SSJG interference with the multipliers and Kaioken

[EliteWarrior]

Why does the SSJ multiplier have to change exactly? Why can't it stay the same and the amount that gets applied by it increase instead? Why can't it be like this?

SSJGod Goku = 40x SSJ3 Goku

Base Goku(God Ki) >= SSJ3 Goku

SSJ Goku(God Ki) = 10x SSJGod Goku(Or 50x SSJ3 Goku)

I believe in the movie the lines depict it as Goku not absorbing all of the Godly Ki. Only some of it. As there was a drop in power noted. The example of above is obviously just and example. I don't know how much stronger Goku is with the God Ki absorbed. But I don't think SSJ would make up that much of a difference.

thats way off buddy

you might need to rewatch the movie
ssj3 goku got his ass kicked completely by beerus. not only he didnt land a single hit on him, he got tapped by a shoulder and passed out, he couldnt even react to beerus speed as he was staring at him at a complete different direction when beerus was already behind him. on the other hand base goku (god) was able to perfectly tank beerus attacks and even punch him multiple times which means he would be atleast 200x-300x times stronger.
And goku in ssj god is only 10 percent weaker than beerus who was able to shake off, super gotenks, ultimate gohan whos much stronger than ssj3 goku , majin buu(whos almost as strong as ssj3 goku) like it was nothing.
ssj3 goku would have taken beerus less that 001. percent of his power to take down

and when goku transformed into ssj god his ki completely became unreadable by any z fighter which has never happened before.

this either proves that goku in ssj god is either could be around 3000x ssj3 goku post king kai training or he might even be more. but it does show that goku with that godly ki seems to have better control over it and use it without having to cause harm to earth.

by going to the conclusion, sure those numbers might sounds a bit too big, but its not my fault they made beerus soo powerful that hes stronger than super vegito so then they decide to have goku transform into a new super saiyan form of God. the Godly that goku recieved from the rutual of 6 saiyans was never meant to be a simple powerup, because it would have not been enought to fight beerus even on that level thats why it was powered by a different spiritual source of ki.

[Tectorman]

Actually, considering Goku thought that SSJ Gotenks would be enough to defeat Fat Boo then SSJ3 Gotenks would be more than twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku.

Correct, but it is impossible to say by how much. Super Gotenks must be stronger than Super 2 Goku, but since we don't have a figure, what we can say for certain is that he 's at least that strong. At many points can the "Goku's Buu Saga SSJ ability x800" go up and I acknowledge that; I'm just establishing the absolute dead-bottom minimum.

If we take it that SSJ Gotenks is between SSJ2 Goku and SSJ3 Goku. Lets just say for arguments sake that Gotenks was only 50% of SSJ3 Goku(Or 2x stronger than SSJ2 Goku) and that would be enough to beat Fat Boo. Then it would look something like this:

SSJ2 Goku: 2

SSJ Gotenks = 4

SSJ3 Goku: 2 * 4(4 times stronger than SSJ2 or 400x base) = 8

SSJ3 Gotenks = 4*8(8 times stronger than SSJ) = 32

As you can see SSJ3 Gotenks would be 4 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku if SSJ Gotenks is 50% of SSJ3 Goku. Now. You can argue that SSJ Gotenks is weaker than this. But we know that Vegeta, who was Goku's equal, could not put up a fight against Fat Boo at SSJ2. He got utterly destroyed. I think it is reasonable to think that Boo is at least twice as strong as SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta. Anything less and I don't think Vegeta would have been destroyed as badly.

Actually, as far as I saw, Fat Buu had only two saving graces against Vegeta: his regeneration and his stamina. He was a rag-doll to Vegeta until those came into play.

(Uncorroboratable pet theory: Vegeta, being under the Majin spell, was sending the energy of the person he was injuring (Fat Buu) to Fat Buu. I.e., even had Vegeta been three times as strong as Super Vegetto, it wouldn't have made a difference because he'd still be energizing Buu with every hit against Buu. Completely unsupportable, nor am I swearing to it. Just a thought.)

Given that, on a scale of 1=Goku's SSJ to 8=Goku's SSJ3, I'd put Fat Buu at a 3 and call myself generous. More likely, it's a 2.5 or a 2.

Later, Goku says an Ascended Saiyan wouldn't be much of a challenge for Buu. He's, rightfully, taking Buu's regen and reserves into account for that statement. He uses SSJ3 because he needs to hold Buu's attention and ensure that he's still around to teach the boys fusion. However, I believe he was holding back considerably, not so much to give the younger generation a chance but to stave off the time limit to go back to otherworld; i.e., he was capable of 8, but only fighting at 4.

Given that Goku gets scuffed up, bruised and bloodied with torn clothes when he fights an equivalent opponent (Majin Vegeta, Kid Buu), and he was pristine at the end of his fight with Fat Buu (except for sweating due to the approaching time limit), we can safely call Fat Buu below what Goku was putting out. So we can call Buu a 2 (with stamina and regen on the side), and even if we call Super Gotenks a 2.5, that's still enough to defeat Buu if he can last long enough against Buu (his thirty minutes is better than what time Goku had left), keep up with Buu (and his SSJ would be less strenuous than Vegeta's SSJ2, so his stamina would be improved), and finish Buu off (which, had Vegeta still been around after disintegrating Buu, he could have by mopping up after himself and vaporizing the last little bits*; if we call Super Gotenks a 2.5, then he should be able to accomplish this without killing himself).

*This turns out to be wrong. You need another Buu dealing out the damage, or you need to be overwhelming him (Super Vegetto exhausting Buuhan's regeneration or Goku's sentient-being-powered Spirit Bomb). But they didn't know it at the time.

Again, it's likely your assessment of Super Gotenks at a 4 is a reasonable assessment. I'm talking about the minimum.

You also say that you aren't convinced Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks? When the manga pretty much points out Evil Boo <= SSJ3 Gotenks < Gohan? In the manga Evil Boo says that the only person stronger than him is Gohan, that's why he formed the plan to absorb Gotenks to beat Gohan.

Buu's quote in 304 means he doesn't want anyone (Gohan, Gotenks, anyone) to be stronger. He means multiple people. The only reason why Gotenks wouldn't be included in that statement is because he wasn't there at the time (the boys were unfused). And even then, I think he meant both of them (he certainly wasn't acting like he was going to let Gotenks's power stick around). He's not pertaining to only Gohan.

As you can see from the text in the manga SSJ3 Gotenks is either stronger than Evil Boo, weaker than him or on par with him in terms of strength. Whereas Gohan is definitely stronger than the both of them. I tend to believe that SSJ3 Gotenks is just a bit stronger than Evil Boo. But it is highly possible that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker or just on par with him. And the reason SSJ3 Gotenks put up a good fight is because the kids have great battle sense and incredibly strong Ki based attacks.

True, SSJ3 Gotenks's power was on par with Buu's. I think slightly over, given that Super Gotenks (sporting an eighth of that power) was completely getting mauled by Buu. So he's above Buu (and not being tolerated for it) and so is Gohan (whom Buu flat out tells he won't tolerate being above him).

As far as Trunks's statement goes, first, he calls it maybe a tiny bit (as in, if SSJ3 Gotenks is a 1, Gohan might be a 1.02). Might be. Second, his statement isn't necessarily him reading Gohan's energy and comparing it to what he remembers SSJ3 Gotenks having. It could well have been his assessment seeing Gohan's equal ability but greater experience and less tomfoolishness resulting in Buu getting beat up worse.

Banning anime material is perfectly legitimate in this context because if you include anime material you get get inconsistencies. Like Vegetto and Goku being stronger than they should be. It should have been clearly evident straight away that SSJ3 Goku was outclassed by Bootenks. Because as I said earlier Evil Boo is about as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks with SSJ3 Gotenks possibly being slightly stronger. Let us assume that SSJ3 Gotenks is only 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku like you said. That means that Bootenks is 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku because Bootenks is made up of two characters that are practically 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. If we go back to the beginning of the Saiyan Saga. Raditz was only 3x stronger than Goku and Piccolo. Raditz wasn't going all out but he could easily hit Goku and Piccolo without them being able to react as we see during the fight. SSJ3 Goku would have not been able to avoid a serious attack by Bootenks.

That just means you disregard the contradictory material. The material that doesn't contradict anything doesn't need to get the same treatment.

Regarding Buutenks's power, you have to establish how absorption works. In D&D 3.5, crit multipliers stack based on how much above normal they are. For example, a x3 is "normal plus two extra" and x2 is "normal plus one extra", making a combination of the two x4 (normal plus two plus one), not x6. According to Fusion Reborn, Super Gogeta was able to do better than SSJ3 Goku, making the fusion at least a x8 multiplier over one fighter's abilities, or four times what the two could do separately.

Buu's absorption could be additive (as you say), multiplicative (like fusion), or less than additive (like the D&D 3.5 crit stacking I mentioned). It's not necessarily any given one of those.

But even if Buutenks was over 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Goku still would've stood a vastly better chance than Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo did against final-form Frieza. They didn't insta-die and neither did Goku. Yes, a serious attack from Buutenks would've seriously harmed Goku, but if he doesn't take Goku seriously (one of those lesser powers that he doesn't mind tolerating), then he's not going to make a serious attack. Nor did he. Not contradictory.

Later we see SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta defeat Evil Boo in the anime filler too when they are inside Evil Boo. In the manga Vegeta just pulls Fat Boo out so they never fight. If Evil Boo is 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku then he is 16x stronger than SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta. They would not have been able to defeat him. This is the problem with anime filler. We also see in anime filler Popo being able to block attacks from 2 SSJ children that are nearly on par with SSJ Gohan. Now. There is no way for Popo to do that unless he was Android tier levels of strength.

Do Goku and Vegeta defeat Super Buu or does he let them because he's toying with them? I agree with ignoring the part with Popo sparring with the boys, of course (unless we consider them to be just blowing off steam and not doing anything remotely for real; heck, it could have been a quick training session to maintain a SSJ state without using a lot of its power, like how Goku and Gohan learned FPSSJ back during the Cell Saga).

I agree with not considering the contradictory material. Ignore the Garlic Jr. Saga because its inclusion means wrestling with where and when to put The Dead Zone. On the other hand, I consider Bojack Unbound to be part of the storyline.

On material that doesn't contradict anything but adds clarity or detail, it needs to be considered on what it says. In the manga, the Elder Kai's plan for the Potara is for Gohan (mystically powered up by the Elder Kai himself) and Goku (capable of SSJ3) to fuse as regular Saiyans. They'll be capable of going SSJ, but the Elder Kai didn't think it necessary. Their Saiyan form would have been sufficient.

Later, Goku has to fuse with Vegeta instead. This was not the Elder Kai's first plan, but he expresses no misgivings about it because the two live to outdo each other. I.e., it is very plausible, based on the manga alone, that Vegetto's Saiyan form would've been able to do the same as the hypothetical Gokan's Saiyan form, replacing Gohan's mystic power-up with Vegeta and Goku's rivalry.

The anime just illustrates what the manga establishes further. Not contradictory.

[Hitiro]

thats way off buddy

you might need to rewatch the movie
ssj3 goku got his ass kicked completely by beerus. not only he didnt land a single hit on him, he got tapped by a shoulder and passed out, he couldnt even react to beerus speed as he was staring at him at a complete different direction when beerus was already behind him. on the other hand base goku (god) was able to perfectly tank beerus attacks and even punch him multiple times which means he would be atleast 200x-300x times stronger.
And goku in ssj god is only 10 percent weaker than beerus who was able to shake off, super gotenks, ultimate gohan whos much stronger than ssj3 goku , majin buu(whos almost as strong as ssj3 goku) like it was nothing.
ssj3 goku would have taken beerus less that 001. percent of his power to take down

and when goku transformed into ssj god his ki completely became unreadable by any z fighter which has never happened before.

this either proves that goku in ssj god is either could be around 3000x ssj3 goku post king kai training or he might even be more. but it does show that goku with that godly ki seems to have better control over it and use it without having to cause harm to earth.

by going to the conclusion, sure those numbers might sounds a bit too big, but its not my fault they made beerus soo powerful that hes stronger than super vegito so then they decide to have goku transform into a new super saiyan form of God. the Godly that goku recieved from the rutual of 6 saiyans was never meant to be a simple powerup, because it would have not been enought to fight beerus even on that level thats why it was powered by a different spiritual source of ki.

It isn't way off at all.

I remember the movie just fine. Goku does not need to have gotten 200-300 times stronger for him to be able to fight against Beerus. SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell Saga was only a couple of times stronger than Perfect Cell and Gohan literally destroyed him. The gap in which Beerus would need to do the feats he demonstrated in the movie are capable of someone who's 10's of times stronger than their opponent. Certainly not 100's. SSJ3 Gotenks is around 4-8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku. And Gohan is several times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. So Beerus would only need to be below 100x stronger than SSJ3 Goku to beat down all three of them with relative ease in the movie. In the movie Whis said that Beerus was fighting at 70% of his full power against SSJGod Goku. Considering Beerus still had the advantage in the fight. Beerus is, at the minimum, 30% stronger than SSJGod Goku. You are assuming way too much.

Correct, but it is impossible to say by how much. Super Gotenks must be stronger than Super 2 Goku, but since we don't have a figure, what we can say for certain is that he 's at least that strong. At many points can the "Goku's Buu Saga SSJ ability x800" go up and I acknowledge that; I'm just establishing the absolute dead-bottom minimum.

I'd establish the dead-bottom of the difference between SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku as SSJ Gotenks being half as strong as SSJ3 Goku, or 2 times stronger than SSJ2 Goku, which gives us enough leeway for Fat Boo to outclass the SSJ2 adults yet still have SSJ3 Goku be able to handle Fat Boo with the relative ease we saw in the manga and the anime. As such. the absolute dead-bottom minimum is that SSJ3 Gotenks is 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Not 2x.

Actually, as far as I saw, Fat Buu had only two saving graces against Vegeta: his regeneration and his stamina. He was a rag-doll to Vegeta until those came into play.

(Uncorroboratable pet theory: Vegeta, being under the Majin spell, was sending the energy of the person he was injuring (Fat Buu) to Fat Buu. I.e., even had Vegeta been three times as strong as Super Vegetto, it wouldn't have made a difference because he'd still be energizing Buu with every hit against Buu. Completely unsupportable, nor am I swearing to it. Just a thought.)

Given that, on a scale of 1=Goku's SSJ to 8=Goku's SSJ3, I'd put Fat Buu at a 3 and call myself generous. More likely, it's a 2.5 or a 2.

Later, Goku says an Ascended Saiyan wouldn't be much of a challenge for Buu. He's, rightfully, taking Buu's regen and reserves into account for that statement. He uses SSJ3 because he needs to hold Buu's attention and ensure that he's still around to teach the boys fusion. However, I believe he was holding back considerably, not so much to give the younger generation a chance but to stave off the time limit to go back to otherworld; i.e., he was capable of 8, but only fighting at 4.

Given that Goku gets scuffed up, bruised and bloodied with torn clothes when he fights an equivalent opponent (Majin Vegeta, Kid Buu), and he was pristine at the end of his fight with Fat Buu (except for sweating due to the approaching time limit), we can safely call Fat Buu below what Goku was putting out. So we can call Buu a 2 (with stamina and regen on the side), and even if we call Super Gotenks a 2.5, that's still enough to defeat Buu if he can last long enough against Buu (his thirty minutes is better than what time Goku had left), keep up with Buu (and his SSJ would be less strenuous than Vegeta's SSJ2, so his stamina would be improved), and finish Buu off (which, had Vegeta still been around after disintegrating Buu, he could have by mopping up after himself and vaporizing the last little bits*; if we call Super Gotenks a 2.5, then he should be able to accomplish this without killing himself).

Considering Goku and Vegeta were exactly even during their fight they both took damage and the battle wasn't short. Fat Boo hit Vegeta only a few times which severely injured Vegeta. You put Fat Boo at 2? You realise that would put Fat Boo as SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, right?

If SSJ Goku is 1 then SSJ2 Goku is 2. Making Fat Boo=2 would mean that SSJ2 Goku, and SSJ2 Vegeta, would be equal to Fat Boo. If you look at the fight between Goku and Vegeta and then look at the fight between the fight between Boo and Vegeta you can see that Fat Boo is much stronger than that. When Goku and Vegeta were fighting they were going at it for a good amount of time and the damage they were getting on each other was no where near as serious as what Fat Boo dished out on Vegeta. Goku would not consider an enemy equal in strength to him and Vegeta extremely superior just because of regeneration. If you think the difference between Vegeta and Fat Boo wasn't was even then how do you explain Vegeta being extremely injured? If we go back to the Namek saga Recoome was under 2x stronger than Vegeta and Vegeta at least managed to take more hits than he took against Fat Boo.

Again, it's likely your assessment of Super Gotenks at a 4 is a reasonable assessment. I'm talking about the minimum.

I'm also talking about minimum. There is no way Vegeta would have received that much damage from a character who is close to him in strength. Vegeta would have not suicide if he thought there was another possible way to defeat him. The fact that Vegeta only saw a suicide bomb as a way of defeating Fat Boo clearly points to him being severely out-matched by Fat Boo. And I feel 2x is a reasonable mount for this, allowing Goku to be 2x stronger than Fat Boo and being able to take him easily. Like he did.

Buu's quote in 304 means he doesn't want anyone (Gohan, Gotenks, anyone) to be stronger. He means multiple people. The only reason why Gotenks wouldn't be included in that statement is because he wasn't there at the time (the boys were unfused). And even then, I think he meant both of them (he certainly wasn't acting like he was going to let Gotenks's power stick around). He's not pertaining to only Gohan.

Boo's quote only seems to be aimed at Gohan. But I'm not not going to argue the semantics of the quote because you're free to interpret it that way. If you read the story it was Boo's plan to absorb Gotenks because he felt he couldn't beat Gohan without the absorption. But Evil Boo never felt that way with Gotenks. He thought he could deal with him without additional help. Boo naps when the kids lose the fusion instead of out-right killing them to get rid of a threat, if they were more powerful than him. He then spends his time hiding from Gohan to wait out the time period for the boys to be able to re-fuse so he can use their strength to defeat Gohan. All of this paints a picture to me that he wasn't bothered by SSJ3 Gotenks strength as much as he was Gohans. If they were that much of a threat to him he would have gone and hid from the kids until the fusion wore off. He wasn't against fighting them like he was Gohan. Which just goes to show that Gohan is stronger than the kids by enough that it worried Evil Boo. I honestly feel that Gohan is around 2x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If you look at the fight between SSJ3 Gotenks and Evil Boo, Evil Boo could get hits in and do damage. But he was severely out-classed by Gohan.

True, SSJ3 Gotenks's power was on par with Buu's. I think slightly over, given that Super Gotenks (sporting an eighth of that power) was completely getting mauled by Buu. So he's above Buu (and not being tolerated for it) and so is Gohan (whom Buu flat out tells he won't tolerate being above him).

This is subjective. I put SSJ3 Gotenks below Evil Boo's power but has the advantage in terms of Ki based attacks. We see throughout the story that characters can amplify their Ki through the use of Ki techniques. This allows them to take on enemies much more powerful than themselves. Key examples would be Piccolo against Raditz, Tienshinhan against Cell and Vegeta against Cell. All these characters were severely out-classed by the enemies they were fighting but their techniques which amplified their Ki made up for it. SSJ3 Gotenks is slightly better than Evil Boo because of his Ki based techniques. Even when SSJ Gotenks was up against Evil Boo his Ki based techniques proved extremely effective despite SSJ Gotenks being 8x weaker than Evil Boo.

As far as Trunks's statement goes, first, he calls it maybe a tiny bit (as in, if SSJ3 Gotenks is a 1, Gohan might be a 1.02). Might be. Second, his statement isn't necessarily him reading Gohan's energy and comparing it to what he remembers SSJ3 Gotenks having. It could well have been his assessment seeing Gohan's equal ability but greater experience and less tomfoolishness resulting in Buu getting beat up worse.

Trunks statement as far as I'm concerned is a reserved one. He doesn't want to admit that Gohan clearly out-ranks their Gotenks. He is being extremely prideful about it. Just like Vegeta refuses to admit that Goku is stronger than him up until the end. Even though we know he is. In terms of fighting ability I would actually rank Goten and Trunks higher than Gohan. Why? Gohan slacked for 7 years. Meanwhile Goten was sparring with his mother. So he obviously learnt a lot about fighting from her. And Trunks was also with his father in the Training room. I believe in the story Vegeta said he even give Trunks some lessons ready for the Tournament so Trunks could beat Goten, in spite of not like Goku. We also see that Trunks managed to land a hit on Vegeta who is actually a decent amount stronger than Gohan at this point. Gohan also struggled against Goten when they were sparring. So I honestly think Goten + Trunks > Gohan in terms of fighting ability. Vegeta also makes the statement when Gohan is fighting Dabra that he is fighting sloppily and that he had a much better combat form as a kid. In the 7 years due to not training his combat form has gotten much worse. So the fact that Gohan was picking apart Evil Boo was not due to fighting ability. It was just superior power.

That just means you disregard the contradictory material. The material that doesn't contradict anything doesn't need to get the same treatment.

Anything that influences power debat in these forums I feel should reference the manga only. Because the manga follows the author's view on the characters strength. Even though he has probably forgotten everything about the universe he's created. I'm not opposed to any material added to lengthen the story. I just believe it belongs in the discussion because anime filler paints a different picture from the manga. In the anime Goku actually calls Pure Boo(Kid Boo) the strongest of the Boo's. If that was the case then Goku wouldn't be able to beat him. The people who added the filler clearly had a different view of the characters strengths compared to Toriyama.

Regarding Buutenks's power, you have to establish how absorption works. In D&D 3.5, crit multipliers stack based on how much above normal they are. For example, a x3 is "normal plus two extra" and x2 is "normal plus one extra", making a combination of the two x4 (normal plus two plus one), not x6. According to Fusion Reborn, Super Gogeta was able to do better than SSJ3 Goku, making the fusion at least a x8 multiplier over one fighter's abilities, or four times what the two could do separately.

Buu's absorption could be additive (as you say), multiplicative (like fusion), or less than additive (like the D&D 3.5 crit stacking I mentioned). It's not necessarily any given one of those.

Regarding Bootenks it doesn't matter if you just say Bootenks was as strong as Evil Boo. He still wouldn't have been able to dodge because we know that 2x would outclass a enemy enough for them to not be able to do anything. SSJ3 Goku should not have been able to avoid any of Bootenks attacks. If he can then, somewhere, Goku has become stronger for some random reason. Only way to look at it.

But even if Buutenks was over 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Goku still would've stood a vastly better chance than Krillin, Gohan, and Piccolo did against final-form Freeza. They didn't insta-die and neither did Goku. Yes, a serious attack from Buutenks would've seriously harmed Goku, but if he doesn't take Goku seriously (one of those lesser powers that he doesn't mind tolerating), then he's not going to make a serious attack. Nor did he. Not contradictory.

Kuririn, Gohan and Piccolo didn't instantly die because Freeza was toying with them. When final-form Freeza arrived Gohan was actually going to die until Vegeta shoved Gohan out of the way saving his life. Gohan was going to insta-die. But Bootenks was taking it seriously. Goku blurts out that Gohan needs to find the Potara so they fuse and from the Viz translation Bootenks says "Fuse? Undoubtedly futile. But why take the chance? I'll kill you first." Bootenks rushed Goku to kill him before they could fuse because he doesn't know if he could take a fused Goku and Gohan and doesn't want to risk it. So yes, he did attack seriously to prevent a fusion that could possibly rival him and yes the anime filler of him dodging Bootenks serious attacks was contradictory.

Do Goku and Vegeta defeat Super Buu or does he let them because he's toying with them? I agree with ignoring the part with Popo sparring with the boys, of course (unless we consider them to be just blowing off steam and not doing anything remotely for real; heck, it could have been a quick training session to maintain a SSJ state without using a lot of its power, like how Goku and Gohan learned FPSSJ back during the Cell Saga).

Considering Evil Boo said he was going to kill them right there. I doubt he was toying with them. And considering Evil Boo is around 16x stronger than both of them they should not have been able to kill him off with the blast they did. The blast wouldn't have done any damage.

I agree with not considering the contradictory material. Ignore the Garlic Jr. Saga because its inclusion means wrestling with where and when to put The Dead Zone. On the other hand, I consider Bojack Unbound to be part of the storyline.

Like I said, I do not object to people including storylines in what they perceive the universe to be. What I object to is using storylines that aren't part of the original authors material because they will paint a different perspective on the things. Especially when we talk the strength of characters. Because the person including the filler might be of the mind that Bootenks > SSJ3 Goku > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks. When we know that Toriyama wrote it in the way that Bootenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. As I said earlier on there is a filler piece where Goku out-right states Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is the strongest Boo. But we know in the manga that isn't the case. Like I don't see how you can drag in the whole "Well SSJ3 Goku took out Hirudegarn so he must be stronger than Gotenks and Gohan now." Goku is the main character of the franchise. Of course they are going to make Gotenks and Gohan weaker than him. But that doesn't make it true from Toriyama's perspective, whatever that may be.

As far as we know SSJ3 Goku is still weaker than Gotenks and Gohan in BoG until he goes SSJGod and that is how Toriyama wanted it. But another movie which happens before this one may put Goku above them both because the scriptwriter(who isn't Toriyama) felt it necessary because Goku has to be the person to defeat the bad guy.

On material that doesn't contradict anything but adds clarity or detail, it needs to be considered on what it says. In the manga, the Elder Kai's plan for the Potara is for Gohan (mystically powered up by the Elder Kai himself) and Goku (capable of SSJ3) to fuse as regular Saiyans. They'll be capable of going SSJ, but the Elder Kai didn't think it necessary. Their Saiyan form would have been sufficient.

Well yeah, Gohan's power up puts his base higher than any SSJ3. So Goku's base amplifying a character already several times more powerful than his SSJ3 form would stand a good chance against Bootenks.

Later, Goku has to fuse with Vegeta instead. This was not the Elder Kai's first plan, but he expresses no misgivings about it because the two live to outdo each other. I.e., it is very plausible, based on the manga alone, that Vegetto's Saiyan form would've been able to do the same as the hypothetical Gokan's Saiyan form, replacing Gohan's mystic power-up with Vegeta and Goku's rivalry.

I don't believe that is implied whatsoever. The way it is worded could basically mean that two characters who attempt to outdo each other would be a good fusion because they will continually strive to outdo one and another. Therefore the new character made from the fusion would be a sum of their best parts. In comparison to Gotenks who doesn't take things seriously because there is no rivalry between the two kids. If Goten and Trunks were proper rivals then the result would lead to a serious Gotenks who would actually get something done. Because neither side of the personalities that make Gotenks would accept defeat from the other one.

The anime just illustrates what the manga establishes further. Not contradictory.

What part of the anime are you talking about? Because the whole Gohan and Goku fighting in base once they have fused is in the manga and the line where rivals fusing is the best is also in the manga. Are you saying that because Vegetto fights in his base form in the anime filler and the fact that Rou Kaioshin says the rivalry is definitely strongest is what illustrates it? Because I hate to break it to you but if Toriyama felt they were strong enough to fight Boohan without a transformation he would have made the story that way. The fact that Vegetto goes SSJ straight away in the manga just shows that he needs it. While you say there is no contradiction here, there is. Because you can take it that Vegetto would be strong enough to defeat Boohan in base if you want. But the manga never indicates this so therefore there is a clear divide in perspective of the author and the person who made the anime filler.

Is Vegetto strong enough to defeat Boohan in base? Possibly.

But Vegetto turns SSJ straight away to fight Boohan in the manga. So is it possible he needed to turn SSJ? Yes.

Therefore there is a difference between the manga and the anime. Vegetto is definitely painted as a lot stronger in the anime than he is in the manga because Toriyama made him go SSJ straight away in the manga.

[Tectorman]

I'd establish the dead-bottom of the difference between SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku as SSJ Gotenks being half as strong as SSJ3 Goku, or 2 times stronger than SSJ2 Goku, which gives us enough leeway for Fat Boo to outclass the SSJ2 adults yet still have SSJ3 Goku be able to handle Fat Boo with the relative ease we saw in the manga and the anime. As such. the absolute dead-bottom minimum is that SSJ3 Gotenks is 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Not 2x.

You say x4, but x3.5 would work about as well (nor is there any set rule requiring a whole number). You could say x3.3, and I could say x3.12 would work just as well, and we would both have as much claim to being right. You could say x2.6, and I could say x2.3. Same thing.

That's what I mean. Being stronger than SSJ2 Goku by an unspecified amount means "at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku". At least 2.00(and-on-and-on)0001x. Maybe 2.1x, maybe 2.6x, maybe 3x, maybe 4x, maybe more. But the bottom is 2.0(bar)1x. That's the bottom. The absolute minimum of "Super Gotenks must be stronger than SSJ2 Goku" is "Super Gotenks is not weaker than SSJ2 Goku". Without anything saying by how much, that's the bottom.

Tell me Gotenks IS 4x stronger than Goku again, and I will ask you why exactly 3.9x is under the bar. Possibly, likely, probably? I have no problems with. But IS? Says who?

Considering Goku and Vegeta were exactly even during their fight they both took damage and the battle wasn't short. Fat Boo hit Vegeta only a few times which severely injured Vegeta. You put Fat Boo at 2? You realise that would put Fat Boo as SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, right?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Let's look at the injuries Goku and Vegeta inflict on each other. Torn clothes, bruises, cuts and blood. Both to the same extent, so we call them even. Now, what sort of injuries does Vegeta inflict on Buu (before Buu regenerates them away)? Dents and a misshapen skull. And also a gaping hole in his stomach. More than what Goku suffered. In fact, the last time Goku had an injury like that was when he fought Raditz and died.

So Vegeta's doing more to Buu than what he did to Goku. Making Buu either weaker than SSJ2 Goku or equal to Goku (pre-regeneration, of course). I'm not arguing Fat Buu being weaker than Goku, so what accounts for the difference in hurt? Was Vegeta holding back against Goku?

Well, no and yes. No, Vegeta was fighting Goku with his fullest ability. But, yes, Vegeta's tactics were different against Buu than they were against Goku. Vegeta knew Goku was going away in a day and wanted to savor the battle. Moves and attacks of the same order as the stomach-piercer he hit Buu with would end the fight early (not what Vegeta wants). With Buu, on the other hand, Vegeta had no desire to prolong the battle and thus used more lethal moves.

And then let's look at what Buu does to Vegeta. The big explosion disables Vegeta's arm (which does not regenerate), and then Fat Buu traps him with a blob of his flesh and lays into him with a series of punches until Trunks kicks him away. So at this point I'm seeing dents and blows to the skull vs a series of punches, and a pierced gut vs a disabled arm. Besides the regeneration, what's the difference?

And then we get to the last part of the fight. Vegeta lets loose a massive explosion that kills him and disintegrates Buu, who then comes back. Like I said, Buu's saving grace is the regeneration. Because Goku wanted to tag-team Buu with Vegeta and Gohan's help and because he later says his SSJ2 self wouldn't stand a chance, I'm fine with "above SSJ2". As long as we understand that that just means "not below SSJ2". 2.1, 2.5, 3, 3.4, 4, anywhere on that scale makes as much sense as anywhere else on that scale. But there's no bottom to the scale other than the lowest number, 2.

I'm also talking about minimum. There is no way Vegeta would have received that much damage from a character who is close to him in strength. Vegeta would have not suicide if he thought there was another possible way to defeat him. The fact that Vegeta only saw a suicide bomb as a way of defeating Fat Boo clearly points to him being severely out-matched by Fat Boo. And I feel 2x is a reasonable mount for this, allowing Goku to be 2x stronger than Fat Boo and being able to take him easily. Like he did.

Which puts us at an impasse. I don't call something besides the bottom the bottom. Possibly, likely, probably? Sure. But there's a difference between what we call a reasonable number and what its minimum is.

If you read the story it was Boo's plan to absorb Gotenks because he felt he couldn't beat Gohan without the absorption. But Evil Boo never felt that way with Gotenks. He thought he could deal with him without additional help. Boo naps when the kids lose the fusion instead of out-right killing them to get rid of a threat, if they were more powerful than him. He then spends his time hiding from Gohan to wait out the time period for the boys to be able to re-fuse so he can use their strength to defeat Gohan. All of this paints a picture to me that he wasn't bothered by SSJ3 Gotenks strength as much as he was Gohans. If they were that much of a threat to him he would have gone and hid from the kids until the fusion wore off. He wasn't against fighting them like he was Gohan. Which just goes to show that Gohan is stronger than the kids by enough that it worried Evil Boo. I honestly feel that Gohan is around 2x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. If you look at the fight between SSJ3 Gotenks and Evil Boo, Evil Boo could get hits in and do damage. But he was severely out-classed by Gohan.

Super Buu had no qualms about fighting Gotenks because by now, he's got the measure of just how experienced and serious Gotenks is (not very). This is also how he's able to harm Gotenks when he can't touch Gohan. He also knows Gotenks has a time limit (a key factor because after Gotenks smashes him into the earth with the volleyball attack, Buu does indeed hide until he learns about the time limit; granted, he learns this in short order because Gotenks can't shut up). If the two are close to even, then the one with the regeneration will have the edge, like how Fat Buu beat Vegeta. Also, when the boys are unfused, he knows (1) it'll be an hour before they fuse again (they tell him) and (2) that he can interrupt the dance before they finish (heck, he did so by accident the first time they met).

Again, the story allows Gohan to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. The story also allows Gohan to not be very much above Gotenks, if at all, and his clear superiority is accounted for in other ways. In looking for the minimum numbers, where Gohan could well be 2x Gotenks's power and just as well be 1x his power, one of those is smaller. It's the same argument as above. I agree that it is possibly, likely, probably true that Fat Buu is a 3, Super Gotenks is a 4, and Gohan is above SSJ3 Gotenks. Not "is".

True, SSJ3 Gotenks's power was on par with Buu's. I think slightly over, given that Super Gotenks (sporting an eighth of that power) was completely getting mauled by Buu.

I mistyped here. Super Gotenks was NOT getting mauled by Super Buu, so for Super Gotenks to not get decimated by Super Buu and then fight him with eight times that power, I think it reasonable to give SSJ3 Gotenks the edge and any evenness between the two is due to the twin factors of his regeneration and Gotenks's inexperience.

This is subjective. I put SSJ3 Gotenks below Evil Boo's power but has the advantage in terms of Ki based attacks. We see throughout the story that characters can amplify their Ki through the use of Ki techniques. This allows them to take on enemies much more powerful than themselves. Key examples would be Piccolo against Raditz, Tenshinhan against Cell and Vegeta against Cell. All these characters were severely out-classed by the enemies they were fighting but their techniques which amplified their Ki made up for it. SSJ3 Gotenks is slightly better than Evil Boo because of his Ki based techniques. Even when SSJ Gotenks was up against Evil Boo his Ki based techniques proved extremely effective despite SSJ Gotenks being 8x weaker than Evil Boo.

Yep, it is subjective. As long as we recognize "in the ballpark of each other" as the only confirmed fact and allow for them to actually be slightly weaker or slightly stronger, then we're in agreement.

Trunks statement as far as I'm concerned is a reserved one. He doesn't want to admit that Gohan clearly out-ranks their Gotenks. He is being extremely prideful about it. Just like Vegeta refuses to admit that Goku is stronger than him up until the end.

DBZ ch. 286, page 7. Goten and Trunks have just defused from Fat Gotenks. In the fifth panel, it implies that defused dance-fused characters don't necessarily remember everything about their time fused. And this was when they did nothing but wait out the half-hour with no distractions. So I had doubts about Trunks's comparison of SSJ3 Gotenks and Gohan and they're still there.

In terms of fighting ability I would actually rank Goten and Trunks higher than Gohan. Why? Gohan slacked for 7 years. Meanwhile Goten was sparring with his mother. So he obviously learnt a lot about fighting from her. And Trunks was also with his father in the Training room. I believe in the story Vegeta said he even give Trunks some lessons ready for the Tournament so Trunks could beat Goten, in spite of not like Goku. We also see that Trunks managed to land a hit on Vegeta who is actually a decent amount stronger than Gohan at this point. Gohan also struggled against Goten when they were sparring. So I honestly think Goten + Trunks > Gohan in terms of fighting ability. Vegeta also makes the statement when Gohan is fighting Dabra that he is fighting sloppily and that he had a much better combat form as a kid. In the 7 years due to not training his combat form has gotten much worse. So the fact that Gohan was picking apart Evil Boo was not due to fighting ability. It was just superior power.

I agree with every bit of that up until Gohan trains with the Zeta Sword. He slacked off for seven years, and spent a month training for a martial arts tournament with nothing more than prize money at stake. On the Supreme Kai's planet, he had a much greater need to push himself and commit to his training. But even if that only puts his fighting ability at equal to Goten and Trunks, he's still much more serious and more battle-hardened (after all, except for each other, their respective teacher/parents, and Gohan, they haven't done much actual fighting, unless we're counting Broly; Gohan on the other hand has been to another planet).

Anything that influences power debat in these forums I feel should reference the manga only. Because the manga follows the author's view on the characters strength. Even though he has probably forgotten everything about the universe he's created. I'm not opposed to any material added to lengthen the story. I just believe it belongs in the discussion because anime filler paints a different picture from the manga. In the anime Goku actually calls Pure Boo(Kid Boo) the strongest of the Boo's. If that was the case then Goku wouldn't be able to beat him. The people who added the filler clearly had a different view of the characters strengths compared to Toriyama.

Actually, the manga briefly mentions the same thing. Super Buu regresses to Kid Buu, but when he briefly becomes Bulked Buu, Goku comments that he's getting stronger. Again, the anime is just illustrating in depth what we see in the manga. So it's not necessarily a different view from the author's.

Regarding Bootenks it doesn't matter if you just say Bootenks was as strong as Evil Boo. He still wouldn't have been able to dodge because we know that 2x would outclass a enemy enough for them to not be able to do anything. SSJ3 Goku should not have been able to avoid any of Bootenks attacks. If he can then, somewhere, Goku has become stronger for some random reason. Only way to look at it.

Goku was able to dodge a few of Raditz's attacks, including one that took Piccolo's arm. So, that's another way to look at it.

Kuririn, Gohan and Piccolo didn't instantly die because Freeza was toying with them. When final-form Freeza arrived Gohan was actually going to die until Vegeta shoved Gohan out of the way saving his life. Gohan was going to insta-die. But Bootenks was taking it seriously. Goku blurts out that Gohan needs to find the Potara so they fuse and from the Viz translation Bootenks says "Fuse? Undoubtedly futile. But why take the chance? I'll kill you first." Bootenks rushed Goku to kill him before they could fuse because he doesn't know if he could take a fused Goku and Gohan and doesn't want to risk it. So yes, he did attack seriously to prevent a fusion that could possibly rival him and yes the anime filler of him dodging Bootenks serious attacks was contradictory.

You mean like how Goku offered zero opposition to Raditz and couldn't even dodge him?

Considering Evil Boo said he was going to kill them right there. I doubt he was toying with them. And considering Evil Boo is around 16x stronger than both of them they should not have been able to kill him off with the blast they did. The blast wouldn't have done any damage.

How many times did we hear Frieza swearing death on someone? How many times do we hear that in THIS series? Considering Buu was so much stronger than the two of them put together, the only explanation for them not getting beat down is that he was toying with them.

Like I said, I do not object to people including storylines in what they perceive the universe to be. What I object to is using storylines that aren't part of the original authors material because they will paint a different perspective on the things. Especially when we talk the strength of characters. Because the person including the filler might be of the mind that Bootenks > SSJ3 Goku > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks. When we know that Toriyama wrote it in the way that Bootenks > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. As I said earlier on there is a filler piece where Goku out-right states Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is the strongest Boo. But we know in the manga that isn't the case. Like I don't see how you can drag in the whole "Well SSJ3 Goku took out Hirudegarn so he must be stronger than Gotenks and Gohan now." Goku is the main character of the franchise. Of course they are going to make Gotenks and Gohan weaker than him. But that doesn't make it true from Toriyama's perspective, whatever that may be.

Yes, a person can take certain material a certain way. But an impression of what that material is conveying is not what the material is conveying. I saw Goku being a distraction for his superior-strength son to get the earring for them to fuse. He already has his so Gohan is who needs to be looking for the other one (and he was closer to where it dropped).

As for Hirudegarn, I mention that because either God Mode's power is a direct comparison to Goku's Buu Saga ability, or it's in comparison to some later improvement, if such later improvement can be shown. Hirudegarn shows that it can. Indeed, this may not be what the author intended, but considering the movie later shows Vegeta doing better than Gohan or Goku did and being compared to Goku, not Gohan, it seems like Goku had indeed taken the edge by the beginning of BoG. Does Hirudegarn illustrate this in more detail? Yes. Can we say Wrath of the Dragon was written specifically to illustrate this? Not without time travel. Can we say that Toriyama saw WotD and decided to go with what it established as far as Goku v Gohan as of the beginning of BoG? Seems like it.

As far as we know SSJ3 Goku is still weaker than Gotenks and Gohan in BoG until he goes SSJGod and that is how Toriyama wanted it.

As far as I know it, when Vegeta surpassed Goku, he put Goku in second place, not Gohan.

I don't believe that is implied whatsoever. The way it is worded could basically mean that two characters who attempt to outdo each other would be a good fusion because they will continually strive to outdo one and another. Therefore the new character made from the fusion would be a sum of their best parts. In comparison to Gotenks who doesn't take things seriously because there is no rivalry between the two kids. If Goten and Trunks were proper rivals then the result would lead to a serious Gotenks who would actually get something done. Because neither side of the personalities that make Gotenks would accept defeat from the other one.

Sure, it's implied. Kibitokai is in amazement of Super Vegetto's power and attributes it to the Potara until the Elder Kai tells him it's because of the rivalry. Ergo, their rivalry is considered to be as significant a factor as the Potara. That being a substitute for Gohan's mystic power-up is very plausible.

Is Vegetto strong enough to defeat Boohan in base? Possibly.

But Vegetto turns SSJ straight away to fight Boohan in the manga. So is it possible he needed to turn SSJ? Yes.

Therefore there is a difference between the manga and the anime. Vegetto is definitely painted as a lot stronger in the anime than he is in the manga because Toriyama made him go SSJ straight away in the manga.

He goes SSJ for the extra breathing room. Because merely beating Buu is not The Plan.

Vegetto's plan: rescue his friends.

How? Get absorbed.

Possible complications: Buu might try something besides absorbing him. A great many somethings. He might scream and tear down the dimensions. He might combine attacks such as the Kamikaze Ghost and the Kamehameha. He might liquefy himself and plunge into Vegetto's body. He might do any number of things before he thinks of absorption.

Could Vegetto beat Buu in base? Maybe. But when the fighting got serious, he'd probably have to go all out and doing things like leaving openings or manipulating Buu's tactics would be risky. Much less leeway to not just win, but win a specific way.

He needed to be a brick wall for Buu to bang his head against with strategy after strategy until he was left with the one option. So Vegetto needed to make sure that he could be a brick wall. He didn't need superiority, he needed outright dominance.

Did he know SSJ would be enough to guarantee not being defeated? No. He had no idea his Super form would be able to handle being candy the way he did. But would his base form have had a worse time of it? Most likely.

So we come to a cost-effectiveness analysis. Effectiveness: 50x normal. Cost: since both Vegeta and Goku by this point are, presumably, capable of FPSSJ, it follows that Vegetto is as well. And the Elder Kai's warning against Super Saiyan only pertained to being SSJ pre-fusion. Ergo, no real cost.

Sure, if just killing Buu and wishing the boys back to life were the goal, he may well have just used his base form. Considering that his plan took the Elder Kai by surprise, it's likely the Elder Kai wasn't thinking about rescuing the boys either. If he had, he probably would've suggested to Goku that Gokan would definitely need to go SSJ to force Buutenks's hand to rescue the boys and Piccolo.

That's why Vegetto uses SSJ. The reason he starts out using his base form is just the anime's way of illustrating further the manga.

[sintzu]

At the end we see him use the form again to stop the attack so does that mean that the absorbed god power is temporary and it ran out so he has to use the form again to absorb it again to be able to use it when he loses the form ?

And in Toriyama's interview he said that Goku PROBABLY won't use ssj2/3 again meaning that they'll still give Goku additional power if needed but when will he need it ?

Will there be a limit to how many times he can use or absorb the god power ? which would force him to use 3 again.

[Hitiro]

You say x4, but x3.5 would work about as well (nor is there any set rule requiring a whole number). You could say x3.3, and I could say x3.12 would work just as well, and we would both have as much claim to being right. You could say x2.6, and I could say x2.3. Same thing.

That's what I mean. Being stronger than SSJ2 Goku by an unspecified amount means "at least as strong as SSJ2 Goku". At least 2.00(and-on-and-on)0001x. Maybe 2.1x, maybe 2.6x, maybe 3x, maybe 4x, maybe more. But the bottom is 2.0(bar)1x. That's the bottom. The absolute minimum of "Super Gotenks must be stronger than SSJ2 Goku" is "Super Gotenks is not weaker than SSJ2 Goku". Without anything saying by how much, that's the bottom.

Tell me Gotenks IS 4x stronger than Goku again, and I will ask you why exactly 3.9x is under the bar. Possibly, likely, probably? I have no problems with. But IS? Says who?

The bottom we were discussing is how strong SSJ3 Gotenks is compared to SSJ3 Goku, correct? I'm actually lost here. I was originally saying SSJ Gotenks was 2x stronger than SSJ2 Goku and that SSJ3 Gotenks is 4x SSJ3 Goku. Are you saying SSJ3 Gotenks is only 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku? Because if you are saying SSJ3 Gotenks is only 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku then that would mean that SSJ Gotenks = SSJ2 Goku. It would look like this:

SSJ2 Goku: 2

SSJ Gotenks: 2

SSJ3 Goku: 2*4(4 times stronger than SSJ2 Goku)=8

SSJ3 Gotenks: 2*8(2 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku or 8 times stronger than SSJ form)= 16

Sorry. But you need to decide what you mean. Because if SSJ3 Gotenks is only 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku then SSJ Gotenks is as strong as their dads which is an absurd belief if you want to take Goku saying they will definitely be able to beat Boo seriously. Because Goku is convinced that neither him nor Vegeta could win as SSJ2's. Which further pushes the fact that Gotenks and Boo must be a couple of times stronger than the SSJ2 adults. Or were you saying SSJ Gotenks is 2x stronger than his dads? In which case a SSJ3 Gotenks is 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Considering Goku and Vegeta were exactly even during their fight they both took damage and the battle wasn't short. Fat Boo hit Vegeta only a few times which severely injured Vegeta. You put Fat Boo at 2? You realise that would put Fat Boo as SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, right?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Let's look at the injuries Goku and Vegeta inflict on each other. Torn clothes, bruises, cuts and blood. Both to the same extent, so we call them even. Now, what sort of injuries does Vegeta inflict on Buu (before Buu regenerates them away)? Dents and a misshapen skull. And also a gaping hole in his stomach. More than what Goku suffered. In fact, the last time Goku had an injury like that was when he fought Raditz and died.

So Vegeta's doing more to Buu than what he did to Goku. Making Buu either weaker than SSJ2 Goku or equal to Goku (pre-regeneration, of course). I'm not arguing Fat Buu being weaker than Goku, so what accounts for the difference in hurt? Was Vegeta holding back against Goku?

We don't call Goku and Vegeta even because of their fight. We call Goku and Vegeta even because Goku says they are completely even. And you can't possibly compare Boo's injuries to the Saiyan's though. Their body structures are completely different. Boo is like a sponge. That's the way his body takes hits anyway. Gohan as a SSJ managed to do the same dents in Boo(If you put Boo at SSJ2 Vegeta/Goku's level then Gohan who would be more than 2x weaker than that still put "damage" on him despite that). Even if you're an advocate of Gohan being SSJ2 he is still weaker than Vegeta and Goku by a margin when he attacks Fat Boo. So no. Fat Boo is not just on par with them just because his durability is a lot lower. We've seen bullets cut through Boo too. That doesn't make him extremely weak because in comparison Goku and the gang can tank bullets without effort while Boo's body structure requires him to use Ki to toughen up his body more than a Saiyan or Human.

Fat Boo taking the damage he did is literally due to his body being a sponge like material rather than Humans or Saiyans skin which is a lot tougher.

Well, no and yes. No, Vegeta was fighting Goku with his fullest ability. But, yes, Vegeta's tactics were different against Buu than they were against Goku. Vegeta knew Goku was going away in a day and wanted to savor the battle. Moves and attacks of the same order as the stomach-piercer he hit Buu with would end the fight early (not what Vegeta wants). With Buu, on the other hand, Vegeta had no desire to prolong the battle and thus used more lethal moves.

Goku was trying to end the battle as fast as possible. So it doesn't matter what Vegeta wanted. Goku was trying to knock him out and give him enough damage to stop him. But Goku couldn't do that because they were entirely even. Now if you go to the battle with Boo and Vegeta. Boo was not fighting his fullest whatsoever. Yet he could easily damage Vegeta much more than Goku could during his fight with Vegeta. What does that tell you? That Boo was a couple of times stronger than them both.

And then let's look at what Buu does to Vegeta. The big explosion disables Vegeta's arm (which does not regenerate), and then Fat Buu traps him with a blob of his flesh and lays into him with a series of punches until Trunks kicks him away. So at this point I'm seeing dents and blows to the skull vs a series of punches, and a pierced gut vs a disabled arm. Besides the regeneration, what's the difference?

What's the difference? First of all, Boo's durability does not attribute to anything. Because his body is just that way. Secondly with weak kick Vegeta is spewing up blood. Boo then repeated to smack his face without trying and did considerable damage. Vegeta even admits he is powerful. It is nothing to do with his regenerative powers. He is just strong.

And then we get to the last part of the fight. Vegeta lets loose a massive explosion that kills him and disintegrates Buu, who then comes back. Like I said, Buu's saving grace is the regeneration. Because Goku wanted to tag-team Buu with Vegeta and Gohan's help and because he later says his SSJ2 self wouldn't stand a chance, I'm fine with "above SSJ2". As long as we understand that that just means "not below SSJ2". 2.1, 2.5, 3, 3.4, 4, anywhere on that scale makes as much sense as anywhere else on that scale. But there's no bottom to the scale other than the lowest number, 2.

Are these numbers supposed to represent times? Or are they supposed to represent something else? Piccolo says when he looks at the aftermath of Vegeta's explosion that "anything less would have allowed Boo to regenerate. So he sacrificed himself" then we have Boo regenerate. So whatever output Vegeta's explosion was to kill Boo was not enough. And as we established certain Ki based attacks, specifically techniques like the Kamehameha, have a higher Ki output than the individual. Vegeta output his Ki to the very limit which destroyed his body and thus means:

Fat Boo > Vegeta's Explosion >>> SSJ2 Vegeta

It has been established that a certain amount of Ki above the enemies would eradicate them from the world. That was the whole point of getting someone strong enough to kill Boo. Because it needs a Ki output above Boo's.

Which puts us at an impasse. I don't call something besides the bottom the bottom. Possibly, likely, probably? Sure. But there's a difference between what we call a reasonable number and what its minimum is.

No, the minimum is actually a reasonable number. It actually has to be possible for it to be the minimum. You are decreasing Boo down to the level of the adult SSJ2's which makes no sense. Because we know ourselves the fight would be even, not one-sided like we saw with Vegeta. Below the minimum is impossibility. The minimum is an absolute. If you're going to say the minimum doesn't need to be a reasonable number then by your definition I can say that the minimum level to defeat Boo is Kuririn's level. By the facts we're going by Boo is definitely stronger than the SSJ2 adults.

Super Buu had no qualms about fighting Gotenks because by now, he's got the measure of just how experienced and serious Gotenks is (not very). This is also how he's able to harm Gotenks when he can't touch Gohan. He also knows Gotenks has a time limit (a key factor because after Gotenks smashes him into the earth with the volleyball attack, Buu does indeed hide until he learns about the time limit; granted, he learns this in short order because Gotenks can't shut up). If the two are close to even, then the one with the regeneration will have the edge, like how Fat Buu beat Vegeta. Also, when the boys are unfused, he knows (1) it'll be an hour before they fuse again (they tell him) and (2) that he can interrupt the dance before they finish (heck, he did so by accident the first time they met).

Problem is Boo literally doesn't see Gotenks as a threat. Whereas Gohan is. We know that it takes a certain amount of power to erase Boo from existence. And Boo feared Gohan because in all likelihood he was powerful enough to do that. How Fat Boo beat Vegeta was purely down to Boo being superior, even without the regeneration. Boo takes damage because he knows himself that he doesn't have to worry about it too much. If that regeneration was removed then Boo would still beat down Vegeta. If the boys hadn't of saved Vegeta then he would have been dead prior to his sacrifice. Boo was literally not attempting in the fight and still had superiority. Regeneration aside. Boo knew of the time limit before Gotenks fusion was up. After he found out about it he launched a blast at Gotenks. Which Gotenks retaliated to after. He then came up out of the ground and continued to attack. Boo only hid when Gohan showed up until the boys could fuse again so he could absorb them.

Again, the story allows Gohan to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. The story also allows Gohan to not be very much above Gotenks, if at all, and his clear superiority is accounted for in other ways. In looking for the minimum numbers, where Gohan could well be 2x Gotenks's power and just as well be 1x his power, one of those is smaller. It's the same argument as above. I agree that it is possibly, likely, probably true that Fat Buu is a 3, Super Gotenks is a 4, and Gohan is above SSJ3 Gotenks. Not "is".

You can't say that Gohan is "possibly" above SSJ3 Gotenks. We get a lines in the manga several times stating it outright that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Boo also only see's Gohan as a threat because he had planned to absorb Gotenks to deal with him. Whereas he was perfectly fine just fighting against Gotenks. The fact of the matter is that Gohan "is" stronger than Gotenks. You can debate by how much but he is still above Gotenks. Also. It would be 1.x times more powerful. Not 1x. Because 1x1 = 1. If you were to say he's 1.1x more powerful then that is a valid number.

DBZ ch. 286, page 7. Goten and Trunks have just defused from Fat Gotenks. In the fifth panel, it implies that defused dance-fused characters don't necessarily remember everything about their time fused. And this was when they did nothing but wait out the half-hour with no distractions. So I had doubts about Trunks's comparison of SSJ3 Gotenks and Gohan and they're still there.

The page you are on about they were questioned about how the fusion "felt". With the follow-up question "you don't remember?" These questions were never answered and we can go as far to say that they just don't remember how the fusion felt rather than them remembering nothing about the fusion. The fusion was also a failed attempt. So you can't compare it to a successful attempt either. We don't know the effects of failing a fusion. You may have your doubts about Trunks' comaprison of SSJ3 Gotenks and Gohan. But Goten states it adamantly that Gohan is stronger. Trunks just didn't want to admit by how much. Because as I said he is prideful, like his father.

I agree with every bit of that up until Gohan trains with the Zeta Sword. He slacked off for seven years, and spent a month training for a martial arts tournament with nothing more than prize money at stake. On the Supreme Kai's planet, he had a much greater need to push himself and commit to his training. But even if that only puts his fighting ability at equal to Goten and Trunks, he's still much more serious and more battle-hardened (after all, except for each other, their respective teacher/parents, and Gohan, they haven't done much actual fighting, unless we're counting Broly; Gohan on the other hand has been to another planet).

Even if you put Gohan above the boys in-terms of fighting prowess. The "combined" fighting prowess of the the boys would exceed Gohan's. But all Gohan gained on the Kaioshin's planet was extra strength. Not fighting prowess. I can improve my "arm strength" by lifting weights. That doesn't mean I'm going to be better at martial arts. It just means I can lift a heavier weight or I can punch a little harder. Big whoop. Against a seasoned martial artist that is nothing. Swinging the sword around did not improve is martial arts form or make him any less sloppy than he was when he thought Dabra. Even if you put Gohan as equal to Goten and Trunks in fighting ability Gotenks is going to be above him because Gotenks has the collective martial arts experience of both the boys. Meaning that Gotenks has double the fighting experience of Gohan.

Actually, the manga briefly mentions the same thing. Super Buu regresses to Kid Buu, but when he briefly becomes Bulked Buu, Goku comments that he's getting stronger. Again, the anime is just illustrating in depth what we see in the manga. So it's not necessarily a different view from the author's.

Yes, S. Kaioshin Boo is stronger than Evil Boo. That was never in debate. But it is a clearly different view from the author as the line following this when Boo reverts from S. Kaioshin Boo Goku says that they did it and that this way they'll be able to manage something. If Pure Boo was actually stronger again than Evil Boo then Goku would have not said this.

The anime purposely power Pure Boo and Goku up to make them seem the strongest in the anime. Whereas most of the fan base know that this is not possible. Even logically speaking Goku says they couldn't beat Evil Boo and if Pure Boo was stronger then logic dictates that Goku still wouldn't win. Therefore when Goku says "We did it!" he is clearly saying that they managed to weaken Boo. That was what they were attempting, as we know. So yes. It is a different view from the authors because the author never said Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo. The anime isn't illustrating "in depth" what we see in the manga. They are "misinterpreting" what was said by only reading half of it. And we know that the anime has no qualms taking apart the manga because Mr. Popo solo'ing to SSJ children who were actually attempting to beat the hell out of him is a perfect example of their lack of care for the characters power levels.

Goku was able to dodge a few of Raditz's attacks, including one that took Piccolo's arm. So, that's another way to look at it.

Yes, Goku dodged a blast that was from Raditz who admitted was going easy on them. Raditz said right at the start that he was going to increase his power bit by bit. The only attack Goku dodged was Raditz Ki blast. And Goku was above Piccolo in strength so if Goku barely managed to dodge it from a distance away then Piccolo would have an even more difficult time.

You mean like how Goku offered zero opposition to Raditz and couldn't even dodge him?

You need to go back and read the fight. That is exactly what happened. Goku only managed to dodge one attack. The Ki blast Raditz launched. And Raditz wasn't even fighting seriously. Every blow before and after the Ki attack hit him.

How many times did we hear Freeza swearing death on someone? How many times do we hear that in THIS series? Considering Buu was so much stronger than the two of them put together, the only explanation for them not getting beat down is that he was toying with them.

Freeza swore death on his enemies. Why does that mean he has to rush it? Freeza had the luxury and time to afford making them suffer as much as possible. Considering Bootenks. He had a legitimate reason for going all out. He didn't want to take a chance on the fusion proving stronger than him. So he was serious. The only explanation for them not getting beat down is that it was filler. And thus didn't happen. In the manga the fusion wears off before he can even attack Goku. And that was the way the author intended it to happen. But the anime decides to butcher it and have Goku hold his own against a serious Bootenks who doesn't want a fusion rivalling him appearing again.

Yes, a person can take certain material a certain way. But an impression of what that material is conveying is not what the material is conveying. I saw Goku being a distraction for his superior-strength son to get the earring for them to fuse. He already has his so Gohan is who needs to be looking for the other one (and he was closer to where it dropped).

The material conveys that Bootenks wants them dead so they can't fuse and become a fusion that can beat him. But Goku still managed to hold off Bootenks in SSJ3 despite the fact that Bootenks wanted to kill them before they had a chance to fuse. In this instance the anime filler actually breaks what the author had intended and goes further by making it seem like Goku is actually better than Gohan and Gotenks. You may see it as Goku being just a distraction. But it is clear that Bootenks did not want a new fusion to happen as he says so before he attacks Goku. And then Goku proceeds to dodge despite the vast difference in their respective strengths. They handled the source material terribly.

As for Hirudegarn, I mention that because either God Mode's power is a direct comparison to Goku's Buu Saga ability, or it's in comparison to some later improvement, if such later improvement can be shown. Hirudegarn shows that it can. Indeed, this may not be what the author intended, but considering the movie later shows Vegeta doing better than Gohan or Goku did and being compared to Goku, not Gohan, it seems like Goku had indeed taken the edge by the beginning of BoG. Does Hirudegarn illustrate this in more detail? Yes. Can we say Wrath of the Dragon was written specifically to illustrate this? Not without time travel. Can we say that Toriyama saw WotD and decided to go with what it established as far as Goku v Gohan as of the beginning of BoG? Seems like it.

Such improvement is shown by people who aren't the original author. Toriyama may have a completely different idea for how much improvement Goku can achieve within the 5 year time-frame. You can't just say "Well, Goku improved by this much with Hirudegarn. So he must be able to improve by this much in BoG." No. Toriyama decides how much improvement Goku achieves. And nobody outside of him has a valid illustration because at the end of the day Toriyama's view is above everyone's. And no, you can't say Toriyama looked at WotD and decided that's how much Goku can achieve up to BoG either. Because, as we know, Toriyama would not look at other movies for references. He would use his manga as source material. Because the whole movie is based on the manga. Not the movies. Hirudegarn illustrates nothing in more detail apart from Toei blatantly making Goku extremely more powerful than he should be. That is how they like to do the movies.

As far as I know it, when Vegeta surpassed Goku, he put Goku in second place, not Gohan.

As far as I'm aware just because Vegeta has surpassed Goku does not mean that Goku is number one amongst the fighters. It can merely mean that Beerus is doing a comparison against pure blooded Saiyan's. Beerus goes on to say that Vegeta and Goku can go on to become a challenge to him. Why not Gohan or Goten or Trunks? Because they would all be capable of SSJGod too. How are we not to know whether Gohan could become the strongest of the SSJGods?

While the movie does pin the focus on Goku and Vegeta. Being pure blooded Saiyans. It doesn't mean that the half Saiyans can't be as good or better than them. This is just how the movie went. And unlike the move WotD which just makes SSJ3 Goku randomly stronger than the kids. This movie tackles where their power levels are without actually showing a difference between all the strong characters. Goku just becomes the strongest because of SSJGod. Other than that we get no other inkling. You can't say that one single line in the movie which only mentions Goku is a reason to put Goku above everyone. In fact, it was Roshi who said "he finally surpassed Goku." Given the context of the sentence and the character we know that Vegeta has always wanted to surpass Goku and in that moment he did. So it is perfectly understandable why Roshi only mentions Goku. Because Roshi knows its been Vegeta's goal to surpass Goku as rivals.

Sure, it's implied. Kibitokai is in amazement of Super Vegetto's power and attributes it to the Potara until the Elder Kai tells him it's because of the rivalry. Ergo, their rivalry is considered to be as significant a factor as the Potara. That being a substitute for Gohan's mystic power-up is very plausible.

I've always read it as if they weren't Rivals their fusion wouldn't be this strong because they wouldn't be trying to out-do each other up till the point of this fusion. Both Goku and Vegeta continued to work on their power even after they surpassed Gohan's power back at the Cell Games because they knew they didn't want the other person stronger than themselves. If they didn't have a rivalry they would have probably slowed down after they surpassed Gohan. Their rivalry has gotten them to this point where they can fuse as two of the strongest martial arts fighters in the universe. Rather than their rivalry gives some sort of mysterious boost. Their rivalry is what made them this strong so far and the resulting fusion speaks the results of both of them trying to out-do each other.

He goes SSJ for the extra breathing room. Because merely beating Buu is not The Plan.

Vegetto's plan: rescue his friends.

How? Get absorbed.

Possible complications: Buu might try something besides absorbing him. A great many somethings. He might scream and tear down the dimensions. He might combine attacks such as the Kamikaze Ghost and the Kamehameha. He might liquefy himself and plunge into Vegetto's body. He might do any number of things before he thinks of absorption.

Could Vegetto beat Buu in base? Maybe. But when the fighting got serious, he'd probably have to go all out and doing things like leaving openings or manipulating Buu's tactics would be risky. Much less leeway to not just win, but win a specific way.

The problem is this is all conjecture. We don't know that Vegetto could win in base unless in the manga Akira Toriyama had him fight in base as well. But the anime make it seem like he can. But there is no evidence to say this. We know for a fact that in the anime Vegetto can take Boohan in base. But in the manga it is impossible to know. Therefore there is a clear divide here as to the strength of Vegetto. On one hand we've got the anime practically certifying he is that strong. On the other hand we have Toriyama turning him into a SSJ. Either because Vegetto needs the 50x boost to be above Boohan. Which I believe. Or as you say he needs the breathing room. But there is no denying that the anime is probably making out that Vegetto is stronger than he is in the manga. You can put whatever excuse for Vegetto going SSJ you want with the manga. But it is unclear. As far as anyone is concerned he could just need the transformation. And therefore the anime paints a different picture from what the author and the manga are showing us.

He needed to be a brick wall for Buu to bang his head against with strategy after strategy until he was left with the one option. So Vegetto needed to make sure that he could be a brick wall. He didn't need superiority, he needed outright dominance.

Did he know SSJ would be enough to guarantee not being defeated? No. He had no idea his Super form would be able to handle being candy the way he did. But would his base form have had a worse time of it? Most likely.

So we come to a cost-effectiveness analysis. Effectiveness: 50x normal. Cost: since both Vegeta and Goku by this point are, presumably, capable of FPSSJ, it follows that Vegetto is as well. And the Elder Kai's warning against Super Saiyan only pertained to being SSJ pre-fusion. Ergo, no real cost.

Sure, if just killing Buu and wishing the boys back to life were the goal, he may well have just used his base form. Considering that his plan took the Elder Kai by surprise, it's likely the Elder Kai wasn't thinking about rescuing the boys either. If he had, he probably would've suggested to Goku that Gokan would definitely need to go SSJ to force Buutenks's hand to rescue the boys and Piccolo.

That's why Vegetto uses SSJ. The reason he starts out using his base form is just the anime's way of illustrating further the manga.

No, this is your own interpretation of why Vegetto uses SSJ. Which could be completely different from what Toriyama was thinking at the time. It could be a possibility. But there is also the possibility that Vegetto just wasn't strong enough without the SSJ form. The anime is not illustrating further the manga. The anime is saying "Well, we don't know if Vegetto is using it for complete dominance or if he actually needs the SSJ transformation. But we'll just pretend Vegetto is strong enough in base." It's running with an idea that isn't clarified in the manga. And as such it isn't illustrating anything.

I can go and say the anime is illustrating futher that Mr. Popo being stronger than 2 SSJ kids than in the manga. Because that's what the anime filler shows. But that isn't illustrating it further is it? Because Toriyama never puts that idea into our heads. If the studio were to take out the whole base Vegetto fight before airing it and you saw the anime without that. Would you still say that Vegetto doesn't need SSJ? Exactly. It's because the anime added base Vegetto holding up a fight with Boohan that you think Vegetto can put up a fight without using SSJ. Had that not be in there you might be of the similar opinion as me that Vegetto needs the SSJ form. So at this point the anime is just putting its own ideas into your head. It isn't further illustrating a point.

That is the problem with the anime filler. It isn't illustrating the manga's point further. It is rolling with its own points that you think are illustrating a deeper understanding of the manga.

[sintzu]

I don't know how it's said in Japanese but in Funi's dub Beerus said the form's power pushed goku's to a new level which doesn't mean that the Kaioken and Ssj 1-3 multipliers are changed or can't be used.

So Goku can still use ssj3 and get a 400× power up on top of his already powered up base form.

[Hitiro]

I don't know how it's said in Japanese but in Funi's dub Beerus said the form's power pushed goku's to a new level which doesn't mean that the Kaioken and Ssj 1-3 multipliers are changed or can't be used.

So Goku can still use ssj3 and get a 400× power up on top of his already powered up base form.

Think the debate is that from the guides it says the SSJ forms draw out the hidden power. But if Goku is close to that potential the forms lose their effectiveness. So if Goku's maximum output was 400x the level he was at in the Boo Saga. Then if his base form increased in power to 200x he would only have 2x more potential to dish out. Making SSJ2 and SSJ3 useless. But I guess he can just improve by taking on more God Ki. As once he maxes out his regular Ki he can further amplify it with the extra reserve of God Ki.

[Kamiccolo9]

As I see it, the mortal and god ki are totally separate. So Goku transforming wouldn't increase his strength enough to justify the drawbacks of the forms.
So..... Base Goku-1
SSJ-50
SSJ2-100
SSJ3-400
SSJG-100000
Base(Post BOG)-90000
SSJ-90050
SSJ2-90100
SSJ3-90400

Something like that.

[Hitiro]

As I see it, the mortal and god ki are totally separate. So Goku transforming wouldn't increase his strength enough to justify the drawbacks of the forms.
So..... Base Goku-1
SSJ-50
SSJ2-100
SSJ3-400
SSJG-100000
Base(Post BOG)-90000
SSJ-90050
SSJ2-90100
SSJ3-90400

Something like that.

Are you saying that Base(Post BoG) with - 900000 is Goku that's got 1 regular Ki and 89999 God Ki? From my understanding of what was said in the movie that Goku made the Ki in his own. As in he converted the God Ki into his regular Ki which made his base Ki stronger. But I honestly don't think Goku is at his limit with his regular Ki despite him having absorbed the God Ki into his being. Beerus seems to think that Goku and Vegeta will eventually surpass him. So they still have a lot of hidden power(potential) left for the multipliers to still be effective.

[Low Tone G]

As I see it, the mortal and god ki are totally separate. So Goku transforming wouldn't increase his strength enough to justify the drawbacks of the forms.
So..... Base Goku-1
SSJ-50
SSJ2-100
SSJ3-400
SSJG-100000
Base(Post BOG)-90000
SSJ-90050
SSJ2-90100
SSJ3-90400

Something like that.

Are you saying that Base(Post BoG) with - 900000 is Goku that's got 1 regular Ki and 89999 God Ki? From my understanding of what was said in the movie that Goku made the Ki in his own. As in he converted the God Ki into his regular Ki which made his base Ki stronger. But I honestly don't think Goku is at his limit with his regular Ki despite him having absorbed the God Ki into his being. Beerus seems to think that Goku and Vegeta will eventually surpass him. So they still have a lot of hidden power(potential) left for the multipliers to still be effective.

I do think that he referred to regular Ki. But I do not think that Goku had regular Ki after absorbing, because he could still sense Beerus' power, and the difference between his and Beerus'. I really think that Goku has some ways to develop as a God.

[Hitiro]

I do think that he referred to regular Ki. But I do not think that Goku had regular Ki after absorbing, because he could still sense Beerus' power, and the difference between his and Beerus'. I really think that Goku has some ways to develop as a God.

How do you know he could still sense Beerus' Ki exactly? Nothing is stated about Goku sensing his Ki after he lost SSJGod.

[Low Tone G]

I do think that he referred to regular Ki. But I do not think that Goku had regular Ki after absorbing, because he could still sense Beerus' power, and the difference between his and Beerus'. I really think that Goku has some ways to develop as a God.

How do you know he could still sense Beerus' Ki exactly? Nothing is stated about Goku sensing his Ki after he lost SSJGod.

Goku said that Beerus was out of his league, and he was then just a Super Saiyan.

[Kamiccolo9]

I do think that he referred to regular Ki. But I do not think that Goku had regular Ki after absorbing, because he could still sense Beerus' power, and the difference between his and Beerus'. I really think that Goku has some ways to develop as a God.

How do you know he could still sense Beerus' Ki exactly? Nothing is stated about Goku sensing his Ki after he lost SSJGod.

He teleports around Beerus while he's a Super Saiyan.

[Hitiro]

He teleports around Beerus while he's a Super Saiyan.

Well, while he's a base Saiyan too. I would think that Goku's teleport doesn't have to rely on a single persons Ki to move about. He could use his friends Ki's to move about an enemy. For instance, if Goku had to fight an android who has no Ki I would think he could just use Gohan or Vegeta as a waypoint and teleport in regards to their position. Though I guess it is likely he maintained some God Ki when he lost the form. I still think he converted it to Regular Ki though.

[Low Tone G]

He teleports around Beerus while he's a Super Saiyan.

Well, while he's a base Saiyan too. I would think that Goku's teleport doesn't have to rely on a single persons Ki to move about. He could use his friends Ki's to move about an enemy. For instance, if Goku had to fight an android who has no Ki I would think he could just use Gohan or Vegeta as a waypoint and teleport in regards to their position. Though I guess it is likely he maintained some God Ki when he lost the form. I still think he converted it to Regular Ki though.

Maybe he did, but that remnant it was enough for him to not notice that he has lost significant power, and also being just a Super Saiyan being aboe Earth, he wass able to say that Beerus is still stronger than himself. I that movie is highlt implied that only the ones who possess God Ki is able to sense and read the power level of the other God Being. This makes me think, like Beerus was right saying, that Goku has absorbed the most of the power, and also made his own, maintaining it, using it in his Super Saiyan form, just because he trained the most in it since the Frieza saga. But Goku did not notice anything, he most likely believed that he was just taking the fight more seriously as a SSJ-God when he suddenly turned Super Saiyan, being he used before about 80% of his power. If that Ki was converted into regular Ki, then everyone should have noticed that Goku was immensly powerful, but only Piccolo observed that Goku is just a Super Saiyan, but said nothing about his power, he could only see him being one.

Futhermore, I really believe that we should call that Super Saiyan Goku the true Super Saiyan God, being that base Saiyans can also turn one, being that the first Saiyan God wasn't a Super Saiyan(most likely, if he was about to loose against Oozarus)! In other words Goku was a Super Saiyan but powered with God Ki, and before that SSJ God form was wore off, he was just a Saiyan God, like how Shenlon refers.

[Hitiro]

Maybe he did, but that remnant it was enough for him to not notice that he has lost significant power, and also being just a Super Saiyan being aboe Earth, he wass able to say that Beerus is still stronger than himself. I that movie is highlt implied that only the ones who possess God Ki is able to sense and read the power level of the other God Being. This makes me think, like Beerus was right saying, that Goku has absorbed the most of the power, and also made his own, maintaining it, using it in his Super Saiyan form, just because he trained the most in it since the Freeza saga. But Goku did not notice anything, he most likely believed that he was just taking the fight more seriously as a SSJ-God when he suddenly turned Super Saiyan, being he used before about 80% of his power. If that Ki was converted into regular Ki, then everyone should have noticed that Goku was immensly powerful, but only Piccolo observed that Goku is just a Super Saiyan, but said nothing about his power, he could only see him being one.

Futhermore, I really believe that we should call that Super Saiyan Goku the true Super Saiyan God, being that base Saiyans can also turn one, being that the first Saiyan God wasn't a Super Saiyan(most likely, if he was about to loose against Oozarus)! In other words Goku was a Super Saiyan but powered with God Ki, and before that SSJ God form was wore off, he was just a Saiyan God, like how Shenlon refers.

I actually see it as Goku losing the SSJGod form and the God Ki tailing off while he was in base form. As he absorbed the Ki into his regular Ki supply he transformed into a SSJ. The God Ki dropped off enough so that when he transformed into a SSJ the form made up for the loss of the God Ki and the subsequent Ki he had absorbed. So I see it like this:

SSJGod Goku: 8

Base Goku (God Ki currently vanishing/being absorbed into Regular Ki): 7

Base Goku (After God Ki vanished + God Ki absorbed into regular Ki): 0.14

SSJ Goku: 7

Or something along those lines.

[xmysticgohanx]

I guess that kinda makes sense with what happened after the ten year time skip

[Low Tone G]

Maybe he did, but that remnant it was enough for him to not notice that he has lost significant power, and also being just a Super Saiyan being aboe Earth, he wass able to say that Beerus is still stronger than himself. I that movie is highlt implied that only the ones who possess God Ki is able to sense and read the power level of the other God Being. This makes me think, like Beerus was right saying, that Goku has absorbed the most of the power, and also made his own, maintaining it, using it in his Super Saiyan form, just because he trained the most in it since the Freeza saga. But Goku did not notice anything, he most likely believed that he was just taking the fight more seriously as a SSJ-God when he suddenly turned Super Saiyan, being he used before about 80% of his power. If that Ki was converted into regular Ki, then everyone should have noticed that Goku was immensly powerful, but only Piccolo observed that Goku is just a Super Saiyan, but said nothing about his power, he could only see him being one.

Futhermore, I really believe that we should call that Super Saiyan Goku the true Super Saiyan God, being that base Saiyans can also turn one, being that the first Saiyan God wasn't a Super Saiyan(most likely, if he was about to loose against Oozarus)! In other words Goku was a Super Saiyan but powered with God Ki, and before that SSJ God form was wore off, he was just a Saiyan God, like how Shenlon refers.

I actually see it as Goku losing the SSJGod form and the God Ki tailing off while he was in base form. As he absorbed the Ki into his regular Ki supply he transformed into a SSJ. The God Ki dropped off enough so that when he transformed into a SSJ the form made up for the loss of the God Ki and the subsequent Ki he had absorbed. So I see it like this:

SSJGod Goku: 8

Base Goku (God Ki currently vanishing/being absorbed into Regular Ki): 7

Base Goku (After God Ki vanished + God Ki absorbed into regular Ki): 0.14

SSJ Goku: 7

Or something along those lines.

I guess I can see your point, but Base Goku was also capable to fight Beerus on par, and he could also keep up with his incresed speed.(of course he used IT too, but he could dodge Beerus' attacks in Base)

Your theory can make sense if the absorbing process wasn't instantaneous, but a relatively slower one, and Goku was run of most power when he powered up to SSJ when the rocks of the cave were about to beat him down. In that case he should be able to sense Beerus' with that low God Ki remnant too, but that wouldn't explain the fact that Goku was able to transform once again into SSJ God, and able to overpower Beerus' attack, if he has run out of that much Ki. The only way that Goku was able to do that that he made reverse process and transformed that SSJ based normal Ki into a Godly one. But Goku didn't know how he did that. I personally would remain with the theory that Goku had Godly Ki during the whole fight.

So,I see it more like this:
First SSJ God Goku 100%:6
SSJ God Goku 80%: 5
Base Goku 95%: 5.4 (taking the fight a bit more seriously, but still didn't fight at 100% of power)
SSJ Goku 100%: 5.9 (taking the fight seriously and put up a better fight)
SSJ God Goku 100% (2nd transformation): 7.1(zenkai or some of latent power unleashed as Super Saiyan God, or both)

I personally see that Goku has absorbed and made his own the God Ki's 90%+ as Beerus said Goku power didn't drop much in power after loosing that form. Maybe he should have added that after transforming into SSJ Goku's power was mostly restored, but he did not say such a thing. As Goku was able to read Beerus' power level using his SSJ form in space makes me think that Goku should have God Ki then, because otherwise he couldn't sense him.

[Hitiro]

I guess I can see your point, but Base Goku was also capable to fight Beerus on par, and he could also keep up with his incresed speed.(of course he used IT too, but he could dodge Beerus' attacks in Base)

Your theory can make sense if the absorbing process wasn't instantaneous, but a relatively slower one, and Goku was run of most power when he powered up to SSJ when the rocks of the cave were about to beat him down. In that case he should be able to sense Beerus' with that low God Ki remnant too, but that wouldn't explain the fact that Goku was able to transform once again into SSJ God, and able to overpower Beerus' attack, if he has run out of that much Ki. The only way that Goku was able to do that that he made reverse process and transformed that SSJ based normal Ki into a Godly one. But Goku didn't know how he did that. I personally would remain with the theory that Goku had Godly Ki during the whole fight.

So,I see it more like this:
First SSJ God Goku 100%:6
SSJ God Goku 80%: 5
Base Goku 95%: 5.4 (taking the fight a bit more seriously, but still didn't fight at 100% of power)
SSJ Goku 100%: 5.9 (taking the fight seriously and put up a better fight)
SSJ God Goku 100% (2nd transformation): 7.1(zenkai or some of latent power unleashed as Super Saiyan God, or both)

I personally see that Goku has absorbed and made his own the God Ki's 90%+ as Beerus said Goku power didn't drop much in power after loosing that form. Maybe he should have added that after transforming into SSJ Goku's power was mostly restored, but he did not say such a thing. As Goku was able to read Beerus' power level using his SSJ form in space makes me think that Goku should have God Ki then, because otherwise he couldn't sense him.

Think you need to re-read my post. I actually said that the absorbing process wasn't instantaneous.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough? Goku held his own in base while the God Ki was in the process of vanishing. It only completely went away and was absorbed into his regular Ki by the time he went SSJ. Obviously, otherwise SSJ Goku would probably be marginally stronger than SSJGod Goku if the Ki hadn't transferred. Unless you believe that the SSJ form doesn't amplify God Ki. In which case by the time Goku had finished absorbing all the God Ki into his regular Ki he was 50x weaker than his SSJGod form. Which is practically the same whether he kept some God Ki and that got amplified or he just lost it all and it was converted to regular Ki instead.