, he only hit a bit above 400, 900 if you think the Kamehameha was his "max power". Then he did specialized training with King Kai, which brought him well above Nappa, but still not touching Vegeta. What was truly miraculous was his gains from Gravity Training in a 6 day period, and any Saiyan could've done that given time and resources.

He was weak due to growing up on a weak planet, though. And Goku is repeatedly stated to be special, even by fellow Saiyan Vegeta. There's no evidence that other Saiyans in his conditions would excel like he did.

Think about it this way: with only 1 year in conditions Saiyans grew up in, he reached a battle power above all but Vegeta.

[Darkron2151]

Think about it this way: with only 1 year in conditions Saiyans grew up in, he reached a battle power above all but Vegeta.

True, but keep in mind, the enhanced gravity was only one of the many factors that were attributed to training on King Kai's planet. The humans trained there for over 100 days and they skyrocketed to arguably higher than Ginyu Force-level. Does that mean they're special too?

[Saiga]

Think about it this way: with only 1 year in conditions Saiyans grew up in, he reached a battle power above all but Vegeta.

True, but keep in mind, the enhanced gravity was only one of the many factors that were attributed to training on King Kai's planet. The humans trained there for over 100 days and they skyrocketed to arguably higher than Ginyu Force-level. Does that mean they're special too?

No, because I don't believe they reached such a level.

[Darkron2151]

No, because I don't believe they reached such a level.

I have Tenshinhan capping at 60,000 during Mecha Freeza saga. When I say "Ginyu Force-level", I don't mean Ginyu's level in particular. 60,000 is half a Ginyu, but that's sure as heck stronger than the likes of Recoome. And with that, going from 1,830 to 60,000 from 200+ days of King Kai's training and then settling down on Earth is a pretty big leap. That sounds pretty "special" to me . Unless, which is what I'm getting at, is that King kai's training is FAR MORE than just training in an environment 10x Earth's Gravity, and that it is the Training that is "special" rather than the recipients (Goku, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, etc.).

And Goku is repeatedly stated to be special, even by fellow Saiyan Vegeta.

He is also repeatedly stated to be a low-class by fellow Saiyan Vegeta, and Vegeta only calls Goku special whenever Goku surpasses him in strength, which is often . Plus Goku get's Main Character Hax .

[Saiga]

I don't have any of the humans reaching that high from the Kaio's training, specifically because they're not special. I think it was Zephyr who made a good point against them even reaching 30,000 in their lifetimes. Your 60,000 is something you came up with yourself, so it can't really support the humans having a big leap.

Now I do think Kaio's training is better than just training on Planet Vegeta is, but not far more so. Otherwise I don't think Kaio would have compared it to Planet Vegeta as one of the reasons it's special. The 10x gravity is definitely meant to be a big part of it.

[Darkron2151]

I don't have any of the humans reaching that high from the Kaio's training, specifically because they're not special. I think it was Zephyr who made a good point against them even reaching 30,000 in their lifetimes. Your 60,000 is something you came up with yourself, so it can't really support the humans having a big leap.

Oh, there are PLENTY of people out there that have them higher than 60,000, so it's not just me. And your or Zephyr's or anyone's 30,000 is just as opinionated and fan-created as my 60,000, regardless of it's "good points". Plus Krillin was shown in the V-Jump to have a power of 75,000, and that's just the battle against Freeza let alone in his lifetime. Why have the others so weak in comparison for no reason?

Now I do think Kaio's training is better than just training on Planet Vegeta is, but not far more so. Otherwise I don't think Kaio would have compared it to Planet Vegeta as one of the reasons it's special. The 10x gravity is definitely meant to be a big part of it.

Both cases of Goku's comfirmed Gravity Training (King Kai's Planet and Journey to Namek) resulted with Goku getting multi-fold stronger. So yes, gravity does play a big part in it. But my point is, the only things that are "special" about Goku is that he's the main character and he has Saiyan blood like all the other Low-class Saiyans on Planet Vegeta. So if he can get those results from something as trivial as Gravity Training, then the other Saiyans could probably get AT LEAST half that, and that's still a fair amount.

[Saiga]

Oh, there are PLENTY of people out there that have them higher than 60,000, so it's not just me. And your or Zephyr's or anyone's 30,000 is just as opinionated and fan-created as my 60,000, regardless of it's "good points". Plus Krillin was shown in the V-Jump to have a power of 75,000, and that's just the battle against Freeza let alone in his lifetime. Why have the others so weak in comparison for no reason?

I know it's not just you, that doesn't make it any more believable. Having them weaker than Kuririn isn't "for no reason" it's because none of them received the Guru's power up which is literally the only reason Kuririn got that strong. And not everyone even uses the V-Jump power levels.

But that's really missing the point of what I'm saying - you used your battle power of 60,000 to show that my logic would make the humans special as well, but I don't use that so it's completely irrelevant to the logic I used.

Both cases of Goku's comfirmed Gravity Training (King Kai's Planet and Journey to Namek) resulted with Goku getting multi-fold stronger. So yes, gravity does play a big part in it. But my point is, the only things that are "special" about Goku is that he's the main character and he has Saiyan blood like all the other Low-class Saiyans on Planet Vegeta. So if he can get those results from something as trivial as Gravity Training, then the other Saiyans could probably get AT LEAST half that, and that's still a fair amount.

No, that's not what the story tells us. Goku isn't special like every other Saiyan, he's special even to other Saiyans because he's supposed to be a fighting genius which translates to developing in strength rapidly. It's never said anywhere that other Saiyans can do exactly what Goku did, or even get close. Vegeta during his time before the series is a far better benchmark than anything else, and 18,000 is simply unattainable to most Saiyans.

[Darkron2151]

I know it's not just you, that doesn't make it any more believable. Having them weaker than Kuririn isn't "for no reason" it's because none of them received the Guru's power up which is literally the only reason Kuririn got that strong. And not everyone even uses the V-Jump power levels.

But that's really missing the point of what I'm saying - you used your battle power of 60,000 to show that my logic would make the humans special as well, but I don't use that so it's completely irrelevant to the logic I used.

No, that's not what the story tells us. Goku isn't special like every other Saiyan, he's special even to other Saiyans because he's supposed to be a fighting genius which translates to developing in strength rapidly. It's never said anywhere that other Saiyans can do exactly what Goku did, or even get close. Vegeta during his time before the series is a far better benchmark than anything else, and 18,000 is simply unattainable to most Saiyans.

My point is that they were NOT special, which that their rapid growth was acquired solely from the gravity training. Goku included. Plus, just because your logic works for you, doesn't make it correct. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but your levels is still conjecture like mine, so it doesn't make mine any less plausible. There's also strong evidence saying that the humans are much stronger than you think, and King Kai's training is a big reason why. Even if we say that Tien went to 15,000 due to the 200+ days of training from King Kai, that's still a big increase from 1,830. And if someone like Tenshinhan can do that from Gravity training, I'm sure the genetically-gifted Saiyans can also. And 18,000 isn't "unattainable" as you say. Bardock was close to 10,000 due to his battle experience and Zenkais, and he's still a Low-class. If you put Gravity Training into the mix, 18,000 is quite plausible. And you're right, Goku knows how to train, hence why he gets better results than Vegeta, who while is still considered a "fighting genius" and also trains hard, doesn't really train efficiently. But even with that, Vegeta still increases his power level by the hundreds of thousands from simple Gravity Training. And if the "Super elite" can do that, I'm sure the minor Elites or even the Low-Class can gain the tens of thousands.

[Saiga]

But they simply can't be used as an example - we don't know how strong they are coming back. Ten could have gone from 1830 to 1831 for all we know, the story says absolutely nothing which makes them useless as examples of whether Saiyans could do the same.

Bardock being close to 10,000 is only in that special and contradicts numerous things. I'm not saying 18,000 would be unattainable with the improved gravity training, but it showed what the Saiyans were like without. A battle power of 18,000 was far beyond them and there's not a whole lot of evidence to say that just upping the gravity another 10x to 100x would be able to give them Namek arc like results.

[Hitiro]

Why would the Saiyan's be strong though? They never had to fight anybody stronger than themselves really. I mean the only race we know would present a challenge to the Saiyans would be the Namekians. Also, I'm curious what the average lifespan of a Saiyan was pre-Dragon Ball because I would have thought a lot of them would have died young. Bardock quite possibly had Goku around the same age Goku had Gohan. Which was early 20's. And then he was killed off with every other Saiyan. Saiyans who went to take worlds probably died every so often while trying to take them. But yeah, I would say not having a challenging race to boost them to higher levels would be an attributing factor to why the Saiyan's were not that strong. Vegeta only got strong after his beating from Goku after all. Had Goku not been much of a challenge do you think he would put up much of a fight on Namek? He tossed Cui and Dodoria to the wayside only because of the boost he got from fighting against Goku. Would have been a much different story had Goku not offered any resistance.

And the only guarantee we have about the 10 times gravity is a Saiyan would be around 1,000+. The results vary heavily as Vegeta was 10,000+ as a child.

[FoolsGil]

It's not that the Saiyans are weak. It's just that we believed Vegeta's elitist crap. Plus in a way, they are as powerful as Vegeta led us to believe. Their Great Ape Forms are the (normal)Saiyan's true power. Vegeta before he met Goku could take on Ginyu is his Great Ape form. 10x boost for transforming.

[rereboy]

Saiyans weak? The average member of the species is probably MUCH stronger than the average being of all the species in the universe. That's why they conquered planets. They aren't weak at all.

[Darkron2151]

Saiyans weak? The average member of the species is probably MUCH stronger than the average being of all the species in the universe. That's why they conquered planets. They aren't weak at all.

I'm not talking about being weak compared to other species, but in GENERAL. Regardless if they're stronger than other species in the universe, the Low-class power levels are still below the 2,000 range, and from what we saw with different training methods in the Gravity Chamber and also Zenkais, they have the potential to be so much more.

Why would the Saiyan's be strong though? They never had to fight anybody stronger than themselves really. I mean the only race we know would present a challenge to the Saiyans would be the Namekians. Also, I'm curious what the average lifespan of a Saiyan was pre-Dragon Ball because I would have thought a lot of them would have died young. Bardock quite possibly had Goku around the same age Goku had Gohan. Which was early 20's. And then he was killed off with every other Saiyan. Saiyans who went to take worlds probably died every so often while trying to take them. But yeah, I would say not having a challenging race to boost them to higher levels would be an attributing factor to why the Saiyan's were not that strong. Vegeta only got strong after his beating from Goku after all. Had Goku not been much of a challenge do you think he would put up much of a fight on Namek? He tossed Cui and Dodoria to the wayside only because of the boost he got from fighting against Goku. Would have been a much different story had Goku not offered any resistance.

I see what you're saying, and that's true, but they could've probably been stronger if they trained, and to be honest, we don't see any of the pre-DB saiyans training except for Kid Vegeta on Saibamen. Add the gravity factor to that training, and I'm sure they could've made up for not having that many opponents. After all, Goku got oodles stronger due to Gravity Training.

[Rocketman]

Maybe the Saiyans didn't care about getting stronger. They're already able to beat up on the whole universe, getting stronger would just lead to boredom as they start crushing everything with ease.

The whole "get stronger for the sake of getting stronger" is an Earth martial arts philosophy, not something the Saiyans believed in.

[Darkron2151]

Maybe the Saiyans didn't care about getting stronger. They're already able to beat up on the whole universe, getting stronger would just lead to boredom as they start crushing everything with ease.

The whole "get stronger for the sake of getting stronger" is an Earth martial arts philosophy, not something the Saiyans believed in.

Didn't Cell say something about wanting power for power's sake and that it could just be from the cells of both Freeza's family or the Saiyans?