Fusion needs to become obsolete.

[Kroni_Hunter]

I really hope AT buries this concept, especially now that we have characters who surpass Super Vegito. It seems that he is moving away from the idea at the very least, since Goku and Vegeta didn't even try it. (Aside from Gotenks, who i do not really mind since Goten and Trunks are not top tier.) But even the theoretical existense of fusion either takes away all the tension from the story, or makes the main characters look like pricks because they want to fight as themselves.

[Cursed Lemon]

It really does present a dilemma as far as how to proceed.

Either the characters fuse and become WAY too much for the villain to handle...or the characters fuse, can't defeat the bad guy, and then they literally have no hope of winning because that strength increase was massive.

[Rocketman]

So it's better to have super-de-duper power able to be accessed at any time than to have it be locked behind either a Dance that has to be done perfectly, or the Earrings that permanently merge you with somebody else?

I don't follow.

It really does present a dilemma as far as how to proceed.

Either the characters fuse and become WAY too much for the villain to handle...or the characters fuse, can't defeat the bad guy, and then they literally have no hope of winning because that strength increase was massive.

You could say the same about Super Saiyan back in the day, or SSG now.

"Either Godku is WAY too much for the villain to handle...or he uses it, can't defeat the bad guy, and then they literally have no hope of winning because that strength increase was massive."

[Kamiccolo9]

I feel like this whole issue could be solved by coming up with different kinds of villains than "hey, remember that last guy? Well this guy is even stronger than that guy, who was stronger than the guy before that guy."

Give us someone that can't be beaten by power alone. That would remove this whole escalation ordeal entirely, at least for a little while.

[Cursed Lemon]

Yeah, but the problem is that it's a show about fighting and our heroes reeeaaaallllyyyy can't do anything else.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, but the problem is that it's a show about fighting and our heroes reeeaaaallllyyyy can't do anything else.

Not with that attitude they can't. That's what happens when you allow characters to stagnate.

On the other hand, present them with new challenges, and you force them to adapt. Gohan's supposed to be extremely smart; use that! Vegeta is supposed to be a strategic genius, and was a member of a galactic army. Show us what he's capable of as a leader! Piccolo has all these unique abilities; use them for something other than fighting!

Saying "it's a fighting show" is doing a huge disservice to the source material. We have all of these unique, multi-talented characters. Surely there exists someone, somewhere, competent enough to make use of them as doing more than simply punching each other in the face. Being a "fighting show" does not exclude other kinds of confrontations.

[Cursed Lemon]

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I don't know if anyone's terribly interested in watching Gohan hack a computer, or Vegeta commanding an army of thousands of people hundreds of times weaker than he is.

DB is just not really that deep. I mean, you could MAKE it that deep...but it'd be a completely different show.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I don't know if anyone's terribly interested in watching Gohan hack a computer, or Vegeta commanding an army of thousands of people hundreds of times weaker than he is.

DB is just not really that deep. I mean, you could MAKE it that deep...but it'd be a completely different show.

I didn't bring up anything "deep." We have characters that are defined by their experiences, and are said to have all of these different talents. Why not make use of them? Otherwise, it's a waste, and it might as well never have been mentioned in the first place.

I mean, we've had episodes and chapters where the fighting has taken a back seat, and the fandom didn't become mutinous.

[trick007z]

They were able to do it early Dragon Ball. Guys with telekinesis, someone who could transform you into something else, a devilman with and instant kill attack, a monster who attacks bounce off of.

So things like that. Have a guy that is maybe just so ridiculously fast that no matter the training the heroes can't touch him and they have to find a way around that. Have a guy who literally sucks the energy out of a person by just being in their vicinity. Have a scientist who can maybe create some way to take away the Saiyans power so they are as strong as average Earthling and have to get by on pure skill alone. Have a brick who just isn't effected by physical attacks. Someone like Guldo but more competent. Character's that can effect the environment of a planet to use that as a weapon. There is so much you can do besides "this guy is a hundred times stronger than the last guy we fought". It's just lazy.

[Chuquita]

I want to see a character who's like a more competent final form Janemba so badly; someone who can literally warp the reality around them.

[enjyu123]

I want to see a character who's like a more competent final form Janemba so badly; someone who can literally warp the reality around them.

Janemba was too cool, now only if the new movie has someone that can warp more profoundly. I think that Janemba would have been a better character design for cell IMO.

[Cursed Lemon]

DBZ is full of examples of what you're trying to get across.

Guldo could stop time.

Ginyu switched bodies.

Yakon ate light energy.

Goku and Vegeta inside of Buu.

The problem is that if you start defeating the main (main) villains with something other than your power, the whole theme and aesthetic of the show changes. You effectively turn it into Scooby Doo.

Can you imagine if, after everything that happened, Gohan defeated Cell by solving a math problem or something?

[Kamiccolo9]

DBZ is full of examples of what you're trying to get across.

Guldo could stop time.

Ginyu switched bodies.

Yakon ate light energy.

Goku and Vegeta inside of Buu.

The problem is that if you start defeating the main (main) villains with something other than your power, the whole theme and aesthetic of the show changes. You effectively turn it into Scooby Doo.

How do you figure? How does highlighting other positive aspects of the characters in any way diminish the series?

[Cursed Lemon]

How do you figure? How does highlighting other positive aspects of the characters in any way diminish the series?

Whether it is diminished or not is entirely up to you.

But there is no way you can say it wouldn't be different.

[KentalSSJ6]

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I don't know if anyone's terribly interested in watching Gohan hack a computer, or Vegeta commanding an army of thousands of people hundreds of times weaker than he is.

DB is just not really that deep. I mean, you could MAKE it that deep...but it'd be a completely different show.

I didn't bring up anything "deep." We have characters that are defined by their experiences, and are said to have all of these different talents. Why not make use of them? Otherwise, it's a waste, and it might as well never have been mentioned in the first place.

I mean, we've had episodes and chapters where the fighting has taken a back seat, and the fandom didn't become mutinous.

I miss Piccolo's stretchy arms and extendo fingers...

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I don't know if anyone's terribly interested in watching Gohan hack a computer, or Vegeta commanding an army of thousands of people hundreds of times weaker than he is.

DB is just not really that deep. I mean, you could MAKE it that deep...but it'd be a completely different show.

I didn't bring up anything "deep." We have characters that are defined by their experiences, and are said to have all of these different talents. Why not make use of them? Otherwise, it's a waste, and it might as well never have been mentioned in the first place.

I mean, we've had episodes and chapters where the fighting has taken a back seat, and the fandom didn't become mutinous.

I miss Piccolo's stretchy arms and extendo fingers...

And the super hearing. That could have been useful, if utilized more often.

How do you figure? How does highlighting other positive aspects of the characters in any way diminish the series?

Whether it is diminished or not is entirely up to you.

But there is no way you can say it wouldn't be different.

What's wrong with different? Did it harm the series when the more "adventure" themed first arc of Dragon Ball transitioned into the more "fighting" themed second arc? Why shouldn't the series be shaken up every now and then?

[Cursed Lemon]

What's wrong with different? Did it harm the series when the more "adventure" themed first arc of Dragon Ball transitioned into the more "fighting" themed second arc? Why shouldn't the series be shaken up every now and then?

Why don't we just shelf characters permanently after every single episode, if we're feeling just that creative?

This just becomes a "what I want vs. what you want" discussion. All I'm saying is that beating opponents through strength, willpower, and perseverance is what gives the show its theme. If you think you'd rather see something else, by all means that is perfectly valid, but this is a situation where you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Kamiccolo9]

What's wrong with different? Did it harm the series when the more "adventure" themed first arc of Dragon Ball transitioned into the more "fighting" themed second arc? Why shouldn't the series be shaken up every now and then?

Why don't we just shelf characters permanently after every single episode, if we're feeling just that creative?

This just becomes a "what I want vs. what you want" discussion. All I'm saying is that beating opponents through strength, willpower, and perseverance is what gives the show its theme. If you think you'd rather see something else, by all means that is perfectly valid, but this is a situation where you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Why not? Why can't we occasionally have a villain who isn't a physical match for the heroes, but is a threat in other ways? Since when do "strength, willpower, and perseverance" only work in conjunction with punching somebody in the face, or blasting them with lasers? I mean, probably the greatest single example of willpower in the series, Vegeta shaking off Babidi's control, had nothing to do with power; just making use of the character traits he'd been built up to have ever since he was introduced.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "permanently shelf characters." What I'm talking about is making use of these characters.

[Cursed Lemon]

Because you're talking about this like we could do absolutely anything at all to the show and it would all work out perfectly because you just want it to.

You cannot separate DBZ and "punching people in the face". It would be like trying to dissociate Yugioh and card games.

I could very easily say, "why doesn't Yugi just walk over there and punch his opponent in the jaw," and I would literally be just as right to feel that way as you are now. Because I'm saying it in an overarching sense with respect to just one aspect of the show, and I don't have to actually delve into the specifics of what kind of precedent that sets for future conflicts, how that typecasts certain characters, how the premise and theme of the show is affected, etc. etc.

It's a completely irresponsible point of view unless you're making an effort to look at the big picture.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because you're talking about this like we could do absolutely anything at all to the show and it would all work out perfectly because you just want it to.

You cannot separate DBZ and "punching people in the face". It would be like trying to dissociate Yugioh and card games.

I could very easily say, "why doesn't Yugi just walk over there and punch his opponent in the jaw," and I would literally be just as right to feel that way as you are now. Because I'm saying it in an overarching sense with respect to just one aspect of the show, and I don't have to actually delve into the specifics of what kind of precedent that sets for future conflicts, how that typecasts certain characters, how the premise and theme of the show is affected, etc. etc.

It's a completely irresponsible point of view unless you're making an effort to look at the big picture.

You are not making any sense at all.

I'm not saying "cut the fighting out." I'm saying "play to the other strengths that the characters have as well."

Fighting and using your head are not mutually exclusive, and to treat them as such weakens your stories, and stagnates a franchise. Having a villain every once in a while who is more of a mastermind then another "guy who is stronger than the last guy" is not going to drastically change the makeup of the franchise.

No one is talking about "separating DBZ and punching people in the face." But if you think that is all that the series is capable of, or all that the audience will accept, then you are really selling the series and the audience short.