Fusion needs to become obsolete.

[Cursed Lemon]

You are talking about putting every single fight in a vacuum with no continuity, and turning bad guys into video game bosses; "find the weak spot".

What if Bulma made a "negative moon wave machine" and caused any saiyan with a tail to lose all his power, make Vegeta harmless?

What if Goku's Earth bacteria sickened Freeza's body and killed him?

What if Cell actually permanently died when Goku teleported him away? No Kamehameha showdown.

What if Majin Bu was defeated by being sealed in a magical coffee thermos?

You say you're not about cutting the fighting out, but you're definitely saying (or implying, whether you realize or not) that fighting ought not to be the solution. Otherwise, the difference between what you want and what actually goes on in DBZ collapses entirely.

And like I said, DBZ characters are not really good at anything else besides fighting, because the bad guys wreak havoc through PHYSICAL VIOLENCE. That's what they are - big physical bullies.

If you make the enemy a giant computer taking over the world through an information war, what the heck are any of the DB heroes going to do about that?

[Kamiccolo9]

You are talking about putting every single fight in a vacuum with no continuity, and turning bad guys into video game bosses; "find the weak spot".

What if Bulma made a "negative moon wave machine" and caused any saiyan with a tail to lose all his power, make Vegeta harmless?

What if Goku's Earth bacteria sickened Freeza's body and killed him?

What if Cell actually permanently died when Goku teleported him away? No Kamehameha showdown.

What if Majin Bu was defeated by being sealed in a magical coffee thermos?

You say you're not about cutting the fighting out, but you're definitely saying (or implying, whether you realize or not) that fighting ought not to be the solution. Otherwise, the difference between what you want and what actually goes on in DBZ collapses entirely.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying. Like, at all.

[trick007z]

Because you're talking about this like we could do absolutely anything at all to the show and it would all work out perfectly because you just want it to.

You cannot separate DBZ and "punching people in the face". It would be like trying to dissociate Yugioh and card games.

I could very easily say, "why doesn't Yugi just walk over there and punch his opponent in the jaw," and I would literally be just as right to feel that way as you are now. Because I'm saying it in an overarching sense with respect to just one aspect of the show, and I don't have to actually delve into the specifics of what kind of precedent that sets for future conflicts, how that typecasts certain characters, how the premise and theme of the show is affected, etc. etc.

It's a completely irresponsible point of view unless you're making an effort to look at the big picture.

Not really. They've done it plenty of times before. I also think you're not really getting the argument. It's not that there shouldn't be fights. It's that the fight doesn't need to be "this guy is way stronger than everybody we ever faced, we need to train/transform/fuse" etc. Make the threat of the opponent unique enough that they have to use strategy rather than upping strength. It's repetitive and boring. BOG worked because despite the transformation, Goku lost. It was fresh.

They are already so strong that it doesn't mean anything when they get stronger. It was interesting when the Saiyans were making the Earth shake and tear apart or when Frieza could blow up planets. But after that it was just character x can beat up character y, but when y transforms he beats x. It doesn't have that sense of awe.

[Cursed Lemon]

First of all, if you're trying to tell me that the DBZ formula has a shelf life, then...duh. Literally the only place it has left to go is to get into weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense like American comics do.

Secondly, I get the argument perfectly. But explain to me how BoG deviated from the normal course of DBZ. It was Broly 2.0 except Goku lost; and you know what happened? The entire matter was played off in a comedic and trivial fashion. That movie completely lacked an edge, there was zero desperation. It was happy-go-lucky nu-Dragonball in every sense, and that is exactly what I am talking about when I say that when you remove the morbidity of sheer physical violence, you cut a piece of what Dragonball is completely out of the picture.

I reiterate, other characters were made useless because they were too weak. Making them useful again involves completely changing the premise of how DB conflicts are handled. You cannot, CANNOT find a way to make Ten Shinhan useful again without invalidating Goku and Vegeta.

[Kamiccolo9]

First of all, if you're trying to tell me that the DBZ formula has a shelf life, then...duh. Literally the only place it has left to go is to get into weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense like American comics do.

Secondly, I get the argument perfectly. But explain to me how BoG deviated from the normal course of DBZ. It was Broly 2.0 except Goku lost; and you know what happened? The entire matter was played off in a comedic and trivial fashion. That movie completely lacked an edge, there was zero desperation. It was happy-go-lucky nu-Dragonball in every sense, and that is exactly what I am talking about when I say that when you remove the morbidity of sheer physical violence, you cut a piece of what Dragonball is completely out of the picture.

I reiterate, other characters were made useless because they were too weak. Making them useful again involves completely changing the premise of how DB conflicts are handled. You cannot, CANNOT find a way to make Ten Shinhan useful again without invalidating Goku and Vegeta.

I fail to see how a series with slug aliens that create glass balls capable of summoning magical wish-granting dragons that are the envy of galactic emperors and royalty from other planets, that has literal embodiments of pure evil (including one spawned from one of the aforementioned alien slug people) , and ends with a battle with a pure evil wad of bubblegum isn't "weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense."

As far as characters being too weak, Mr. Satan saved the universe. Yajirobe saved everyone from Oozaru Vegeta. No character is useless unless they are written that way. Dumping a character because they are "too weak," is just lazy, and frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something for them to do.

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Saiyan Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

[Kid Buu]

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Daimao Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

Fixed, and also it was Dende who it was aimed at.

[Kamiccolo9]

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Daimao Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

Fixed, and also it was Dende who it was aimed at.

Danke.

Well, I put Saiyan Arc, since he at least managed to kill a Saibaiman there.

Regardless, claiming that characters are useless just because they aren't as strong as the main characters is just a piss-poor argument, and one that the series itself doesn't even support. I mean, I didn't see Goku's SSJ3 powers be all that useful when trying to convince people to give their energy for the Genki Dama.

[Kid Buu]

Actually, he doesn't kill the Saibaman either.

He knocks it down, turns his back, and the Saibaman got back up. Vegeta killed the Saibaman and told them to go all out, hence why next time this happened, the Saibaman blew-up on his foe.

[Kamiccolo9]

Actually, he doesn't kill the Saibaman either.

He knocks it down, turns his back, and the Saibaman got back up. Vegeta killed the Saibaman and told them to go all out, hence why next time this happened, the Saibaman blew-up on his foe.

Whatever, he still beats it

[Kid Buu]

More importantly, Tenshinhan in the Saiyan Arc defeated himself with his Kikoho death.

But yeah, minor characters can still do important things. The first arc was great with this: Goku, Bulma, Oolong, Yamucha, and Pu'erh all bought something to the table and contributed in their own ways.

[trick007z]

First of all, if you're trying to tell me that the DBZ formula has a shelf life, then...duh. Literally the only place it has left to go is to get into weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense like American comics do.

Secondly, I get the argument perfectly. But explain to me how BoG deviated from the normal course of DBZ. It was Broly 2.0 except Goku lost; and you know what happened? The entire matter was played off in a comedic and trivial fashion. That movie completely lacked an edge, there was zero desperation. It was happy-go-lucky nu-Dragonball in every sense, and that is exactly what I am talking about when I say that when you remove the morbidity of sheer physical violence, you cut a piece of what Dragonball is completely out of the picture.

I reiterate, other characters were made useless because they were too weak. Making them useful again involves completely changing the premise of how DB conflicts are handled. You cannot, CANNOT find a way to make Ten Shinhan useful again without invalidating Goku and Vegeta.

BOG was different in that it took the basic formula and had it not work. Goku got stronger through a convenient means and still wasn't enough. It subverted the trend, and it also breathed life into the formula because now the ultimate plot device had been finally realized and there were still people stronger. Also you're acting like not going with the general trend and offering something new means it can't have the same violent battles. It can.

It doesn't need to be a new villain being so much stronger and them just overpowering him with new power ups. It's not interesting anymore.

[Cursed Lemon]

I fail to see how a series with slug aliens that create glass balls capable of summoning magical wish-granting dragons that are the envy of galactic emperors and royalty from other planets, that has literal embodiments of pure evil (including one spawned from one of the aforementioned alien slug people) , and ends with a battle with a pure evil wad of bubblegum isn't "weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense."

As far as characters being too weak, Mr. Satan saved the universe. Yajirobe saved everyone from Oozaru Vegeta. No character is useless unless they are written that way. Dumping a character because they are "too weak," is just lazy, and frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something for them to do.

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Saiyan Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

Every - EVERY - major DBZ conflict has been ended by someone having the strength to overpower the villain.

So, again...if you're looking for characters to play small, quirky roles, then DBZ has already been doing that the whole time and this idea of characters not mattering is a myth.

[trick007z]

I fail to see how a series with slug aliens that create glass balls capable of summoning magical wish-granting dragons that are the envy of galactic emperors and royalty from other planets, that has literal embodiments of pure evil (including one spawned from one of the aforementioned alien slug people) , and ends with a battle with a pure evil wad of bubblegum isn't "weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense."

As far as characters being too weak, Mr. Satan saved the universe. Yajirobe saved everyone from Oozaru Vegeta. No character is useless unless they are written that way. Dumping a character because they are "too weak," is just lazy, and frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something for them to do.

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Saiyan Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

Every - EVERY - major DBZ conflict has been ended by someone having the strength to overpower the villain.

So, again...if you're looking for characters to play small, quirky roles, then DBZ has already been doing that the whole time and this idea of characters not mattering is a myth.

Nobody was stronger than Raditz when they beat him, nobody was stronger than Vegeta when they beat him, nobody who was fighting Kid Buu was stronger than him. They all found creative ways to beat them.

Tao, King Piccolo, Piccolo Jr, Nappa, the Ginyu Force, Freeza multiple times, the Androids, and Cell were the one's really guilty of this. And even Piccolo Jr is pretty iffy.

[Kamiccolo9]

I fail to see how a series with slug aliens that create glass balls capable of summoning magical wish-granting dragons that are the envy of galactic emperors and royalty from other planets, that has literal embodiments of pure evil (including one spawned from one of the aforementioned alien slug people) , and ends with a battle with a pure evil wad of bubblegum isn't "weird sci-fi super-existential ethereal nonsense."

As far as characters being too weak, Mr. Satan saved the universe. Yajirobe saved everyone from Oozaru Vegeta. No character is useless unless they are written that way. Dumping a character because they are "too weak," is just lazy, and frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to come up with something for them to do.

Hell, Tenshinhan was vastly outclassed as early as the Saiyan Arc, and he was still able to do save Gohan (or Dende, I can't remember who Buu was aiming at) in the Buu Arc.

Every - EVERY - major DBZ conflict has been ended by someone having the strength to overpower the villain.

So, again...if you're looking for characters to play small, quirky roles, then DBZ has already been doing that the whole time and this idea of characters not mattering is a myth.

Pilaf wasn't overpowered by anyone, nor was Oozaru Goku. Goku lost against the main antagonist of the 21st Budokai Arc, and that was due more to bad luck than being overpowered. Commander Red was betrayed by his own men, and Black blew himself up. As I recall, Goku and Grandpa Gohan's fight resulted in a no contest. Goku, again, lost to the main antagonist of the 22nd Budokai. Vegeta was defeated by a naked monkey kid falling on him. Guldo was cheap-shotted by Vegeta, same with Recoome and Burter. They beat Ginyu by outthinking him, and using his own abilities against him. Vegeta bluffed Android 20. Cell had to ally himself with Vegeta in order to achieve his perfect form. Vegeta tried overpowering Fat Buu, and died doing so. Goku failed to beat Fat Buu, despite being capable of doing so. Super Buu beat Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan by outthinking them, and Vegetto did the same to Buuhan. And finally, Goku's "overpowering" Pure Buu consisted of him pushing a ball of everyone else's energy at him.

And no, I'm not looking for "small quirky roles." What I'm looking for is the characters to be used to the best of their potential. We are constantly told that Gohan is very smart. Show us! Vegeta is said to be a strategic genius. Use that! Bulma is a technological genius. Remember when that used to be a thing? Why can't we have more of that?

[Cursed Lemon]

Okay...once again, you guys are complaining about characters not being utilized, while at the same time coming forth with example after example of how they were, you know, utilized. Is this a problem or not?

[Kamiccolo9]

Okay...once again, you guys are complaining about characters not being utilized, while at the same time coming forth with example after example of how they were, you know, utilized. Is this a problem or not?

So, if you admit that we have valid examples, does that mean you admit that your entire argument about this kind of thing not working for Dragonball is basically bullshit?
You haven't been able to come up with a single coherent reason why a non-traditional villain would not work for the series. Why can't we have fights and characters utilizing their other skills?

Hypothetically, say there was another Garlic Jr. movie. This is a foe that cannot be overcome by sheer power. How does it demean the main characters to have Bulma and her father manage to come up with some kind of scientific method of stopping him while Goku and Vegeta distract him? And have Yamcha and Tenshinhan and co. protect them from Garlic Jr.'s minions in the meantime?

[Cursed Lemon]

This argument literally makes no sense if what you're griping about was never a problem in the first place.

[Kamiccolo9]

This argument literally makes no sense if what you're griping about was never a problem in the first place.

Then why did you argue with me when I suggested that they utilize a villain that would require something other than brute force to beat? You gave me this long spiel about how it doesn't suit the franchise, and how it demeans Goku and Vegeta to have the weaker characters do something, and how all of the weaker characters are absolutely useless and can do absolutely nothing.

[Cursed Lemon]

Because I still maintain that every major DBZ villain was defeated via punching and kicking and blasting. That's still the premise of the show, and you've consistently ignored my point that if these support characters don't actually defeat the villains themselves - which they NEVER have - then there is no difference between how the show is now and how you're imagining it to be.

Like Bulma and her Blutz wave machine. Omega Shenron was still overtaken by SSJ4 Gogeta and ultimately destroyed by a galactic spirit bomb. But she got USED, right?

[Kamiccolo9]

Because I still maintain that every major DBZ villain was defeated via punching and kicking and blasting. That's still the premise of the show, and you've consistently ignored my point that if these support characters don't actually defeat the villains themselves - which they NEVER have - then there is no difference between how the show is now and how you're imagining it to be.

Like Bulma and her Blutz wave machine. Omega Shenron was still overtaken by SSJ4 Gogeta and ultimately destroyed by a galactic spirit bomb.

And my point is....what is wrong with going against that trend? If the series just repeats what it has been doing for the last 20 years, then what's the point of coming out with new stuff? What's wrong with having a non-traditional villain that has to be defeated using non-traditional methods?