Are Tenkaichi fans ruining the franchise's progress?

[budokaifanatic007]

It doesn't matter who thinks which game is better, BOTH fans deserve the game they want. Budokai fans are upset because the last time they got a taste of a 2D game was 6 years ago while tenkaichi fans got so many chances with RB/UT. it doesn't matter if these games weren't as good as T3 at least you guys got games that catered to you.

[Doctor.]

If anything, UT tried to appeal to both the BT fans and the B3 fans, and ended up being a mess.

[Quebaz]

If anything, UT tried to appeal to both the BT fans and the B3 fans, and ended up being a mess.

By having a Rock-Paper-Scissors gameplay?

[DonieZ]

"Are Tenkaichi fans ruining the franchise's progress?"

Hmm.. No. I'm gonna lay down the truth to everyone right now: NB listens to no one on forums. Often I read things like "NB isn't listening to the fans" "NB is listening to the wrong people". Guess what, NB don't listen to anyone! If any of you here actually think that what you write here, your suggestions, thoughts, ideas are being recognised and recorded, then you should think again. If you actually want to get listened to, you have to try to contact the companies themselves directly. You've got to take to social media and bother community managers (how else does the fabled "Treevax" have such good connection and relation with them?) A couple years back, not too long after RB2, I and similar minded others from another forum started a fb group, added the community managers, and regularly posted our thoughts ideas and views of the then present DB video games. We posted on their profiles, PM'd and outright bothered and annoyed our only connection with the people making the games for a good number of months (before life got busy and nobody cared anymore). We received responses and it was clear that these people (Tony Shoupinou and co.), however much influence they have, were hearing us and acknowledging our views. We were mainly campaigning for either a competitive DBZ fighter, or a 3D fighter which was fun, unique and had a bit of depth (I usually look to Final Fantasy Dissidia for a model of a 3D fighter with some depth). I gave up on DBZ games shortly after UT. However ever since the announcement of XV, I have felt like our efforts might have actually had some worth.

Anyway, I'm tired of reading the same old "Fans don't know what they want, it's because of them the games suck" as if NB is basing their ideas for the games on what they read here. Rubbish. Unless you've done what I have, or take part in that awful group Treevax is present in on fb (I'll come on to that later), then drop the idea that you have any power whatsoever in the outcome of development of DB games, other than purchasing the product. NB base what they will next develop ultimately on SALES. T3 sold well, RB follows. Budokai 3 is a hit, BL follows. RB2 bombs, no sequel. There are very rare cases where Namco actually reach out to the fans, such as with that questionnaire that one time; and I'm pretty sure that was only because they were really unsure of what to do after RB2. And guess what,it was through fb (or at least one I'm thinking of was)! If you aren't on that site grinding every day then I don't want to hear this lame, aged scapegoat.


Okay, so we've established that generally fans are unlikely to have much influence based on what they say on forums. However, I do believe that certain fans and groups might be detrimental to the progress of the franchise. You might have guessed it; it's Treevax and his cronies on that damned fb group whose name I forget nor care for (quite a number of members too). Treevax's ideas are unambitious, uninteresting and just plain out mediocre. His "sheets" say barely anything on gameplay, and what they do are minimal and come across as if what was present in RB2 was nearly perfected; I call bull! That whole group is basically full of Tenkaichi fangirls who cry "MO CHARACTER!", and this is basically all Treevax stands for. A fully fleshed out story mode and our typical Tenkaichi/Raging-Dull gameplay. And this is the man who represents our community! The person who gets to interview the chief developers is a biased fool. He doesn't try to express (nor truly understand) the entire desires of the fan base when speaking to Spike, art dink (if he did, I wasn't following then), DIMPS and Namco Bandai. If anyone wants to blame someone for UT, blame him I say! Don't blame generic imaginary DB fan "who doesn't know what he wants", blame someone who actually (seems) to have some power in the outcome of the games, via voicing "our" opinions to the devs.

I've got more to address but I've said enough for one post.

[ZeroAnnihilated]

It wont be a flamewar if you know your facts enough not to resort certify them with bias. Its comparitive, one game offers progressively more than the other and one fanbase happens to care about nothing productive. Its not abstract, you're just getting worked up over nothing. What is there to rage about? If a tenkaichi fan cant prove its depth over Budokai then theres nothing to argue. Most budokai fans have played and dropped it at some point, most Tenkaichi fans have just played BT2 - RB.

I didn't mean to sound like I was raging. I'm actually in a great mood as I always enjoy gaming conversation. The problems relating to flamewars is exactly that: Knowing the facts. The problem over the years (since what? 2006?) is that as much as players think they know about the opposing game, they really don't know what they're talking about. I don't know about you, but I'm very VERY dedicated to Tenkaichi 2 gaming, or at least I have been. You may have shared such dedication for Budokai games so stop me if I'm reaching... but I like to look up old conversations of Budokai depth vs Tenkaichi depth for two reasons. One, because it's fun to gauge the overall understanding of DBZ combat from both sides ranging from year to year. And Two, as I said, I'm dedicated. If there's anything about the game I missed, I want to know about it. Fortunately, when I read comments/messages in these forums, I'm astounded on how little people know about the depth of each game. Now, notice I said "Fortunately". I say this because it tells me how far I've come regarding the understanding of DBZ combat, especially regarding the Tenkaichi games. As much as I would like to root for my home team, I'm often embarrassed by the arguments being presented in favor of Tenkaichi, when they are either flawed, merely presented the wrong way, or even presented for the wrong reasons. I will say this, Budokai players of that time seemed to know more about Budokai than Tenkaichi players knew about Tenkaichi, so at that time, I have to agree that Budokai players had the better argument. I said better argument, not better game.

Personally, I loved the Budokai series. I still do, though I don't play much anymore. I've been subscribed to UnderlordTico and SaiyanJin2 for a long time and enjoy their performances as well. Though, Tico needs to pick up the pace because his YouTube partnership has had him throwing attention to a variety of games when he needs to stick to Budokai 3/Infinite World. I don't know who he thinks he's kidding, we all know he's a Budokai pro. It is because of previous BvT arguments and video exhibitions by these two (and others, some of which are no longer available) that I have been able to keep up with the understanding of Budokai gaming. There are some aspects of the game that are very traditional, some that are evolved (ex: flight, teleportation, transformations, Ki construct, etc).

Now, I can't speak for the rest of the fanbase simply because I stuck with a game that most people left behind (as you said, most people left Budokai, Tenkaichi 2-RB). How I see Tenkaichi 2 is not how other players saw it. And... I don't expect you to either. Therefore, I am not surprised that you have yet to find someone to bring a proper argument to Budokai. However, the problem is not that the argument does not exist, it is that no one has been able to present it. I'm not copping out here, because I fully intend on throwing you a bone.

I will approach this from two angles. First, being the overall comprehension of combat depth. I'm not going to throw definitions around as the understanding of depth has been explained in more than one context. One being: Easy to play, difficult to master. Another being: The number of viable option in any given situation. Though I do believe Tenkaichi 2 holds true to both definitions in spades, I'm merely going to touch down on how the fighting community sees DBZ games in general. Though I have my own theories as to why DBZ will never be seen at EVO, many people will argue that no DBZ game (Budokai/Tenkaichi/All others) holds enough depth/skill requirement to take place at EVO. These people consider depth through a traditional sense, and to a large degree, Budokai gamers holds true to the same understanding. The last person who discussed DBZ depth with me spoke about traditional factors such as zoning, priority, combo potential, scaling, etc. Now, I will never take an opposing game and downplay it to better suit my argument. Can't really feel that I've won if I do something like that. But the problem here is that we are not looking at two games of the same combat construct. One is presented through more of a traditional style of combat (Budokai 3/Infinite World) and the other is presented with more of an evolved style of combat (Tenkaichi 2). Now, don't let my words evoke your defenses. I'm merely regarding the construct of Tenkaichi 2 to the traditional understanding. Since the Budokai games relate more to the traditional style, it inadvertently requires the players to present their argument based on the traditional understanding of depth, including traditional factors relating to depth. The problem here resides in the fact that if the traditional mind tries to point out the flaws of an evolved battle construct based on traditional factors, then of course he's going to feel triumphant. What the traditional mind does not consider are the factors relating to the evolved battle construct and the factors relating to its depth. You see, a game that is built upon traditional depth has had years and years and YEARS of background to support the argument. This is why arguing against Tenkaichi depth has worked so far, because the evolved understanding of Tenkaichi depth had yet to be fully comprehended and more importantly ready to be explained. Forgive me, because I used this metaphor to explain something to someone else earlier on one of my videos, but it would be like if you played Checkers and understood the depth of checkers regarding how the game is played. Then when someone else comes along and says Chess holds a lot of depth and then you say "Well no, you can't jump your opponent to take the piece. Sorry, no depth here." Understanding the full depth of Chess would require you to learn a completely new concept of board gaming. In the sense of console fighters, understanding the true depth of Tenkaichi 2 and explaining it all... give us a little slack here. We don't have an assemblage of predecessor Tenkaichi styled games to give us support. Pretty much all of the depth of Tenkaichi 2 has been a new discovery or a variation of traditional depth.

My second angle of approach stems from the fact that because Tenkaichi is presented through a new understanding of depth, an attempt to explain it all would either confuse the traditional mind or simply force a shoulder brushing retreat. I don't say this because the traditional mind is unable to fathom the true depth of Tenkaichi 2, but simply that there's so much to it that any reader would likely give up before reaching the end. Not to mention, consider this: Tenkaichi players have experienced traditional games and at least in my own right, have enjoyed them thoroughly. Therefore, I have been able to experience the depth of traditional styled fighters and am able to understand with equal footing. So to look at a traditional fighter now, I can still acknowledge the depth and the factors related simply because of my experiences. Asking a traditional fighter to step out of his comfort zone in order to understand an evolved battle construct may be asking too much. Right now, I've written a FAQ for Tenkaichi 2 based almost solely on the combat construct of the game. I'll leave a link for any of you to dive into, but even still... the depth of the game is not explained. I'm actually working on a separate piece regarding the depth of Tenkaichi 2, but I have a feeling it is still going to be quite lengthy.

FAQ for Tenkaichi 2: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/932683-drag ... faqs/53346

[Quebaz]

3D fighter which was fun, unique and had a bit of depth (I usually look to Final Fantasy Dissidia for a model of a 3D fighter with some depth).

It's all in Gundam Extreme VS son, import that if you haven't, most deepest 3D fighter out there with action that resembles DBZ fights.

Okay, so we've established that generally fans are unlikely to have much influence based on what they say on forums. However, I do believe that certain fans and groups might be detrimental to the progress of the franchise. You might have guessed it; it's Treevax and his cronies on that damned fb group whose name I forget nor care for (quite a number of members too). Treevax's ideas are unambitious, uninteresting and just plain out mediocre. His "sheets" say barely anything on gameplay, and what they do are minimal and come across as if what was present in RB2 was nearly perfected; I call bull! That whole group is basically full of Tenkaichi fangirls who cry "MO CHARACTER!", and this is basically all Treevax stands for. A fully fleshed out story mode and our typical Tenkaichi/Raging-Dull gameplay. And this is the man who represents our community! The person who gets to interview the chief developers is a biased fool. He doesn't try to express (nor truly understand) the entire desires of the fan base when speaking to Spike, art dink (if he did, I wasn't following then), DIMPS and Namco Bandai. If anyone wants to blame someone for UT, blame him I say! Don't blame generic imaginary DB fan "who doesn't know what he wants", blame someone who actually (seems) to have some power in the outcome of the games, via voicing "our" opinions to the devs.

I've got more to address but I've said enough for one post.

Worst part is, Treevax has said multiple times that he doesn't care about the gameplay, but rather the graphics and content, and suprisingly, a TON of people (going by his FB group, people on youtube, and some people here) agree with him that content should be the priority.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

"Are Tenkaichi fans ruining the franchise's progress?" Hmm.. No. I'm gonna lay down the truth to everyone right now: NB listens to no one on forums. Often I read things like "NB isn't listening to the fans" "NB is listening to the wrong people". Guess what, NB don't listen to anyone! If any of you here actually think that what you write here, your suggestions, thoughts, ideas are being recognised and recorded, then you should think again. If you actually want to get listened to, you have to try to contact the companies themselves directly.

They do take feedback on contact sites, and tend to only validate what is most demanded, granted thats a company thing but they do hear people - just don't listen to rational people. Though they never respond to what imput they take into account, very seldom do they acknowledge people based on ideas given especially if youre American, that I put money on. They hold most of their interviews in France because of favouritism. Japan in general has some sort of fetish for Europe: from Pokemon to Anime. The only fanbase they ever consider is the European ones.

Sometimes I feel like Namco is very thick-headed when it comes to who they listen to and where they assume fans are thinking. They ignore competitive players like a plague in their ignorant concept of making their games "fun & accessible" which translates to spike as "lets dumb it down." If not for dimps understanding what makes a game good from the getgo, we'd have no chance. We'd get crap like Ultimate Ninja-esc gameplay in the 2D field. Then there are times where people say that others demand too much for a game, or are so damn abstract that they either ignore it or they make a wild guess and make your UT-esc game.

You've got to take to social media and bother community managers (how else does the fabled "Treevax" have such good connection and relation with them?) A couple years back, not too long after RB2, I and similar minded others from another forum started a fb group, added the community managers, and regularly posted our thoughts ideas and views of the then present DB video games. We posted on their profiles, PM'd and outright bothered and annoyed our only connection with the people making the games for a good number of months (before life got busy and nobody cared anymore). We received responses and it was clear that these people (Tony Shoupinou and co.), however much influence they have, were hearing us and acknowledging our views. We were mainly campaigning for either a competitive DBZ fighter, or a 3D fighter which was fun, unique and had a bit of depth (I usually look to Final Fantasy Dissidia for a model of a 3D fighter with some depth). I gave up on DBZ games shortly after UT. However ever since the announcement of XV, I have felt like our efforts might have actually had some worth.

Its entirely possible, though I assume that Treevax's following and physical conferences with Namco as an unspoken rep is what got them to take us seriously, it would be great if he was our community manager - too bad hes a Raging blast fanboy. That makes me nervous, even at this point he still wants a RB3 despite it being at this point an inferior concept.
His ideas were pretty generally forward with mine but his gameplay concept just seems really unconventional and broken. I dont want people who only reference Spike games to dictate how all the future games should play, that would be murder.

Anyway, I'm tired of reading the same old "Fans don't know what they want, it's because of them the games suck" as if NB is basing their ideas for the games on what they read here. Rubbish. Unless you've done what I have, or take part in that awful group Treevax is present in on fb (I'll come on to that later), then drop the idea that you have any power whatsoever in the outcome of development of DB games, other than purchasing the product. NB base what they will next develop ultimately on SALES. T3 sold well, RB follows. Budokai 3 is a hit, BL follows. RB2 bombs, no sequel. There are very rare cases where Namco actually reach out to the fans, such as with that questionnaire that one time; and I'm pretty sure that was only because they were really unsure of what to do after RB2. And guess what,it was through fb (or at least one I'm thinking of was)! If you aren't on that site grinding every day then I don't want to hear this lame, aged scapegoat.

I think the biggest influence on Xenoverse was the thankfully large group of people telling namco not to pump out these ass games anymore after RB1 was so unfinished, and not until the proof game where RB2 sold like dust, and UT was universally hated did they consider asking their higher-ups for this proposition. Though they are very sneaky about what they use their time for. They went as far as to have us think that it was BOZ that was worked on for 2 years. I dont know if thats true but it didnt add up with the final product. Though on the earlier point, I still think Tenkaichi fans have the majority on who controls the game's format. Most of them are the reason why Dimps went 3D despite us wanting 2D games back, its the that bitch and cry about not being able to fly around to the edge of the map at any inconvient time. Its them that refuse to master the 2D games as we have, and want the games to be dumbed down, hence RB. Namco even made a statement saying they purposely dumbed down RB to make it more accessible for the new BT fanboys. Even if Namco doesn't specifically listen to every dumb request they make, they still assume that they speak for all of us. I mean they have facebook accounts too and their own little groups that go on and on about what-if super Saiyan additions. I'd assume theyd be on Namco.

Treevax's ideas are unambitious, uninteresting and just plain out mediocre. His "sheets" say barely anything on gameplay, and what they do are minimal and come across as if what was present in RB2 was nearly perfected.

I agree, at most all hes good for is showing NB that we demand more content than the barebones we got with RB with barely any costumes, and no stages from the anime but 2. Maybe even pitching cel-shading is the way to go. But all the stuff they pitched is what should have been a standard, not a request. Why should we have had to request for that? Dimps knows what is expected and at least make the effort to fill in the gaps they find. Yet way Treevax seems to praise RB2 really disturbs me, it wasnt that good of a game at all. It was slow, aesthetics were ugly, nothing resembled the anime, and combos felt stiff and repetitive. Yet after claiming to have played all the Dimps games, wants Spike back on a sequel. Pff, the game we want is just too much work for Spike. They are a weak company with no experience off their own work. RB1 & 2 look almost identical. This is still spike at their best. No creativity, no feeling of Dragoball in it what so ever. None of the stages presented ever resemble the areas in the anime. Why? Because stock stages are easy to recycle. Then theres the graphics, according to Chaospunishment, all they did was change the lighting on the models, and bam: new graphics.

I call bull! That whole group is basically full of Tenkaichi fanboys who cry "MO CHARACTER!", and this is basically all Treevax stands for. A fully fleshed out story mode and our typical Tenkaichi/Raging-Dull gameplay. And this is the man who represents our community! The person who gets to interview the chief developers is a biased fool. He doesn't try to express (nor truly understand) the entire desires of the fan base when speaking to Spike, art dink (if he did, I wasn't following then), DIMPS and Namco Bandai. If anyone wants to blame someone for UT, blame him I say! Don't blame generic imaginary DB fan "who doesn't know what he wants", blame someone who actually (seems) to have some power in the outcome of the games, via voicing "our" opinions to the devs.

I dont think Treevax is to blame for UT, I think he came around after it happened but your points are true. All I hear him talk about in interviews are the trivial unimportant things, like music and if the story will be faithful to all the other 30 games we had before.C'mon. About bias, I dont get any impression on him that hes played Budokai. He never ever compares anything of it, to the games. I lost faith in him when he was trying to compare Xenoverse to Battle of Z. Why would you ask a company about a game they never made? Shouldnt have this been the time to ask, about what in Budokai are they going to bring back? Everything they did remember from Budokai came from them, not him. If it were up to him, they would be wasting their time following Spike's engine.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Worst part is, Treevax has said multiple times that he doesn't care about the gameplay, but rather the graphics and content, and suprisingly, a TON of people (going by his FB group, people on youtube, and some people here) agree with him that content should be the priority.

Whomever brought up that theory that the fanbase was spoiled by BT's marketing direction was spot on. Since BT3 everything was just nothing but roster this, costume that, and only gotten worse over the years when Spike failed to give them to us. The whole process with Spike after BT3 has just been an overexaggerated striptease featuring things we'll never see and people confirming their own hopes as possibilities.

PS. He doesnt care about gameplay but thinks BOZ sucked. Seriously, where is his credibility? Oh right, because the storymode wasn't faithful in its glorious cutscenes frame by frame. This is what I mean with wrong priorities. Its also not a coincidence that namco NEVER markets their games based on gameplay changes or updates. Just the typical "Play as your all-time favourite DBZ character and experience the battles in full 3D like never before!" crap. Is it also a conspiracy why all their demo-tech boys really suck at the games themselves? Like worse so than the RB online community?

Treevax's sheets arent anything brand new either, he just wants everything left over from BT3 to return with a few extra thousand costumes we'll never have - and perfect layered cel-shading to stare at.

[goku the krump dancer]

Gotta say… I fail to see how either has more depth than the other however I will agree with Zero in that I kinda feel the Tenkaichi games are an evolution on fighting games at least with DBZ games anyway. From personal experience I remember in anticipation for Burst Limit I popped in Budokai 3 after not playing in since BT1 came and boy did that game feel and look so old even at that time, it was just.. so dull so to speak.

Funny thing is if you ask the "casual" DB fans what was the last game they played, they would most likely say Budokai 2 or 3. By the time we hit Super DBZ and Tenkaichi 2 most of the "casual fans" had dipped off and it was only us hardcore guys that stuck around since then.

No. Most would say they last played BOZ, and then remind us that BT3 is the best game of all time. All the Xenoverse vids have at least 10 comments somewhere that have this phrased.

We must have different views on what a casual fan is. Because to me, a casual fan is someone who used to watch DB on Toonami, played one or two of the games and simply lost interest in the show and games as a whole somewhere around the Boo arc. Those are the guys who remember playing Budokai 3 with there cousin way back having a blast not really touching it sense.

Anybody who has continued to support the games past Tenkaichi 1 has to be a hardcore fan to some degree in order for them to keep tabs on them. I can't see a "casual" fan caring enough about a DBZ game to complain to the higher ups about what they want. Besides they would probably listen to japanese fans before western ones anyway but they probably don't complain as much as we do.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It wont be a flamewar if you know your facts enough not to resort certify them with bias. Its comparitive, one game offers progressively more than the other and one fanbase happens to care about nothing productive. Its not abstract, you're just getting worked up over nothing. What is there to rage about? If a tenkaichi fan cant prove its depth over Budokai then theres nothing to argue. Most budokai fans have played and dropped it at some point, most Tenkaichi fans have just played BT2 - RB.

I didn't mean to sound like I was raging. I'm actually in a great mood as I always enjoy gaming conversation. The problems relating to flamewars is exactly that: Knowing the facts. The problem over the years (since what? 2006?) is that as much as players think they know about the opposing game, they really don't know what they're talking about. I don't know about you, but I'm very VERY dedicated to Tenkaichi 2 gaming, or at least I have been. You may have shared such dedication for Budokai games so stop me if I'm reaching... but I like to look up old conversations of Budokai depth vs Tenkaichi depth for two reasons. One, because it's fun to gauge the overall understanding of DBZ combat from both sides ranging from year to year. And Two, as I said, I'm dedicated. If there's anything about the game I missed, I want to know about it.

I can talk about this subject without aggrovation equally, I just dont want to assume things on the other side of the spectrum. However outside of this thread, I usually avoid such debates because theres usually more prejudice than evidence in them to support which is better, its like the console wars on other sites, such and such objectively sucks because I play the other. Thats not whats being implied here. I'm more attached to the obscure BL because of how well it plays but is ignored just because the majority of BT fans hate the camera and that is absurd.

This conversation though, is more about the production value of both games and which series has more potential than the other vs which series is Namco bias on from the louder voice. Tenkaichi is fun and all but overrated and expired its welcome. As someone else said Spike had 6 years to make a BT4 and nearly died trying. Both games serve a purpose but the favouritism is what is ruining the diversity in this franchise. Its time for a change but nobody wants to make it. Namco just wants to cater to the most popular, rather than the best recieved and thats why all the games have been garbage since it started. They're so deadset on pleasing the BT fans at all costs when they constanly change their verdict, but ignore the B3 fans who want a new 2D game and nothing fancy. Its the conspiracy.

Gotta say… I fail to see how either has more depth than the other however I will agree with Zero in that I kinda feel the Tenkaichi games are an evolution on fighting games at least with DBZ games anyway. From personal experience I remember in anticipation for Burst Limit I popped in Budokai 3 after not playing in since BT1 came and boy did that game feel and look so old even at that time, it was just.. so dull so to speak.

A lot of people who still play it too this day, along with HD and hold local tournaments for the game would disagree. The game isnt dull to the people who have gotten over its age and have mastered the gameplay. Though it wouldnt seem so old if there was somethng new to play in progression of it. Blame Namco for refusing to make a sequel.

We must have different views on what a casual fan is. Because to me, a casual fan is someone who used to watch DB on Toonami, played one or two of the games and simply lost interest in the show and games as a whole somewhere around the Boo arc. Those are the guys who remember playing Budokai 3 with there cousin way back having a blast not really touching it sense.

Thats not even a casual fan, thats just a fan who happens to know what DBZ is through nostalgia. Nothing to do with the present.Though I suppose BT is for people in that position if they just want a DBZ game to play but dont care to learn the mechanics, then they should buy BT3.As I said, its perfectly mash-friendly, theres no penalty for spamming Super kamehamehas to win. No shame. However that is not what we want anymore. That format cheapens each year technology expands.

Anybody who has continued to support the games past Tenkaichi 1 has to be a hardcore fan to some degree in order for them to keep tabs on them. I can't see a "casual" fan caring enough about a DBZ game to complain to the higher ups about what they want. Besides they would probably listen to japanese fans before western ones anyway but they probably don't complain as much as we do.

The japanese fans rated UT the same as BT3. Japanese people are humble to the letter; where as the western fans tore that magazine apart for alledgedly lying. Though they arent any better by ignoring the truth, DBZ games wouldnt go anywhere if we just accepted them as they were, Namco would then just think we'd buy them anyway no matter how lazy they'd get with them.

[goku the krump dancer]

Gotta say… I fail to see how either has more depth than the other however I will agree with Zero in that I kinda feel the Tenkaichi games are an evolution on fighting games at least with DBZ games anyway. From personal experience I remember in anticipation for Burst Limit I popped in Budokai 3 after not playing in since BT1 came and boy did that game feel and look so old even at that time, it was just.. so dull so to speak.

A lot of people who still play it too this day, along with HD and hold local tournaments for the game would disagree. The game isnt dull to the people who have gotten over its age and have mastered the gameplay. Though it wouldnt seem so old if there was somethng new to play in progression of it. Blame Namco for refusing to make a sequel.

I'm sure Expert Tenkaichi players could do the same, I have no problem with a game's age accept in special cases and going from BT3 back to Budokai 3 was one of them. However like I said both games seem to have equal level of depth if you ask me..Underlortico's Ifinite World show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKJJH4 ... 6XS48dUgjg looks just like ZeroAnnihilated's Tenkaichi extravaganza https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9IcUVg ... Qi813ep8pg … just a bunch of different characters pretty much doing the same thing.

We must have different views on what a casual fan is. Because to me, a casual fan is someone who used to watch DB on Toonami, played one or two of the games and simply lost interest in the show and games as a whole somewhere around the Boo arc. Those are the guys who remember playing Budokai 3 with there cousin way back having a blast not really touching it sense.

Thats not even a casual fan, thats just a fan who happens to know what DBZ is through nostalgia. Nothing to do with the present.Though I suppose BT is for people in that position if they just want a DBZ game to play but dont care to learn the mechanics, then they should buy BT3.As I said, its perfectly mash-friendly, theres no penalty for spamming Super kamehamehas to win. No shame. However that is not what we want anymore. That format cheapens each year technology expands.

Any fighting game can be mash friendly… and you act as if you can't side stepping or teleporting behind your opponent and firing your own "Kamehameha" isn't possible in Spikes games like they are in Dimps'. The only game where spamming is penalized is Burst Limit with its infinite ki, though I'm sure you cant dodge those just as easily.

All in all, I feel like DB games need to be good at being DBZ games FIRST before they try to compete with others. Xenoverse is winning me over surely, we just need a good gameplay trailer or something to see what we could be working with..

[ZeroAnnihilated]

OK, I have to go to bed soon so I'll try to get a quick response in here.

I can talk about this subject without aggrovation equally, I just dont want to assume things on the other side of the spectrum. However outside of this thread, I usually avoid such debates because theres usually more prejudice than evidence in them to support which is better, its like the console wars on other sites, such and such objectively sucks because I play the other. Thats not whats being implied here. I'm more attached to the obscure BL because of how well it plays but is ignored just because the majority of BT fans hate the camera and that is absurd.

You've partially scratched the surface here. Except prejudice is only fueled by ignorance, which is augmented by the fact that the evidence that has been provided thus far is out of date. Not only is it out of date, but the gaming community has moved on to Tenkaichi 3, Infinite World, Burst Limit, Raging Blast, and so on. As much as been discovered over the years, the information most Budokai players have to go on was provided by Tenkaichi players years ago. So if you go anywhere else, it is likely that you'll find the same old arguments supported by the same obsolete "evidence". The fact is, even now, you are basic your statements on prejudice simply because you are unaware of the leaps and bounds that have been made with Tenkaichi... or you simply don't care, which would relate to my previous argument regarding the traditional mindset. As far as your attachment to Burst Limit, I have no opinion. I don't have anything negative to say about any DBZ game prior to UT... and to be honest, I don't really see a lot of depth to the RB series, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It is quite possible that I simply don't know about it, and I can admit the possibility. The real difference there is that I'm willing to admit that a game holds true combat depth without anyone trying to convince me otherwise, while most Budokai players choose to discard the possibility of Tenkaichi depth because it suits their ability to feel secure. The simple truth here is that Tenkaichi has solidified itself as competition to the Budokai series, and Budokai fans feel that Tenkaichi got in the way. Oh, and yes, I understand the camera hate... not everyone enjoys the camera angles of Tenkaichi, but most people love it.

This conversation though, is more about the production value of both games and which series has more potential than the other vs which series is Namco bias on from the louder voice. Tenkaichi is fun and all but overrated and expired its welcome. As someone else said Spike had 6 years to make a BT4 and nearly died trying. Both games serve a purpose but the favouritism is what is ruining the diversity in this franchise. Its time for a change but nobody wants to make it. Namco just wants to cater to the most popular, rather than the best recieved and thats why all the games have been garbage since it started. They're so deadset on pleasing the BT fans at all costs when they constanly change their verdict, but ignore the B3 fans who want a new 2D game and nothing fancy. Its the conspiracy.

OK, here's a good question. Just off the top of my mind when I read your post. How do YOU judge the potential of the Tenkaichi series, the quality of which you've already firmly defined to fit your argument? You say Tenkaichi is overrated, but I have already explained that even most Tenkaichi players don't know the true value of the games. So either I'm lying and I've been playing Tenkaichi 2 for years just to drop the joke on you now, or the Tenkaichi games, as good as they are perceived thus far, are even better once you master them (much like the Budokai games).

Though I suppose BT is for people in that position if they just want a DBZ game to play but dont care to learn the mechanics, then they should buy BT3.As I said, its perfectly mash-friendly, theres no penalty for spamming Super kamehamehas to win.

Spamming and button mashing have been used as some of the oldest arguments I've come across. Again, I have to get to bed soon but I would like to inform you that I eat arguments like this for breakfast. It is possible to button mash and spam in the Tenkaichi games, but it is no more effective than doing so in a Budokai game or any other fighting game (that I've played). Compared to a player that knows what they are doing, button mashing and spamming blasts would get you just as far as if you were playing Budokai 3. As I said, I'm working on an article explaining the depth of Tenkaichi 2, so I won't waste a lot of time explaining the details here. But seriously, the button mashing/spamming argument is so... 2008.

The japanese fans rated UT the same as BT3.

As odd as it may seem, I have yet to find any Tenkaichi 2 footage of advanced gameplay from any Japanese player, save Jey3149. But again, very VERY outdated. So... I don't want to sound too harsh here, but who cares about what Japanese fans rate UT or BT3?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

You've partially scratched the surface here. Except prejudice is only fueled by ignorance, which is augmented by the fact that the evidence that has been provided thus far is out of date. Not only is it out of date, but the gaming community has moved on to Tenkaichi 3, Infinite World, Burst Limit, Raging Blast, and so on. As much as been discovered over the years, the information most Budokai players have to go on was provided by Tenkaichi players years ago.

No people will use the same arguments if they still remain unaddressed since the moment they were brought to comparison. People who hate Tenkaichi hate it because to them,they'll say all the characters fight the same to them, or that all characters are generic and have no unique qualities to them, or all the characters under a certain transformation tier are useless, etc.
These complaints havent changed and somewhat remained carried over since through Spike's games. Sure characters dont play identically to the frame, but the engine is just so bare bones that all the rehashed games themselves feel the same because nothing at all has improved since BT3 if not have gotten worse, that even some BT3 fans say. Arguments against it wont change if it doesnt change. Though my opinion of BT3 and RB arent the same.

So if you go anywhere else, it is likely that you'll find the same old arguments supported by the same obsolete "evidence". The fact is, even now, you are basic your statements on prejudice simply because you are unaware of the leaps and bounds that have been made with Tenkaichi... or you simply don't care, which would relate to my previous argument regarding the traditional mindset.

Leaps and bounds where exactly? This is 2014. The progression between BT1 and BT2 was greatly noteworthy on Spike's part but thats where it ends and both games are irrelevant, not since have they been able to do that, if not pathetically trying to recapture BT3's gameplay piece by piece on what they took out on RB. I dont care, I dont have the rest of my youth to wait for Spike's babysteps to finally turn into solid walking forward. Dimps learned to walk as soon as they stopped crawlling. B1 - to IW is an improvement, which has been on the same important areas needed. (IW was just slapped together but even still its still better than B3). Spike doesnt improve anything besides the character models, some attack animations and the camera angles to victory poses. None of which are that important to be a priority. Their gameplay is always going to be the exact same basic format. Dimps at least tweaks things to smooth out the experiences.
(B1-required full combos to use a Kamehameha)
(B2 Made Kamehameha shortcuts to just 1 command and combo)
(B3 - removed the cutscene rush attacks and made some of them real time: (Super dragon fist)
(IW - made it so that you can use a kamehameha anywhere within a combo imput now)

Spike tried to improve projectiles a little bit but barely did anything, kamehamehas still take forever to charge but have neat new particle effects now and they made the Super kamehamehas cutscene releases now, meh.The problems everywhere else never get noticed. Their animations are still robotic if not bobbly in RB, and character mouths still look unnatural. Details like that shouldnt have to be demanded. Dimps games actually give models some life, their facial expressions even change emotions that resemble the anime at times. Never does Spike do that, and they bragged so much about the emotion feature in RB2 and I didnt see a thing they were boasting about.

As far as your attachment to Burst Limit, I have no opinion. I don't have anything negative to say about any DBZ game prior to UT... and to be honest, I don't really see a lot of depth to the RB series, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. It is quite possible that I simply don't know about it, and I can admit the possibility.

I dont really care because its not enough and wont change based on their track record, everything is a gimmick to Spike that they assume we'd like just because it sounds cool on paper. Why the hell would they advertise Day and Night as a feature? It doesnt add anything the gameplay, it should just be there (though I dont care for it at all). As for gameplay, there isnt enough options to do anything outside pursuits, rushes, and 5-hit scripted strings. BT3 at least offered more than that minimum.

The real difference there is that I'm willing to admit that a game holds true combat depth without anyone trying to convince me otherwise, while most Budokai players choose to discard the possibility of Tenkaichi depth because it suits their ability to feel secure.

Tenkaichi fans do this as well, if not more often. They hate budokai because Of A. Or B. Budokai fans hate Tenkaichi because of A. B. C....etc. They tend to give abstract or arbitrary excuses rather than comparative reasoning.

The simple truth here is that Tenkaichi has solidified itself as competition to the Budokai series, and Budokai fans feel that Tenkaichi got in the way. Oh, and yes, I understand the camera hate... not everyone enjoys the camera angles of Tenkaichi, but most people love it.

The camera works because the stages were smaller and it was closer to the characters. In RB the stages were bigger, and camera was father, hence all the jerky out of focus issues. The larger the stage, the worse the camera. Its almost a law. Even Xenoverse is showing that issue, which I pray wont ruin the game as it did RB1.

OK, here's a good question. Just off the top of my mind when I read your post. How do YOU judge the potential of the Tenkaichi series, the quality of which you've already firmly defined to fit your argument? You say Tenkaichi is overrated, but I have already explained that even most Tenkaichi players don't know the true value of the games. So either I'm lying and I've been playing Tenkaichi 2 for years just to drop the joke on you now, or the Tenkaichi games, as good as they are perceived thus far, are even better once you master them (much like the Budokai games).

They aren't bad games, they're still better than RB to everyone, however BT bores me because of its gameplay. I find it too chaotic some times where too much emphasis is put on heavy smashes, long-range attacking, and a lot of pursuits. Though not as much as RB which depends on it in my experience, BT gets old for me because the imputs are always the same and always must follow a strict linear pattern. There just isnt the same thrill in 3D games for me because combos often stay one-sided a lot of the time. I prefer BL because you have to think on your feet, with just simply counter combos, vanishing, swaying, and warp-counters (my word for B3's style of Z counters). I'm no expert on either games, but maybe its just that I dont like all the space given in the 3D games because you always have to chase after people and a lot of cheap deaths occur on usual. As for potential for the games, I dont know. I dont see how BT's engine could really improve, its not impossible to work with, its just not as easy to spot the consistency of what works and what doesnt work in battles because it can be too unpredictable in a sense there is no focus in battles beyond keeping the enemy at a distance away from you by any means necessary, where as in BL and IW you have to wear your opponent down more akin to an actual fight which both sides have the chance to stop each other at anny time in a match. With BT3 the gap usually becomes noticable quickly between characters fighting depending on who lands more consecutive hits. BT always felt like a race to 0 for me rather than a fight where you have to read your opponent's frames.

Compared to a player that knows what they are doing, button mashing and spamming blasts would get you just as far as if you were playing Budokai 3

Not really, from how I see it in B3, by pressing []x5 would end the combo and you knock the opponent away, and lose your space between the short distance you have to continue the combo. Most combos cant be continued directly after you knock your opponent too far away; which is why it encourages close-quarter interaction. Most B3 players rarely ever use a Kamehameha because they dont need to. In BT the same thing happens somewhat at the end of a plain 5-hit, but its combo system is made for following up on that with the step-in button and lauchers, you can also just dash behind them and if the counter is still counting your combo continues. It lets you play "catch-up" if youre faster than the stunned opponent recovery or the counter's timer depending on which comes first.

I don't want to sound too harsh here, but who cares about what Japanese fans rate UT or BT3?

The point was made at a nother argument. Japanese fans dont complain about shitty games the way western fans do, they are optymistic of them to the point where they wouldnt have any objective way to really improve them or it implies that they dont like them. Then again, I could be entirely wrong but they have more trust in their company who gives THEM more special privileges.

[EXBadguy]

Thats not the point being made here. You also act as if people prefer Tenkaichi objectively based on quality. Thats not it. People like Tenkaichi because its easy to play, mash friendly, and has more characters.

Well, I'm not saying anything like that. As a matter in fact, you said the exact same thing here. Viola!

They have the oldest following and community, they are ignored in favour of the new-casuals that seem to have priority privileges just because they refuse to play anything else.

So...yeah, you didn't need to explain why some people prefer Tenkaichi. I already know.

Budokai fans arent the obnoxious ones here.

Yes, they are, along with the Tenkaichi fans. Sure half of them are reasonable, but they're obnoxious for bashing people's preferences and crying "we want DBZ on EVOOOO".

its rightful frustration from what Dimps is being forced to do catering to them even after Spike was released. Its been almost 6 years since we got a Burst limit sequel that was clearly intended, yet they had to waste money trying to win back the begging BT fanbase because of their stubborness seems to speak volumes. Even now. If they were going to make yet another shitty 3D game, they might as well have lept Artdink. I mean its not as if Budokai was a failure, they were the most succesful DBZ games of all time and Namco just throws it away. They have the oldest following and community, they are ignored in favour of the new-casuals that seem to have priority privileges just because they refuse to play anything else.

I understand. I COMPLETELY understand what you're saying, but I'm gonna say this again, if Namco Bandai isn't gonna make another Budokai game anymore, then just move on. Why make a petition about Budokai when yall know darn well that they weren't gonna listen. For example, Soul Calibur 5. There was a petition to bring back Hwang, did that happen? No. When the US fans made a petition to bring J-Stars to USA, did it happen? No. I could go on and on about worthless petitions, but I don't wanna.

Thats not what people are saying, I'd love a DB universe action RPG but not at the chance the combat system will be generic. Because it wouldnt be a fight game, thats a greater chance, they might as well do both here with the 3D games, but not class them as the same thing as Budokai for everything else.

So? They can just do one RPG game, JUST one. It doesn't matter if it gets critically panned from critics and us fans. I just wish for them to do one just for the franchise to diverse, they don't have to make a sequel. Not all DBZ games have to be about fighting. This ain't Street Fighter.

It doesn't matter who thinks which game is better, BOTH fans deserve the game they want. Budokai fans are upset because the last time they got a taste of a 2D game was 6 years ago while tenkaichi fans got so many chances with RB/UT. it doesn't matter if these games weren't as good as T3 at least you guys got games that catered to you.

Yes. Finally somebody agrees with me. Seriously, people, just move on if you don't like today's games. You don't need to waste 3 or 4 years running your beak about why yall need a Budokai 4/BT4/RB3. Let NB crumble and then they can find a way to get back to the top.

[budokaifanatic007]

Yes. Finally somebody agrees with me. Seriously, people, just move on if you don't like today's games. You don't need to waste 3 or 4 years running your beak about why yall need a Budokai 4/BT4/RB3. Let NB crumble and then they can find a way to get back to the top.

Yea man i realized a little bit ago that Burst limit 2 or Budokai 4 and Raging Blast 3/ Tenkaichi 4 are NEVER going to happen, EVER. If anything the Budokai fans shouldnt ask for BL2 or B4, They should rather ask for a new 2D franchise.RB was kinda a failed attempt at a "new" Tenkaichi franchise but you guys had 7 years to get that new and improved Tenkaichi game you guys wanted. I'm not saying Budokai fans should be crying about not getting a new game since 2008 but c'mon now how would you feel if the tables were turned? You would be doing the same thing the Budokai fans are doing. I think Bandai needs to take a break on Tenkaichi and try something new like an RPG or a 2D fighting game because Tenkaichi is getting stale with all the horrible attempts from Spike.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Zero rightly points out that what makes Tenkaichi's gameplay depth harder to quantify is that its a discussion of whether more gameplay options- mostly stemming from 3D movement- necessarily contribute to a competitive game. Because no 3D fighter has reached tournament-level plane, there is no precedent.

To retread the "DBZ at EVO" thread, let me point out Super Smash Brothers again. Its 2D, but that is all it has in common with traditional fighters. Items are the most hectic aspect, but they are ruled out first rule first clause; you win matches by knocking the opponent offstage, not by reducing health bars, making even high-damage approaches safer because not every attack by every character has the capacity to kill you. You have stages of varying widths, numbers of vertical platforms, extremely effective and controlled jumping greater than traditional fighters, and the option to outright run away from your opponent. Would not these greater mobility options and lesser risk create a camping-friendly game, the traditionalist might ask in 200... however long before competitive Melee became a bona fide thing? Not at all, even in defense-encouraging Brawl. Likewise, Spike games have a few such quirks, such as registering height in such a way that a character might dive under something, like a crater in the Cell Games arena to dodge an energy blast right above them.

I'm going to take a stab at what I think to be the heart of the question- not can Spike games (Tenkaichi/Raging Blast) be deep, but how- how would skill at those games be exemplified. The way you play T2, Zero, it seems the answer is in the art of not getting hit. Offensive gestures in the Tenkaichi games basically come down to melee strings followed by a finisher, step-in heavy finishes, throws, and Blast 2s; there might be variety within those things, particularly Blast 2s, or the odd advance technique like the Ground-and-Pound prolonging a base combo, but a successful close-range offense only has a handful of ways of being executed. But then defense comes in, and you have jumps, ascents, teleports, dragon dashing, ki-powered guarding, paralysis, explosive waves, automatic after-images (Wild Sense and the like), not to mention melee priority. Your "Daigo Moment #37's" in Tenkaichi are not going to come from offense, they're going to come from a player perfectly dodging Super Explosive Wave all eight times and then slamming the immobile use with a Super Kamehameha to win the game.

At least that's the interpretation I've come to. I could be completely reading you wrong.

...and now I've tempted to overdub either "Daigo 37" or "Wombo Combo" over one of your Super Explosive Wave dodges...

[DonieZ]

3D fighter which was fun, unique and had a bit of depth (I usually look to Final Fantasy Dissidia for a model of a 3D fighter with some depth).

It's all in Gundam Extreme VS son, import that if you haven't, most deepest 3D fighter out there with action that resembles DBZ fights.

Oh yeah I saw one of the gimps you posted, it looks pretty neat. Have you (or anyone here) played Final Fantasy Dissidia or its sequel btw? Came out on the PSP, it's pretty darn good. It's also a 3D open arena fighter, although one on one, and is great fun with a ton of depth. Check out this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKzJr5dvfnM
The guy must really play a lot, in order to time those blocks/parries perfectly like that, when I used to play I tended to just stick with dodges. None of Spike's titles imo have anything on this stuff, not in leagues. There are so many different kinds of attacks or play styles varying between characters, from various short range to long range attacks. The game's good (I own the sequel).

Okay, so we've established that generally fans are unlikely to have much influence based on what they say on forums. However, I do believe that certain fans and groups might be detrimental to the progress of the franchise. You might have guessed it; it's Treevax and his cronies on that damned fb group whose name I forget nor care for (quite a number of members too). Treevax's ideas are unambitious, uninteresting and just plain out mediocre. His "sheets" say barely anything on gameplay, and what they do are minimal and come across as if what was present in RB2 was nearly perfected; I call bull! That whole group is basically full of Tenkaichi fangirls who cry "MO CHARACTER!", and this is basically all Treevax stands for. A fully fleshed out story mode and our typical Tenkaichi/Raging-Dull gameplay. And this is the man who represents our community! The person who gets to interview the chief developers is a biased fool. He doesn't try to express (nor truly understand) the entire desires of the fan base when speaking to Spike, art dink (if he did, I wasn't following then), DIMPS and Namco Bandai. If anyone wants to blame someone for UT, blame him I say! Don't blame generic imaginary DB fan "who doesn't know what he wants", blame someone who actually (seems) to have some power in the outcome of the games, via voicing "our" opinions to the devs.

I've got more to address but I've said enough for one post.

Worst part is, Treevax has said multiple times that he doesn't care about the gameplay, but rather the graphics and content, and suprisingly, a TON of people (going by his FB group, people on youtube, and some people here) agree with him that content should be the priority.[/quote]

I think I recall him saying gameplay wasn't one of his priorities, but to outright not care about it amazes me. That fb group is filled with the scrubs of the community. I have no problem with people enjoying the Tenkaichi style of play, but these guys just complain about not yet getting an authentic story mode and lack of every single character ever seen in DB. Fair enough the story mode is usually lacking, but the point and fact is, they haven''t got the time to do it properly whilst making a fighting game, therefore they might as well not do it at all. You've got to be reasonable, don't complain about one thing and ask for another, when attempting to have both is detrimental to the game. We won't ever get an authentic story mode in a DB fighting game until we get a game which is developed for 3 years at least. Clearly Treevax isn't too clever; all he is is smiles and "^^"s. >_> ...

They do take feedback on contact sites, and tend to only validate what is most demanded, granted thats a company thing but they do hear people - just don't listen to rational people.

Oh really, how are you so certain? Mayhaps they take a glimpse occasionally, but do you really think they actively read through each thread, regularly/weekly checking forums and looking for the general consensus? They might, I don't know for sure, but you and others come across as if it is fact. Where is your proof? There is no evidence to suggest they take anyone's opinions into account, just as VegettoEX stated after OP. They only place suggested they do is the official NB forum, as I've seen Charlotte (forgot second name), a community manager, say on her own or the NB Facebook to use the official NB forum to let them know what we want. I've glanced at the forum and it's pretty dead.

Also, you keep going on about how they don't listen to "rational" people. You think these guys are drones? They have their own tastes and thoughts on how a DB game should be. Budokai 1 never popped up from a gathering of ideas from the fans, DIMPS had their own vision in what they wanted, just as every developer has. Perhaps they may say to one another "it seems there is demand for a Tenkaichi HD remake" or "Budokai did very well why not make another?", however ultimately a company is going to do what they want to do, unless they're desperate. Look at Timesplitters; there has been demand for a fourth title for years. After Free Radical going bankrupt and being bought by Crytek, the series has basically died. And despite all the requests, petitions, fb group followings, Crytek ignore the fans. And anyway, how do you know DIMPS even wants to make another Budokai? They've been busy with other titles including Street Fighter IV, Super Street Fighter IV, Sonic Generations 3DS and Street Fighter x Tekken; they aren't like Spike, who seems to only have DB going for them. Perhaps DIMPS are tired of making the same kind of game, and which is why they're attempting a 3D open arena DB game. Ever thought about any of this? Something which I was going to say in another post, but maybe we should let not only RB but also Budokai or Burst Limit die. Onwards and upwards.

To carry on the sentiment of the previous paragraphs I'd like to also say that if NB really listened to the fans I'm pretty sure they would have considered another Budokai-esque game after Raging Blast 2. They know there is a following for Tenkaichi and they just as well know there is a following for Budokai. You seem to think the publishers are not very bright and that you know better. They know what will sell, but they either can't get DIMPS to do it or NB does not want it either. I reckon it's the former.

[Freeza Soldier #156]

I would love a remake of the Legacy of Goku games.

I would drop money for this in a heartbeat. Especially if they remade the first game to play like LOG 2 and Buu's Fury.

[DonieZ]

Something else I wanted to say. Budokai fans are just as bad as Tenkaichi fans, if not worse. I've come face to face with such fans before, and these are top players of the game (in fact the creators of that petition). They are alike Tenkaichi fans in the sense that they just want another Budokai and would not be interested in anything else. They couldn't care less for an actual good 3D fighter, nor a traditional 2D fighter right out. They simply want Budokai. What makes them worse is the fact that because the Budokai-esque games have some depth and can be played competitively to an extent, far moreso than Tenkaichi, it gives them this big-headedness; it encourages them to feel that Budokai is the only way.

The funny thing is, hardcore Budokai fans compliment themselves as players of games which require skill to play at high level and undermine Tenkaichi, however when you mention traditional fighters they instantly back into a corner and turn on defence mode, giving out criticisms such as (actual quote) "little gay jump". They're hypocritical. The truth is Budokai is a casual-friendly game which anyone can jump onto, albeit takes some time to master.


The truth is, both Tenkaichi fans and Budokai fans are hindering the progress of the development of Dragon Ball games. But not only them, any fan who closes their mind to only one way and doesn't wish to see how what is being developed can be made as good as possible is also hindering the progress.

Honestly, what I want is a great open arena 3D fighting Dragon Ball game. I want a game with all the elements of DB but also to allow for battles to get competitive and to have neat features. But the thing is I'm a casual gamer. If what makes the game enjoyable isn't accessible, or at least it isn't enjoyable to learn, I'm going to get turned off. I'm guessing a big deal in RB2 was the new combos. Guess what, I had no interest in learning them; none; zero. If you've bored me before majority of the fun options of the game have been opened up to me, you've done an immensely poor job. Maybe it's the way my mind is, probably why I'm good at maths; I hate memorising, hate it, I enjoy working things out. If the aim of the game is to memorise a characters combo string I'm throwing the CD in the bin. The game(s) needed more defensive options, sonic sway would've been great if it wasn't redundant(!), it should have been a carbon copy of Budokai's but in 3D. I want to have a good to and fro battle; fighting games aren't about who can memorise the longest combos then one-sidedly perform them on their opponent. SF is one of the best fighting games and most combos aren't even that long; but the best are pretty darn awesome and pretty hard to perform! Players should be given incentive to learn the game.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Yes, they are, along with the Tenkaichi fans. Sure half of them are reasonable, but they're obnoxious for bashing people's preferences and crying "we want DBZ on EVOOOO".

Thats a legitament ambitious request, how is that whining? Its not impossible. Its just ignored by Namco's casual catering. Still as I said, they at least know what they want. Tenkaichi fans never do.

I understand. I COMPLETELY understand what you're saying, but I'm gonna say this again, if Namco Bandai isn't gonna make another Budokai game anymore, then just move on. Why make a petition about Budokai when yall know darn well that they weren't gonna listen. For example, Soul Calibur 5. There was a petition to bring back Hwang, did that happen? No. When the US fans made a petition to bring J-Stars to USA, did it happen? No. I could go on and on about worthless petitions, but I don't wanna.

Namco has terrible customer respect. I already knew that, I gave up on Soul Calibur after 5 because of how shit it just was and knowing how Namco couldnt care less when Tekken is at stake, there is no point of even hoping. It might be a similar situation here, but its not as locked down. They'll never make a new Budokai game, but that doesnt mean Spike should be the go to for everything or default. The only reason they even brought dimps back was from the long 3 year outcry from how much people hated Spike on their websites. When I asked them before BOZ came out, they said they never wanted Dimps back on consoles because they liked Spike's worth despite the fans objecting to more half-assed games. When BOZ flopped, thats when they got embarassed. Then if Xenoverse does well, they might swallow their egos a bit. As much as I hate Namco, they are no where as bad as the makers of Saintsrow. they're so bad I left the community entirely, I'm surprised Budokai fans havent done the same.

So? They can just do one RPG game, JUST one. It doesn't matter if it gets critically panned from critics and us fans. I just wish for them to do one just for the franchise to diverse, they don't have to make a sequel. Not all DBZ games have to be about fighting. This ain't Street Fighter.

If they were willing to make more than one game at once or more than one type of game, maybe. I'm not against a REAL DBZ RPG, Namco just doubts its profitable, no more so than the Budokai games. Everything has to be based on Tenkaichi or nothing.

Yes. Finally somebody agrees with me. Seriously, people, just move on if you don't like today's games. You don't need to waste 3 or 4 years running your beak about why yall need a Budokai 4/BT4/RB3. Let NB crumble and then they can find a way to get back to the top.

They'd probably stop making DBZ games altogether if we stopped buying them, they'd never simply just fucking ask us what we want when they get stuck. They're more comfortable spoiling the Naruto, Tales and Tekken fans. They trash all their other communities. We dont mean a thing to them, we're just pocket change for them and for 6 years they honestly thought their half-assed efforts would be enough.